Calvin quote

[Hammster]

“he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.”

Calvin’s Institutes, Book 3 Chapter 23 paragraph 6.

Assuming that the doctrine of Open Theism is false (which we must do in this forum), is this a true or false statement, and why?

 

[solid_core]

“he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.”

Calvin’s Institutes, Book 3 Chapter 23 paragraph 6.

Assuming that the doctrine of Open Theism is false (which we must do in this forum), is this a true or false statement, and why?

I think its basically true, but not very wisely formulated.

It implies that God wishes/wants the death/destruction of a sinner per se, which is wrong.
He wants it only because its a necessary part of the best possible universe.

It also incorrectly implies that its not the guilt of the individual, but God somehow forces him to reach the bad ending.

 

[Hammster]

I think its basically true, but not very wisely formulated.

It implies that God wishes/wants the death/destruction of a sinner per se, which is wrong.
He wants it only because its a necessary part of the best possible universe.

It also incorrectly implies that its not the guilt of the individual, but God somehow forces him to reach the bad ending.

Thanks. I don’t agree with what you think is implied, but I appreciate your thoughts.

 

[GospelS]

True. His sovereign purpose and arrangement. Romans 9:17

Why?
In order that God’s plan might stand. Romans 9:11
To display/make His patience, mercy, glory, power, and wrath known. Romans 9:22-23

Because
Who Am I to question His reason. Romans 9:20
He has all the right to do as He pleases. Romans 9:21

 

[dqhall]

“he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.”

Calvin’s Institutes, Book 3 Chapter 23 paragraph 6.

Assuming that the doctrine of Open Theism is false (which we must do in this forum), is this a true or false statement, and why?

I must assume God gave me free will to wander where my thoughts desire. If I do well with what I learn, good might happen. If I do evil it is my own fault. I do not have to tell you God made me fail.

Matthew 7:14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

“he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.”

Calvin’s Institutes, Book 3 Chapter 23 paragraph 6.

Assuming that the doctrine of Open Theism is false (which we must do in this forum), is this a true or false statement, and why?

I think it’s false because it implies that God is the cause of the destruction of the individual which would make His judgment and punishment upon them unjust. I would quote Romans 2:4-5 to refute this statement.


“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[Hammster]

I think it’s false because it implies that God is the cause of the destruction of the individual which would make His judgment and punishment upon them unjust.

Are they not sinners who deserve punishment?

 

[Hammster]

I must assume God gave me free will to wander where my thoughts desire. If I do well with what I learn, good might happen. If I do evil it is my own fault. I do not have to tell you God made me fail.

Matthew 7:14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Would you see yourself as Pelagian? Why or why not?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Are they not sinners who deserve punishment?

Aren’t we all? But the question is why are they condemned. I edited my post just before you posted this reply. Will you please read the added portion?

 

[Hammster]

Aren’t we all? But the question is why are they condemned. I edited my post just before you posted this reply. Will you please read the added portion?

I’m not sure the reason for the quote. I don’t want to assume.

If we are all deserving of wrath, and we were all doomed from the womb, would He be unjust?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I’m not sure the reason for the quote. I don’t want to assume.

If we are all deserving of wrath, and we were all doomed from the womb, would He be unjust?

Well what are God’s expectations? For us to repent and believe, correct? Is a person capable of repenting and believing if God has not granted that person grace?

 

[Hammster]

Well what are God’s expectations? For us to repent and believe, correct? Is a person capable of repenting and believing if God has not granted that person grace?

That would depend on what you mean by capable. Our fallen nature puts us at enmity with God. That’s our natural state. We are sinners. It’s not wrong for God to tell sinners to stop sinning.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That would depend on what you mean by capable. Our fallen nature puts us at enmity with God. That’s our natural state. We are sinners. It’s not wrong for God to tell sinners to stop sinning.

Is a person capable of repenting and believing if God has not granted them grace? Are they able to repent and believe?

 

[Hammster]

Is a person capable of repenting and believing if God has not granted them grace? Are they able to repent and believe?

They will not be willing to do so.

 

[solid_core]

That would depend on what you mean by capable. Our fallen nature puts us at enmity with God. That’s our natural state. We are sinners. It’s not wrong for God to tell sinners to stop sinning.

Does not make much sense. What meaning is to tell a fish to fly over mountains, if the fish' nature is unable to do that? And punish the fish for it.

 

[Hammster]

Does not make much sense. What meaning is to tell a fish to fly over mountains, if the fish' nature is unable to do that? And punish the fish for it.

If we were talking about fish, and what their abilities are, you’d have a point. But a fish not being able to fly isn’t sinful.

 

[BNR32FAN]

They will not be willing to do so.

Total depravity (also called radical corruption or pervasive depravity) is a Christian theological doctrine derived from the concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenientgrace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.

According to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity a person is unable to meet God’s expectations unless God has granted them the ability to do so.

So my next question is, is it just to punish someone for failing to meet expectations that the person is utterly incapable of meeting?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Does not make much sense. What meaning is to tell a fish to fly over mountains, if the fish' nature is unable to do that? And punish the fish for it.

lol I don’t think God says to the fish “well you better figure it out”.

 

[Hammster]

Total depravity (also called radical corruption or pervasive depravity) is a Christian theological doctrine derived from the concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenientgrace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.

According to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity a person is unable to meet God’s expectations unless God has granted them the ability to do so.

So my next question is, is it just to punish someone for failing to meet expectations that the person is utterly incapable of meeting?

Whatever God does is just.

 

[solid_core]

If we were talking about fish, and what their abilities are, you’d have a point. But a fish not being able to fly isn’t sinful.

Its on God what laws he gives and therefore what is sin. If there was a law that swimming is sin, all fish would be doomed to hell, because they would have a "sinful nature".