Calvinism Clearly Refuted

[Hammster]

Nope. None of the references are from the immediate context of Jn. 3:16.

Are you saying that context may change the meaning of a word?

 

[CmRoddy]

Are you saying that context may change the meaning of a word?

Almost.... there.... just need to.... push a bit harder.... *groans in pain while pushing*

 

[Robert Pate]

It is interesting how Archie tells us to map it out and when we do, it's obvious that the term "world" is not being used in the same way by John.

Hey, Archie. I am pretty positive that there are certain words you use in your everyday life (be it in personal conversation or on the internet) that, although it may be the same word, they have different meanings in different contexts.

I'm willing to bet that if I took the time to pick one word and I went through your posts, I would be able to demonstrate that you do use the same word to mean different things in different contexts.

Of course, I will not waste my time doing such a thing, but this is true of anyone who spends a lot of time talking and writing. I know its true for me! I would not want anyone to abuse my writings by saying, "Oh, this word always means this whenever Roddy uses them." It's an unfair abuse of the author.

All of the scripture that I listed is based upon John 3:16. Jesus is the savior of THE WHOLE WORLD because he loves the WORLD. What this means is that salvation has been provided for the WHOLE WORLD not for just some, but for all.

 

[CmRoddy]

All of the scripture that I listed is based upon John 3:16. Jesus is the savior of THE WHOLE WORLD because he loves the WORLD. What this means is that salvation has been provided for the WHOLE WORLD not for just some, but for all.

You are assuming that John 3:16 is speaking of every individual, but you have yet to give us an exegesis of John 3:16 to prove this as true. Of course, Calvinists can exegete the entirety of John 3 and demonstrate how your interpretation is wrong, but I think it's your turn to step up to the mound and give us some solid, verse by verse, exegesis.

 

[cygnusx1]

All of the scripture that I listed is based upon John 3:16. Jesus is the savior of THE WHOLE WORLD because he loves the WORLD. What this means is that salvation has been provided for the WHOLE WORLD not for just some, but for all.

CAN YOU be more explicit , what exactly has Christ achieved ?

what is meant bv salvation being made or provided , what has God done ?

 

[archierieus]

John 1:10, He was in the world, and the world was made by him, AND THE WORLD KNEW HIM NOT.

John 1:29, The next day John sees Jesus comoing to him and says, Behold the Lamb of God that takes away THE SIN OF THE WORLD.

John 3:17, For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, BUT THAT THE WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED.

John 4:42, For we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.

John 6:33, For the bread of God is he that comes down from heaven and gives LIFE INTO THE WORLD.

John 6:51, I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF ANY MAN eat of this bread, he shall live forever and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I WILL GIVE FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD.

John 8:12, I am the light of THE WORLD.

John 8:23, I am not of this WORLD.

John 9:5, As long as I am in the WORLD I AM THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD.

John 9:39, For judgment I am come INTO THIS WORLD.

John 12:25, He that loves his life shall lose it; and he that hates his life in THIS WORLD shall keep it unto life eternal.

John 12:47, If ANY MAN hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not TO JUDGE THE WORLD, BUT TO SAVE THE WORLD.

John 14:30, Hereafter I will not talk much with you; for THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD comes and has nothing in me.

John 16:8, And when he is come (the Holy Spirit) he will reprove the WORLD of sin, and of judgment.

John 16:11, Of judgment because THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD is judged.

John 16:28, I am come forth from the Father, and have come into the WORLD: again, I leave THE WORLD, and go to the Father.

John 16:33, These things I have spoken that you might have peace. IN THE WORLD you shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer I have overcome THE WORLD.

John 17:5, And now Father glorify me with yourself, with the glory that I had with you BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

John 17:9, I pray not for THE WORLD, but for them which you have given me, for they are yours.

John 17:18, As you have sent me into THE WORLD, even so I send them into THE WORLD.

Sorry I got carried away with all of the scripture about THE WORLD.

Thanks, I am just now changing the brake pads on my car, will get back to this later.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

CAN YOU be more explicit , what exactly has Christ achieved ?

what is meant bv salvation being made or provided , what has God done ?

Salvation from the Death and Hades maybe?
The OC Temple/Priesthood/sacrifices was the only way the OC Jews/Israelites had to pay for their sins.

Reve 19:1 After these I hear as sound a great throng vast in the heaven saying "allelouia the Salvation and the glory and the power of the God of us"

 

[CmRoddy]

Thanks, I am just now changing the brake pads on my car, will get back to this later.

