Calvinism Clearly Refuted

[Hammster]

I think that there are 40 or 50 scriptures in the New Testament that says Christ has provided salvation for the world, all men, whosoever, all. Its tough to be a Calvinist.

Not really. We just take everything in context and allow for normal usage of language. That way, we can have an accurate view of scripture, and not one that has to use 40 or 50 verses out of context to prop up a non-biblical theology.

 

[archierieus]

There are a world of worldly people in this world. Now, not all of the people in this world are worldly; but some are out of this world worldly.

Dig?

That does not help the claim of limited scope of 'world' as used by John .

 

[archierieus]

duplicate post

 

[CmRoddy]

Indeed. No such specific words would be needed. The Bible says that Christ died for all men. There is no need to go beyond that to 'every single individual.' The Bible is clear exactly as it reads.

Oh, so here is your double standard again.

Whenever you are trying to prove your point, specific words are not needed. But when a Calvinist (or anyone else who disagrees with you) are trying to prove a point, you demand specific words...

Come on, Archie, get off rid of this type tactic. It's getting ridiculous.

I hope people are catching on to this and seeing how Archie does not hold himself to the same standards that he demands from others.

You are the one who made the assertion. They were your words. You were asked to provide Scriptures which say that. In spite of repeated requests, you have failed to do so. It is clear, then, that there are no such Scriptures. Nor have you presented ANY Scriptures which teach that. You have merely asserted that, and claimed that Scripture says it, but there is no such Scripture.

I haven't presented any Scripture? Are you joking right now? Archie, do you purposefully ignore people's posts? Have presented this link to you many, many times but you have yet to even look at it. The teaching is very clear. I have even showed you that men don't and can't choose to believe in God by using the context of John 3:16, which you seem to ignore when you read it and use it as a proof text.

I'm amazed that you would make such an assertion.

Wrong.

LOL

You make the assertion but you do nothing to show how it is wrong. Classic.

Wrong. The difference between the 'every man' described in v. 9 and 'bring many sons to glory' is clear on its face.

Oh, really? Let's look at it again.

Hebrews 2:9
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
10For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
​

So what is this "difference," Archie? You make the claim but you yet again provide no proof. I call this a "post-and-run" tactic. But I'm going to assume that the "difference" is the free will of the people being talked about, since that is so obviously your theological a priori.

So, should the passage actually read,

"So that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons who have chosen Him to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through suffering"?
​

Are you going to mentally force man's will into this passage, even though nothing is being mentioned? Come on, Archie, allow the passage to flow. You who are so worried about a passage "at face value" are doing a lot of eisegetical gymnastics just to get what you want from the text.

Christ's death was a propitiation. The atonement is made by applying Christ's sacrifice to the individual. God has specified how that is done, by believing on Jesus.

First of all, if Christ's death was a propitiation then that means Christ's death appeased and removed God's wrath from the sins of those for whom the sacrifice was made. If God is a just God, on what basis can He punish the same sin twice? Why would God crush His son for the sins of those He knew would not accept and be punish in hell for an eternity?

Secondly, show me a single passage that says that the atonement is only applied by believing on Jesus. Show me one that says this on face value. Go ahead. Apply your own standard. I guarantee you won't be able to find one.

Absolutely incorrect based on Scripture as it reads, and on the plain teaching of Scripture.

You have yet to show a single passage that says "every individual person." You think that it Scripture teaches every individual "as it reads," but you simply refuse to allow even the possibility of any other interpretation, despite them being given to you on this site.

So until you can apply your own standard to yourself and show us a passage that says "every single individual" or "every individual person," I will reject anything you say.

 

[CmRoddy]

I think that there are 40 or 50 scriptures in the New Testament that says Christ has provided salvation for the world, all men, whosoever, all. Its tough to be a Calvinist.

lol.

