Calvinism and T.U.L.I.P. Explained

[BBAS 64]

I believe that the text of John 3:16 supports the idea that Salvation can be accepted or rejected and is not predestined.
Christ Died (His UNIQUE--Only-begotten was a lil mistranslation but that's ok.) so that those who believe in Him (Anyone) will not perish but have everlating life. Using the same verses I stated above on who Jesus Died for.
And of course we can never lose salvation.
"being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. " Phillippians 1:6

The Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:28-29b).
Bless you Bill,
Jaime

Good Day, Jamie

There is no "anyone" in the text of Jn 3:16.

Joh 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

To add the "anyone" to the text would lead one to see an idea that is not supported by the text. On your second point we can agree.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Van]

BBAS 64, I am sorry I have not understood your view. Having read your response, I am sure I still do not because your position seems exactly like I said. First God loved the world means God loved all of mankind, the wicked along side the godly. But this does not say God sent His Son to all mankind because He loved all mankind as I contend. I say God sent His Son to save the all of mankind because all of mankind was lost.

Why not just agree that I have properly characterized your view, that God gave His Son only for the elect and not for the whole world.

Second, you have posted that whosoever is not in the text and I have responded that the Greek term "pas" is in the text. So deal with the term, I say it means anybody within the kosmos of all mankind, in this verse.

The believe in the text is a verb in the perfect tense, thus the every one who is believing in Him. So there is a attribute to they "eveyone" they must be "doing" believing.

Here we see the effort to use the verb as a noun, the folks are not believing into Christ, no they are folks that are already believing, hense the regenerate believers.
Again, I have accurately characterized your posted postion. Not one bible I have seen translates the verse the way you say the Greek grammar requires. Not one.

Young's Literal renders it "who is believing in Him" indicating God saves believers and not folks that used to believe but no longer believe, nor folks that do not yet believe.
That is why the translators render the Greek as they do, whoever believes in Him. To try and turn this on its head and say the whoever means those already believing of the preselected elect is ends driven exegesis.

My view, God loves everybody so
God gave His Son to everybody so
Anybody who believes in Him shall not perish so
they will have eternal life. This is the straightforward, straight up, unforced and widely accepted view of the verse and absolutely nothing in the Greek argues against this view.

 

[BBAS 64]

BBAS 64, I am sorry I have not understood your view. Having read your response, I am sure I still do not because your position seems exactly like I said. First God loved the world means God loved all of mankind, the wicked along side the godly...

Good day, Van

So far we agree in general that God loves mankind, to some greater or lesser extent.

But this does not say God sent His Son to all mankind because He loved all mankind as I contend. I say God sent His Son to save the all of mankind because all of mankind was lost...

Well, you have set foruth a contention that far exceeds this verse. So to carry out your contention here "I say God sent His Son to save the all of mankind". We know that all of mankind will not be saved thus the son fails to do what God sent him for?

..

Why not just agree that I have properly characterized your view, that God gave His Son only for the elect and not for the whole world

I will get to this in a bit

Second, you have posted that whosoever is not in the text and I have responded that the Greek term "pas" is in the text. So deal with the term, I say it means anybody within the kosmos of all mankind, in this verse.

Pas is not the only word in the Greek constuction.
pas o pisteuwn

all one's beliveing.

Unless of couse you can link believing to kosmos after the conjuction "that".

that whosoever believeth in him.

Here we see the effort to use the verb as a noun, the folks are not believing into Christ, no they are folks that are already believing, hense the regenerate believers.

A verbal noun is a lingustic useage and is proper in the english, not sure of the greek. From the english you have well stated the useage, not that I ever did. Cause I missed it thanks.

A verbal noun is a noun that is morphologically related to a verb and similar to it in meaning.

Examples (English) <LI>The word description, related to the word describe, is a verbal noun.

In the following example, walking is a verbal noun:

Brisk walking is good exercise.

http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsAVerbalNoun.htm

Again, I have accurately characterized your posted postion. Not one bible I have seen translates the verse the way you say the Greek grammar requires. Not one.

