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And again, I've never used the term "dragging", only you have. You can stop any time now since I don't think there is any sort of dragging going on. It's not strengthening anything you say.
Nope, I sure don't, nor have I ever suggested such a thing.
Got it and agree.
Got it. However, what you still haven't addressed is why these Believing Jews must first be drawn before they can accept Christ. Again, I bring this up in almost every response, and in every response you ignore the question.
The problem is that according to verse 44, all of these Believing in the Father Jews must first be drawn by the Father to Christ before they will believe in Christ. That's the entire point and where my questions come from.
Why must these Believing Jews be first drawn by the Father before coming to Christ? Why is it not enough that on their own, as Believing Jews that they recognize the Truth of what Jesus is preaching? Why must they first be drawn by the Father? That's what you seem incapable of addressing.
Got it. But again, the problem is that they must be drawn by the Father before coming to Christ. I can't seem to understand why this drawing by the Father must happen in order for them to come to Christ.
I hope that's only the case prior to the death/resurrection of Jesus on the cross!
Correct, and then after that, they need to be drawn by the Father also before coming to Jesus. And that's where all my questions come from, yet you still seem to ignore them or just talk about other stuff.
Cool, my questions stem from the other Jews that the Father was drawing.
And again, I've never used the term "dragging", only you have. You can stop any time now since I don't think there is any sort of dragging going on. It's not strengthening anything you say.
Got it. However, what you still haven't addressed is why these Believing Jews must first be drawn before they can accept Christ. Again, I bring this up in almost every response, and in every response you ignore the question.Their will is not being bent, but they are being drawn. I can be drawn or inclined to a certain thing or hobby, but that does not mean I cannot refuse what I feel drawn to.
Got it. But again, the problem is that they must be drawn by the Father before coming to Christ. I can't seem to understand why this drawing by the Father must happen in order for them to come to Christ.Step #1. - HEARD and LEARNED of the Father type Jews under the Old Covenant are...
Step #2. - Drawn or inclined (not dragged against their free will) to come to Jesus.
Correct, and then after that, they need to be drawn by the Father also before coming to Jesus. And that's where all my questions come from, yet you still seem to ignore them or just talk about other stuff.They first need to HEAR and LEARN by the Father in order to come to Jesus.
You sure do like to type and make multiple posts. Yet, you haven't yet responded to my most recent reply, #475 You've just spent a lot of time going off topic. I'll condense my reply #475 to hopefully help you respond to what is most important.
Got it. However, what you still haven't addressed is why these Believing Jews must first be drawn before they can accept Christ. Again, I bring this up in almost every response, and in every response you ignore the question.
The problem is that according to verse 44, all of these Believing in the Father Jews must first be drawn by the Father to Christ before they will believe in Christ. That's the entire point and where my questions come from.
Why must these Believing Jews be first drawn by the Father before coming to Christ? Why is it not enough that on their own, as Believing Jews that they recognize the Truth of what Jesus is preaching? Why must they first be drawn by the Father? That's what you seem incapable of addressing.
Got it. But again, the problem is that they must be drawn by the Father before coming to Christ. I can't seem to understand why this drawing by the Father must happen in order for them to come to Christ.
Correct, and then after that, they need to be drawn by the Father also before coming to Jesus. And that's where all my questions come from, yet you still seem to ignore them or just talk about other stuff.
I agree, so let's go with that.The word “draw” does not mean a lack of free will. I believe it is an inclination, or a nudge, or slight push.
Got it, so let's go with that. Now here's the question: Why must the Jew who has heard and learned of the Father be drawn to Christ in order to Believe?"The Jew who has HEARD and LEARNED OF THE FATHER is the one who is nudged, slightly pushed towards being able to come to Christ.
Again, this does not actually answer the question I'm asking. I'll try asking it another way one last time, but this is rapidly becoming pointless.
I agree, so let's go with that.
Got it, so let's go with that. Now here's the question: Why must the Jew who has heard and learned of the Father be drawn to Christ in order to Believe?"
That's the question. The order seems to be this:
1. Jew hears and is learned of the Father.
2. The Father draws the Jew to Christ.
3. The Jew comes to Christ.
So again, my question is pretty straight forward - Why must the Father draw the Jew to Christ in order for them to believe? The implication is that if the Father does not draw the Jew to Christ then they won't believe. So why is there a need for the drawing? Why can't the Jew, out of their own free will, without a drawing, without a nudge, without a slight push - come to Christ?
Again, this does not actually answer the question I'm asking. I'll try asking it another way one last time, but this is rapidly becoming pointless.
I agree, so let's go with that.
Got it, so let's go with that. Now here's the question: Why must the Jew who has heard and learned of the Father be drawn to Christ in order to Believe?"
That's the question. The order seems to be this:
1. Jew hears and is learned of the Father.
2. The Father draws the Jew to Christ.
3. The Jew comes to Christ.
So again, my question is pretty straight forward - Why must the Father draw the Jew to Christ in order for them to believe? The implication is that if the Father does not draw the Jew to Christ then they won't believe. So why is there a need for the drawing? Why can't the Jew, out of their own free will, without a drawing, without a nudge, without a slight push - come to Christ?