You know, I see you saying "will get back to this/that later" quite a bit but you never seem to do that. You have yet to even attempt to comment on this post about free-will and man's inability to choose God or submit to Him.

I think I'll keep from holding my breath.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I do have a question for Calvinists.....How much of Matt 24 do they view as being fulfilled? Thanks

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923/

 

[cygnusx1]

Salvation from the Death and Hades maybe?
The OC Temple/Priesthood/sacrifices was the only way the OC Jews/Israelites had to pay for their sins.

Reve 19:1 After these I hear as sound a great throng vast in the heaven saying "allelouia the Salvation and the glory and the power of the God of us"

I get the very strong impression that some posters think God has done no more for sinners than a Bible on a bookstore shelf ; ie, made salvation "possible" !

which saved no-one .

or should I pray and thank my Bible for making salvation possible ?

then there is my Mum and Dad without them I wouldn't be here , so they have also made salvation "possible " ........ I could go on like this for weeks !

 

[cygnusx1]

I do have a question for Calvinists.....How much of Matt 24 do they view as being fulfilled? Thanks

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923/

you will find various answers on that question , many are Historists some futurists , most are Amillenialists and the Puritans (Calvinists) generally saw a future for Israel and the return of the Jews to the Holy land .


The Puritans and the Promises by our Erroll Hulse

 

[Rightglory]

CmRoddy,

You are assuming that John 3:16 is speaking of every individual, but you have yet to give us an exegesis of John 3:16 to prove this as true. Of course, Calvinists can exegete the entirety of John 3 and demonstrate how your interpretation is wrong, but I think it's your turn to step up to the mound and give us some solid, verse by verse, exegesis.

Why assume when the rest of scripture proclaims that very fact. Why assume when historical Christianity has never believed differently.

Of Course Calvinists can exegete this verse, as you have very amply shown to fit a Calvinistic interpretation. But then that has been going on for 500 years and we have many different exegesis not only of this verse but the entire scriptures. What is so supprising about that. Sola Scriptura still reigns supreme along with the authority of man. Man is still trying to outdo the Holy Spirit and actually thinks he can.

Why not exegete it as it has always been understood from the beginning. That would be novel now would it not? That the Truth that was revealed to the Apostles is actually real, is actuallly Truth, and that it was given once in the beginning. One could actually believe what scripture says about that Gospel. That it would be preserved until the end of time.

Rather than depend on a book, containing only a partial gospel, and man trying to decipher what it might mean for himself, or just arrogantly proclaiming that his interpretation is the gospel.

 

[CmRoddy]

CmRoddy,

Why assume when the rest of scripture proclaims that very fact. Why assume when historical Christianity has never believed differently.

Of Course Calvinists can exegete this verse, as you have very amply shown to fit a Calvinistic interpretation. But then that has been going on for 500 years and we have many different exegesis not only of this verse but the entire scriptures. What is so supprising about that. Sola Scriptura still reigns supreme along with the authority of man. Man is still trying to outdo the Holy Spirit and actually thinks he can.

Why not exegete it as it has always been understood from the beginning. That would be novel now would it not? That the Truth that was revealed to the Apostles is actually real, is actuallly Truth, and that it was given once in the beginning. One could actually believe what scripture says about that Gospel. That it would be preserved until the end of time.

Rather than depend on a book, containing only a partial gospel, and man trying to decipher what it might mean for himself, or just arrogantly proclaiming that his interpretation is the gospel.

Show me one verse that says "Christ died for every single individual."

RG, you are assuming just that if you cannot provide a passage that states this. Nowhere does the Bible make such a claim, but you say it does. Ergo, you are assuming.

So I'll say it again; show us a passage that explicitly says that Christ died for every individual person and not just a passage that says "world" or "all men" because if you can't, then you are simply assuming into the text what you want.

 

[archierieus]

Show me one verse that says "Christ died for every single individual."

Why would it have to be your choice of words? A number of Scriptures are clear that Christ died for everyone.

So I'll say it again; show us a passage that explicitly says that Christ died for every individual person and not just a passage that says "world" or "all men" because if you can't, then you are simply assuming into the text what you want.

'Died for all men' is an assumption? It is clear on its face, as it reads. There is no need to use the exact words, 'every single individual' because 'all men' is sufficient to clarify.