HCSB;

Joh 3:16"For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

Young's Literal renders it "who is believing in Him" indicating God saves believers and not folks that used to believe but no longer believe, nor folks that do not yet believe.
That is why the translators render the Greek as they do, whoever believes in Him. To try and turn this on its head and say the whoever means those already believing of the preselected elect is ends driven exegesis.

Never took that position, not nessary.


.

My view, God loves everybody so
God gave His Son to everybody so
Anybody who believes in Him shall not perish so
they will have eternal life. This is the straightforward, straight up, unforced and widely accepted view of the verse and absolutely nothing in the Greek argues against this view.

Lets be clear here there is no Greek word for "whosoever" in John 3:16, The whosoever is an attempt to give meaning to a Greek constuction. I do not think the translation is incorrect with in the context, but is misleading in some schools of thought.

YLT:

Joh 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

The whosoever in the english represent those who are doing the believing in him. There is a clear prerequisite of being "believing/ verb" to be of the group every one.



But we are talking about Jn 3:16 and the understanding of the " whosoever". Based upon Jn 3:16 there has never been shown any relationship between the "world" and the verb "beleive" in the present tense. God gave his son, SO THAT EVERY ONE who are the believing 'DOING" for the purpose of not perishing that is why God gave.

Van, your questions mosly deal with the motive "why" did God give, not the purpose of the giving. God gave out of love for the world, for the purpose of "not perishing" for all the beliving one's.

John Owens:

First, If this word whosoever be distributive, then it is restrictive of the love of God to some, and not to others,—to one part of the distribution, and not the other. And if it do not restrain the love of God, intending the salvation of some, then it is not distributive of the fore-mentioned object of it; and if it do restrain it, then all are not intended in the love which moved God to give his Son. Secondly, I deny that the word here is distributive of the object of God’s love, but only declarative of his end and aim in giving Christ in the pursuit of that love,—to wit, that all believers might be saved. So that the sense is, “God so loved his elect throughout the world, that he gave his Son with this intention, that by him believers might be saved.” And this is all that is by any (besides a few worthless cavils) objected from this place to disprove our interpretation

Spurgeon:

III. Thirdly, the love of God shines forth with transcendent brightness in a third point, namely, in THE PERSONS FOR WHOM THIS PLAN IS AVAILABLE, and for whom this gift is given. They are described in these words—"Whosoever believeth in him." There is in the text a word which has no limit—"God so loved the world"; but then comes in the descriptive limit, which I beg you to notice with care: "He gave his Only Begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him might not perish." God did not so love the world that any man who does not believe in Christ shall be saved; neither did God so give his Son that any man shall be saved who refuses to believe in him. See how it is put—"God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish." Here is the compass of the love: while every unbeliever is excluded, every believer is included.

Chrysostom: His Passion then He sets before him not very openly, but rather darkly; but the advantage of the Passion He adds in a clearer manner, saying, "That every one that believeth in Him. should not perish, but have everlasting life

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[JaimeMan]

This is just a reminder of why anyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved:

• John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness
• Romans 10:13 For, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
• Acts 2:38-39 38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off–for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
• Romans 10:9
  9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
• 2 Peter 3:99The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
  

• The Bible says
• He died for all (1 Tim. 2:6; Isa. 53:6)
• for every man (Heb. 2:9)
• for the world (John 3:16)
• for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2),
• for the ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
• for false teachers (2 Peter 2:1)
• for many (Matt. 20:28)
• for Israel (John 11:50–51)
• for the church (Eph. 5:25)
• and for “me” (Gal. 2:20)

It is evident that Jesus did die for all of humanity and that He wishes for all to come to a saving knowledge of Him. (1 Timothy 2:4)

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, Jamieman

Why so Big?

2 Peter 3:99The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

We might as well look at the context of this one also;


2 Pe 1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

**Remember this is written to Believers


2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

* believers- beloved,YE

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

*Un regenerate man

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

*Unregenerate Man's Charge
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

* Unbelivers rewards for thier ungodly- ness
2Pe 3:8 But,
beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

*Believers
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

* Believers – Charge of the ungodly in verse #4 rebuffed


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


*Reward for Believers



Peace to u,

Bill

 

[JaimeMan]

Well, what about the rest of my verses? Granted, this doesn't take away from what the scripture was conveying in the diessction of 2nd Peter.