Great, but that doesn't address my questions.Those who are saved and in God's favor and playing ball on God's terms will be able to come to Jesus.
Great, those aren't the ones my questions are based on.The Jews that Jesus was referring to were not playing ball on God's terms according to His Word.
Yet, before they can come to Christ they must first be nudged by the Father. Thus, the inverse is also true that unless the Father nudges them, they won't come to Christ. So again my question - Why must they be nudged by the Father to come to Christ?Those who have this nudge or slight push are able to have it because they previously exercised their own free will in choosing God beforehand.
Oh my, are you actually going to answer the question?So why is there is a need for this slight nudge or push to come to Christ?
Doesn't look like you're going to answer the question... I agree that free will is not negated.Again, this slight push or nudge does not negate their free will in recognizing the Messiah.
Is this another way of saying they can't come to Christ without being drawn by the Father? If not, I'm not sure what you're saying, though I do note it doesn't address the questions I've asked.Jesus is saying to the Jews that they cannot come to God on their own terms, but on God's terms.
So the illumination comes after submitting to God's ways? So they submit without knowing why they're submitting? Anyway, sounds like a rabbit trail as this also doesn't address my questions.God will illuminate their eyes to see if they submit to God's ways according to His Word.
So we accept God without knowing the Truth? I felt like when I accepted Christ it was because I knew the Truth. Interesting. But this also is a rabbit trail and doesn't address my questions.God can open our eyes to the truth once we accept God.
Well, certainly part of the process of sanctification, which is becoming more like Christ will result in learning more about our Creator. But that of course is another topic and.... once again... doesn't address the questions I'm asking.God leads us to the truth if we abide in Him.
Great, but that doesn't address my questions.
Great, those aren't the ones my questions are based on.
Yet, before they can come to Christ they must first be nudged by the Father. Thus, the inverse is also true that unless the Father nudges them, they won't come to Christ. So again my question - Why must they be nudged by the Father to come to Christ?
Oh my, are you actually going to answer the question?
Doesn't look like you're going to answer the question... I agree that free will is not negated.
Is this another way of saying they can't come to Christ without being drawn by the Father? If not, I'm not sure what you're saying, though I do note it doesn't address the questions I've asked.
So the illumination comes after submitting to God's ways? So they submit without knowing why they're submitting? Anyway, sounds like a rabbit trail as this also doesn't address my questions.
So we accept God without knowing the Truth? I felt like when I accepted Christ it was because I knew the Truth. Interesting. But this also is a rabbit trail and doesn't address my questions.
Well, certainly part of the process of sanctification, which is becoming more like Christ will result in learning more about our Creator. But that of course is another topic and.... once again... doesn't address the questions I'm asking.
So yea... it looks like you made 3 additional posts after this one, all of which don't go anywhere near the questions I asked and again are you just pontificating on the subject.
Well it can't be said I didn't try. But for some reason, you don't want to address the question with a direct response. Not sure why, but that's your prerogative. Peace out champ.
Great, but that doesn't address my questions.
Great, those aren't the ones my questions are based on.
Yet, before they can come to Christ they must first be nudged by the Father. Thus, the inverse is also true that unless the Father nudges them, they won't come to Christ. So again my question - Why must they be nudged by the Father to come to Christ?
Oh my, are you actually going to answer the question?
Doesn't look like you're going to answer the question... I agree that free will is not negated.
Is this another way of saying they can't come to Christ without being drawn by the Father? If not, I'm not sure what you're saying, though I do note it doesn't address the questions I've asked.
So the illumination comes after submitting to God's ways? So they submit without knowing why they're submitting? Anyway, sounds like a rabbit trail as this also doesn't address my questions.
So we accept God without knowing the Truth? I felt like when I accepted Christ it was because I knew the Truth. Interesting. But this also is a rabbit trail and doesn't address my questions.
Well, certainly part of the process of sanctification, which is becoming more like Christ will result in learning more about our Creator. But that of course is another topic and.... once again... doesn't address the questions I'm asking.
So yea... it looks like you made 3 additional posts after this one, all of which don't go anywhere near the questions I asked and again are you just pontificating on the subject.
Well it can't be said I didn't try. But for some reason, you don't want to address the question with a direct response. Not sure why, but that's your prerogative. Peace out champ.
So we accept God without knowing the Truth? I felt like when I accepted Christ it was because I knew the Truth. Interesting. But this also is a rabbit trail and doesn't address my questions.
I don’t see how you did, can you copy/paste where you believe you specifically answered this:I did answer your main question.
I don’t see how you did, can you copy/paste where you believe you specifically answered this:
Yet, before they[believing Jews in question] can come to Christ they must first be nudged by the Father. Thus, the inverse is also true that unless the Father nudges them, they won't come to Christ. So again my question - Why must they be nudged by the Father to come to Christ?
Again let me ask - why must the Father FIRST nudge them? Why is the nudge necessary and required?
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