 

[cygnusx1]

Christ no more died for every individual than every individual is meant by "ALL Israel shall be saved "

Romans 11

[25] Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in,

[26] and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
[27] "and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
[28] As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

Some think God has finished (cursed) the Nation of Israel , this is either because they see the nation AS EVERY INDIVIDUAL JEW , DESCENDANT OF ABRAHAM , or they ignore the way scripture often sees the "some" the "part" as THE WHOLE , one needs only to show many Jews are saved and this will reveal ;

1. God has not finished with the Jewish people (Romans 11)

2. the "nation" of Israel no more means each and every Jew than the "world" of John 3:16 means each and every descendant of Adam .

scripture does use general terms , without meaning each and every.

it's ironic that many who see Christ dying for every person are often quick to see the Nation of Israel having no soteriological significance today , the mistake stems from the same bad practice.

National Israel is cursed forever !

not a chance !!!

John 11

[49] But one of them, Ca'iaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all;
[50] you do not understand that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish."
[51] He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation,
[52] and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

 

[CmRoddy]

Why would it have to be your choice of words? A number of Scriptures are clear that Christ died for everyone.

LOL!

Don't you see your blatant double standard, Archie? "Why would it have to be your choice of words"? Seriously? You are the one who are constantly asking for passages that explicitly says "as it reads" that men cannot choose to believe in God. I have provided many, many, many, passages that teaches this but you deny them because they do not adhere to your choice of words.

Please, stop this type of discussion. Everyone can see what you are doing.

'Died for all men' is an assumption? It is clear on its face, as it reads. There is no need to use the exact words, 'every single individual' because 'all men' is sufficient to clarify.

And as I have shown you, if Christ did die for every individual, then every individual will be saved. Hebrews 2:9 is an example of this. If the "everyone" at the end of the verse means every individual, the immediate context shows that it leads to Universalism. The group being talked about in v. 9 carries over to the rest of the chapter. Also, if you want to say that Christ died for all individuals but not all are saved, then does that mean that the Atonement is insufficient to save apart from the addition of man's action?

"All men" clearly means "all types of men" as in not just Jews but also Gentiles. That is one of the central messages of Pauline theology and what we see taught by Christ.

 

[cygnusx1]

LOL!

Don't you see your blatant double standard, Archie? "Why would it have to be your choice of words"? Seriously? You are the one who are constantly asking for passages that explicitly says "as it reads" that men cannot choose to believe in God. I have provided many, many, many, passages that teaches this but you deny them because they do not adhere to your choice of words.

Please, stop this type of discussion. Everyone can see what you are doing.



And as I have shown you, if Christ did die for every individual, then every individual will be saved. Hebrews 2:9 is an example of this. If the "everyone" at the end of the verse means every individual, the immediate context shows that it leads to Universalism. The group being talked about in v. 9 carries over to the rest of the chapter. Also, if you want to say that Christ died for all individuals but not all are saved, then does that mean that the Atonement is insufficient to save apart from the addition of man's action?

"All men" clearly means "all types of men" as in not just Jews but also Gentiles. That is one of the central messages of Pauline theology and what we see taught by Christ.

as it reads bro as it reads ;

all Israel will be saved

Judas Ciaphas Dathan Esau Saul all who died in the wilderness after the Exodus ............. all of em saved !!!

 

[CmRoddy]

as it reads bro as it reads ;

all Israel will be saved

Judas Ciaphas Dathan Esau Saul all who died in the wilderness after the Exodus ............. all of em saved !!!

Much <3 to you, bro!

 

[Robert Pate]

LOL!

Don't you see your blatant double standard, Archie? "Why would it have to be your choice of words"? Seriously? You are the one who are constantly asking for passages that explicitly says "as it reads" that men cannot choose to believe in God. I have provided many, many, many, passages that teaches this but you deny them because they do not adhere to your choice of words.

Please, stop this type of discussion. Everyone can see what you are doing.



And as I have shown you, if Christ did die for every individual, then every individual will be saved. Hebrews 2:9 is an example of this. If the "everyone" at the end of the verse means every individual, the immediate context shows that it leads to Universalism. The group being talked about in v. 9 carries over to the rest of the chapter. Also, if you want to say that Christ died for all individuals but not all are saved, then does that mean that the Atonement is insufficient to save apart from the addition of man's action?

"All men" clearly means "all types of men" as in not just Jews but also Gentiles. That is one of the central messages of Pauline theology and what we see taught by Christ.

This post shows that you either don't understand the gospel or you don't believe it.

Christ did die for every individual. Salvation has been provided for all, but not all want it. Those that don't want it are the lost.

Jesus Christ as the new Adam and representative of the human race clothed himself in human flesh and came into the world to do for us that which we cannot do for ourselves, Romans 5:19.