 

[Van]

BBAS 64, thanks for your clarification.

The Greek contruction "pas ho" can be translated any number of ways. Most translators tranlate it whoever. Pas is translated as who hundreds of times and ho is translated by itself as whoever 35 times in the NIV. I think anyone who is the best translation, but guys who know way more than me render it whoever.

The present tense of the verb "pisteuo" means God saves believers, not folks that used to believe or folks that do not yet believe. The verb in the construction is pisteuo so it is not being used as a noun. Dodd contends that the construction "Pisteuo eis" (believing into) is to demonstrate complete faith, giving up oneself and trusting only in Christ. John wrote His gospel so that folks who heard could believe, an action subsequent to the message being delivered, just as is presented in John 3:16.

There is a clear prerequisite of being "believing/ verb" to be of the group every one.

Here is the plain statement, just as I contended was your position, putting the cart before the horse. Believing is not a prerequisite to joining the group of everyone. Anyone among the group of everyone, who chooses to believe, joins the group of anyone who believes. Again believing is the verb and describes the action of the subject, and is not an adjective describing the subject. If you cannot see that your contention is ends driven, there is nothing more I can say.

 

[BBAS 64]

BBAS 64, thanks for your clarification.

The Greek contruction "pas ho" can be translated any number of ways. Most translators tranlate it whoever. Pas is translated as who hundreds of times and ho is translated by itself as whoever 35 times in the NIV. I think anyone who is the best translation, but guys who know way more than me render it whoever.

The present tense of the verb "pisteuo" means God saves believers, not folks that used to believe or folks that do not yet believe. The verb in the construction is pisteuo so it is not being used as a noun. Dodd contends that the construction "Pisteuo eis" (believing into) is to demonstrate complete faith, giving up oneself and trusting only in Christ. John wrote His gospel so that folks who heard could believe, an action subsequent to the message being delivered, just as is presented in John 3:16.

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Here is the plain statement, just as I contended was your position, putting the cart before the horse. Believing is not a prerequisite to joining the group of everyone. Anyone among the group of everyone, who chooses to believe, joins the group of anyone who believes. Again believing is the verb and describes the action of the subject, and is not an adjective describing the subject. If you cannot see that your contention is ends driven, there is nothing more I can say.

Good Day, Van

Thank you for the great discussion on this verse. Though we can not agree on the grammer and the consturct here, I belive I have done my best to show the determining factor in the "whoever, every one" must be believing "verb present tense" and it is a condition particpated in by every one in the "all" group.

This may help for those wo are lurking...

I am going to feed my snake some crickets, I open the bag of 24 and take out all the one's that are moving.

Thanks again Van, it has been a pleasure

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[JohnJones]

Good Day, John

I vote neither, your "tulip" fails the letters do not match.

y
t
j
i
p


Kind of screwy, if english is you primary tounge.

Peace to u,

Bill

Revised version with letters matching and language slightly de-modernized.

T - Thou canst not move, thou corpse, so stop trying.
U - Up over there, yon man is saved even tho' repent'th not.
L - Look! Jesus died not for thee, but merely for Calvinists died he.
I - It's like this: the Holy Spirit's gonna force th' unrepentant to be saved.
P - Pursue whate'er sin thou choos'st, cuz if y'r saved y'r saved.

 

[tigersnare]

This is just a reminder of why anyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved:

• John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

• 
  
  This verse has nothing to do with obtaining salvation, surely the context is clear on this.

 

[BBAS 64]

Revised version with letters matching and language slightly de-modernized.

T - Thou canst not move, thou corpse, so stop trying.
U - Up over there, yon man is saved even tho' repent'th not.
L - Look! Jesus died not for thee, but merely for Calvinists died he.
I - It's like this: the Holy Spirit's gonna force th' unrepentant to be saved.
P - Pursue whate'er sin thou choos'st, cuz if y'r saved y'r saved.