Says the person who refuses to interact, in any meaningful way, with the counter arguments provided by the Calvinists. Hey, have you given a look to my Hebrews 2:9ff exegesis? Would you mind showing me how the death of Christ in v. 9 doesn't lead to Universalism, despite the text being clear that the death of Christ for the group in v. 9 clearly brings salvation?

Hebrews 2:9
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
​

Well, there it is! Jesus died for everyone! That's what it says...

Many Arminians try to use this text as a "proof" that Christ died for every individual person. However, they don't even consider the context. This text is says "everyone" in the sense of "not only Jews but for Gentiles" or "not only Jews but the whole world in terms for groups of people." Of necessity that is what "everyone" means otherwise you get Universalism. Lets continue reading and see what happens when one is consistent in exegesis.

You should really consider what you think and ascribe to v. 9 because if you don't, this becomes a perfect Universalistic text. If you notice, the context is constantly giving a reference to a particular group, not just every single individual. Let's continue.

Hebrews 2:10
10For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
​

Well, this can't possibly mean "many sons" can it? It should say "everyone" or "every man" to glory. Why doesn't it say that? Didn't we just establish that it should be everyone because of v. 9?

Whoever this group is (the "many sons"), they are the saved people. Why? Because their "salvation" is made perfect through suffering. Continuing...

Hebrews 2:11
11For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
​

OK, so now we have a discussion about a group of people who are sanctified and they are being called the "brethren" of Christ. Is there a reference/discussion in the book of Hebrews about those who are being sanctified? There is in Hebrews 10:14 where those who are sanctified are perfected because of the offering on the cross. Seems to be the same group. So yet again, if "everyone" in v. 9 is every single human being then we must all embrace Universalism. They have "salvation" they "come to glory" they are "sanctified" they are "perfected"; there is no way around it. Or you can see that there is a specific group being spoken of here... those that are called the brothers of our Lord?

Let's continue...

Hebrews 2:12
12saying,
"I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN,
IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."
13And again,
"I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM "
And again,
"BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME."
​

So is there any reference to the Father giving a specific people to Christ anywhere in the NT? Well there is in Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 10, and by golly, this even fits with John 6, 8 and 10 and the tremendous passages we find there. But of course, there is no way this could possibly mean a specific group of people, right? I mean, we established that v. 9 is talking about every single individual person, right? OK, well let's continue...

Hebrews 2:14-15
14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
​

So I guess everyone is going to be saved here too because I guess everyone fears death right?

Hebrews 2:16
16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
​

So is this only talking about only Israel here? Only the Jews will be saved? Or is there the possibility that this is the Christian concept that those who are the offspring of Abraham are of the faith and the chosen ones... seems like Romans 9 is becoming more clear isn't it? But, let's continue...

Hebrews 2:17-18
17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
​

OK, this is the nail in the coffin of any sort of idea of "Christ died for every single individual." Again it talks about the "brothers" of Christ that we discussed above, but lets see what else it says. Notice how Christ is the high priest here and he does what? "makes propitiation for the sins of the people." Now, do you know what propitiation means? It means the turning away of God's wrath. So if God's wrath is turned away from every single individual person, then on what basis can God justly punish those that reject Christ? Also, this high priest concept is huge in the book of Hebrews. What does the high priest do? Well, he intercedes only for those that the sacrifice was made, and if Christ died for every single individual than that means He is interceding for those who will be in hell for eternity. Of course, given what the rest of the chapter before said, no one will be in hell, but I'm sure you won't grant that.

What does the book of Hebrews tell us about Christs' intercession? Well, Hebrews 7:25 tells us that Christ is able to save perfectly those that He intercedes for at the thrown of the Father. So if Christ is the high priest, died for every single individual, is interceding for every individual at the thrown of the Father, you have three options. First, Christ's intercession fails before the Father. Never mind that the entire book of Hebrews calls Him the perfect high priest and says He enters into the temple once for all time, He would simply faith. Or you can believe in Universalism because Christ's intercession is perfect before the thrown. But there is a consistent way of reading this text, and that is to believe that Christ only died for a specific group of people and is interceding for the.