There are probably 50 scriptures in the New Testament that says salvation is for, whosoever, all men, all, the world. To say that salvation has not been provided for all is ridiculous.

 

[CmRoddy]

This post shows that you either don't understand the gospel or you don't believe it.

Christ did die for every individual. Salvation has been provided for all, but not all want it. Those that don't want it are the lost.

Jesus Christ as the new Adam and representative of the human race clothed himself in human flesh and came into the world to do for us that which we cannot do for ourselves, Romans 5:19.

There are probably 50 scriptures in the New Testament that says salvation is for, whosoever, all men, all, the world. To say that salvation has not been provided for all is ridiculous.

*sigh*

If Christ died for every individual then they will all be saved. Here is proof once again.

Hebrews 2:9
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
​

Well, there it is! Jesus died for everyone! That's what it says...

Many Arminians try to use this text as a "proof" that Christ died for every individual person. However, they don't even consider the context. This text is says "everyone" in the sense of "not only Jews but for Gentiles" or "not only Jews but the whole world in terms for groups of people." Of necessity that is what "everyone" means otherwise you get Universalism. Lets continue reading and see what happens when one is consistent in exegesis.

You should really consider what you think and ascribe to v. 9 because if you don't, this becomes a perfect Universalistic text. If you notice, the context is constantly giving a reference to a particular group, not just every single individual. Let's continue.

Hebrews 2:10
10For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
​

Well, this can't possibly mean "many sons" can it? It should say "everyone" or "every man" to glory. Why doesn't it say that? Didn't we just establish that it should be everyone because of v. 9?

Whoever this group is (the "many sons"), they are the saved people. Why? Because their "salvation" is made perfect through suffering. Continuing...

Hebrews 2:11
11For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
​

OK, so now we have a discussion about a group of people who are sanctified and they are being called the "brethren" of Christ. Is there a reference/discussion in the book of Hebrews about those who are being sanctified? There is in Hebrews 10:14 where those who are sanctified are perfected because of the offering on the cross. Seems to be the same group. So yet again, if "everyone" in v. 9 is every single human being then we must all embrace Universalism. They have "salvation" they "come to glory" they are "sanctified" they are "perfected"; there is no way around it. Or you can see that there is a specific group being spoken of here... those that are called the brothers of our Lord?

Let's continue...

Hebrews 2:12
12saying,
"I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN,
IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."
13And again,
"I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM "
And again,
"BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME."
​

So is there any reference to the Father giving a specific people to Christ anywhere in the NT? Well there is in Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 10, and by golly, this even fits with John 6, 8 and 10 and the tremendous passages we find there. But of course, there is no way this could possibly mean a specific group of people, right? I mean, we established that v. 9 is talking about every single individual person, right? OK, well let's continue...

Hebrews 2:14-15
14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
​

So I guess everyone is going to be saved here too because I guess everyone fears death right?

Hebrews 2:16
16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
​

So is this only talking about only Israel here? Only the Jews will be saved? Or is there the possibility that this is the Christian concept that those who are the offspring of Abraham are of the faith and the chosen ones... seems like Romans 9 is becoming more clear isn't it? But, let's continue...

Hebrews 2:17-18
17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
​

OK, this is the nail in the coffin of any sort of idea of "Christ died for every single individual." Again it talks about the "brothers" of Christ that we discussed above, but lets see what else it says. Notice how Christ is the high priest here and he does what? "makes propitiation for the sins of the people." Now, do you know what propitiation means? It means the turning away of God's wrath. So if God's wrath is turned away from every single individual person, then on what basis can God justly punish those that reject Christ? Also, this high priest concept is huge in the book of Hebrews. What does the high priest do? Well, he intercedes only for those that the sacrifice was made, and if Christ died for every single individual than that means He is interceding for those who will be in hell for eternity. Of course, given what the rest of the chapter before said, no one will be in hell, but I'm sure you won't grant that.

What does the book of Hebrews tell us about Christs' intercession? Well, Hebrews 7:25 tells us that Christ is able to save perfectly those that He intercedes for at the thrown of the Father. So if Christ is the high priest, died for every single individual, is interceding for every individual at the thrown of the Father, you have three options. First, Christ's intercession fails before the Father. Never mind that the entire book of Hebrews calls Him the perfect high priest and says He enters into the temple once for all time, He would simply faith. Or you can believe in Universalism because Christ's intercession is perfect before the thrown. But there is a consistent way of reading this text, and that is to believe that Christ only died for a specific group of people and is interceding for the.