Good Day, John

Much better not sure that this is a accurate TULIP as it refeclts The Doctrines of Grace found with in the pages of Scripture, some sort of hybrid as in all hybrids the introduction of forgien material is easily spotted.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Van]

tigersnare, the context of 1 John 1:9 does not make it clear to me that salvation is not in view. The same word, translated confess is used in Romans 10:9,"...if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved."

I think John is talking about two different types of folks, saved and unsaved. Those that say they do not sin are the unsaved and those who confess they are sinners are the saved. And what John is telling the unsaved is this, "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." And this is accomplished by placing us "in Christ!"

 

[tigersnare]

tigersnare, the context of 1 John 1:9 does not make it clear to me that salvation is not in view. The same word, translated confess is used in Romans 10:9,"...if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved."

I think John is talking about two different types of folks, saved and unsaved. Those that say they do not sin are the unsaved and those who confess they are sinners are the saved. And what John is telling the unsaved is this, "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." And this is accomplished by placing us "in Christ!"

I could be wrong, but....

Why does he start the next passage with , "My little children"...is he not writing to believers in the Church?

I would think vs 9 is a reminder to the ones who have already heard about Jesus, from vs 1.

Never studied 1John though, I could be way off here...

 

[BBAS 64]

Well, what about the rest of my verses? Granted, this doesn't take away from what the scripture was conveying in the diessction of 2nd Peter.

Good Day, Jamieman

What is 2 Pe conveying?

for every man (Heb. 2:9)
for many (Matt. 20:28)
Well which one is it IYO, every man or many?

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[JaimeMan]

Both:
for every man (Heb. 2:9)
for many (Matt. 20:28)

Every man sure is many people wouldn't you say?

 

[BBAS 64]

Both:
for every man (Heb. 2:9)
for many (Matt. 20:28)

Every man sure is many people wouldn't you say?

Good day, Jamieman

No, from a quanative point of view, many would be a subset of every.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Van]

Tigersnare, in several passages, I differ with other folks, Calvinist seeking support for some premise, and alternately folks who believe salvation can be lost. In both cases, they assert the audience is monolithic, either the audience is all saved or all lost. But contrary to this, I think the audience is usually mixed containing born again believers, and tares (folks who have heard the gospel and have not responded with a full commitment.)

So in my view, the passages contain exhortations to walk closely with the Lord and maximize rewards and bolster assurance of salvation directed at the born again believers, and at the same time, warnings that if the yoke is not light, if following after Christ is a burden, then you may not be indwelt.

Accordingly, when John says My Little Children, he is not only talking to folks born again based on accepting the gospel message John brought, he is also talking to folks who have heard the gospel and responded inadequately, folks that have an opportunity to fully trust in Christ and fully commit to Him. Note after addressing the audience as My Little Children, John says in verse 2:3, we know we have come to know him IF we keep His commandments. This message provides assurance for the one group and a warning for the other.

 

[Bulldog]

Both:
for every man (Heb. 2:9)
for many (Matt. 20:28)

Every man sure is many people wouldn't you say?

Impossible since "many" in Greek can never mean all or b stretched to allow all. It means "many" as in a group of "all."

 

[JaimeMan]

In either case...since you would like to put it in that context...BOTH WOULD CONTRADICT EACHOTHER!!!!!! What would you do? Pick one over the other? No way....Scripture is scripture. Look for the truth.

Jaime

 

[JohnJones]

tigersnare, the context of 1 John 1:9 does not make it clear to me that salvation is not in view. The same word, translated confess is used in Romans 10:9,"...if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved."

I think John is talking about two different types of folks, saved and unsaved. Those that say they do not sin are the unsaved and those who confess they are sinners are the saved. And what John is telling the unsaved is this, "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." And this is accomplished by placing us "in Christ!"

The above interpretation is wholly wrong. John is writing to Christians. Everything past the book of Acts is written only to Christians, i.e. those who are already saved. Only the 4 gospels and Acts are written to unbelievers. He is refering in 1 John 1:7-9 to the fact that Christians can still sin. That's why he says in 1 John 2:1 "My little children [a hint that he is not writing to non-Christians], these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" -- He tells us plainly that Christians can commit sin and that when they do so they need to confess these sins to be forgiven. No confession = no forgiveness = loss of salvation.