Futurist Only Calling God's wrath "the tribulation" is false

[tranquil]

Yes, and the vision seen in the 7th seal tells us this, because "voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake" are always symbols of God speaking from heaven: We see it in Exodus 20:18, we see it used in poetic form by David in 2 Samuel 22:14-15, we see it proceeding from the throne of God in Revelation 4:5.

Any scroll sealed with seals can only unroll once all the seals have been loosened (which is why you only see the 1st trumpet sounding once the 7th seal had been loosened).

I believe that what is seen in the SEALS are VISIONS that SIGNIFY something about THE EVENTS that are written about IN THE SCROLL; and the VISIONS are:

A. Not events themselves, and also not the events written about in the scroll; and
B. Should not be taken literally:

Only after reading the events written about in the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl of wrath, do we realize that the vision John sees when the seventh seal is loosened, symbolizes God's judgment:

(7th Trumpet) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

(7th bowl) And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

(7th seal) And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

The scroll opened because the seals had all been loosened. That;s why it also introduces the first trumpet.

Yes because the vision tells us something about what's written on the scroll:

The 5th trumpet has the bottomless pit being opened, and elsewhere we are told that the beast ascends from the same bottomless pit. That beast will make war against the saints and overcome, and will martyr the two witnesses when they complete their testimony. So we are told:

(5th seal) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

(The 5th bowl) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

(The 5th trumpet) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

So it is with the visions of the 6th seal: They tell us about the events in the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl. Both the 6th trumpet and the 6th bowl have armies gathering.
I agree. I also agree that the Lord will keep the faithful from that hour of trial - but here on earth, before their resurrection.

God's Israel = the remnant of Ephraim & Judah who are in Christ:

Genesis 48:19 And his father refused and said, I know, my son, I know. He (Manasseh) also shall become a people, and he also shall be great, but truly his younger brother (Ephraim) shall be greater than he is, and his seed shall become the fullness of the Gentiles (Hebrew m'lo goy, translated into English Bibles as "a multitude of nations").

Isaiah 7:8-9
"For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within sixty-five years Ephraim shall be broken so that it shall not be a people. And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son."

Hosea 1:6b-11a
“For I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel. But I will utterly take them away.

But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son. Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for all of you are not my people, and I will not be your God.
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered;
and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, All of you are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, All of you are the sons of the living God.

Paul:

"What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared unto glory,

Even us, whom he has called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

As he says also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, All of you are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God." (Romans 9:22-26).

I believe that the Gentiles who are grafted into Israel = Ephraim.

I don't know about the rest of what you were saying. But I agree with the above, for the reasons I gave (although you may disagree with my reasons).

I am fine with it if someone wants to claim that the 7 seals are visions. But that said, to equate the 7 Trumpets to the 7 bowls of wrath is simply not true. What you said about the 7 seals having to be opened has to equally apply to the 7 Trumpets having to occur before the 7 Bowls are poured out.

They might correlate in some aspects, but this is due to the fact that the beast is mimicking prophecy, in the manner of the false prophet calling down fire (just like Gog is defeated by fire from heaven).

As to Ephraim, there is no Ephraim among the 12 tribes listed in Revelation 7. That is because Ephraim worships the abomination idol.

Hosea 10
5The inhabitants of Samaria tremble for the calf of Beth-aven. Its people mourn for it, and so do its idolatrous priests— those who rejoiced over it and over its glory— for it has departed from them.
6 The thing itself shall be carried to Assyria as tribute to the great king. Ephraim shall be put to shame, and Israel shall be ashamed of his idol. 7 Samaria’s king shall perish like a twig on the face of the waters. 8The high places of Aven, the sin of Israel, shall be destroyed. Thorn and thistle shall grow up on their altars, and they shall say to the mountains, “Cover us,” and to the hills, “Fall on us.”

[just like at the 6th Seal]
​

Hosea 13
16The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.”

'Good' and faithful Ephraim as you describe it is to be located in the 'great multitude' (the word 'Ephraim' means 'great multitude'.)

 

[Zao is life]

What you said about the 7 seals having to be opened has to equally apply to the 7 Trumpets having to occur before the 7 Bowls are poured out.

I'm not looking at a chronological sequence of "first the seals, then the trumpets, then the bowls". I'm looking at the fact that the events are written in the scroll, not on the seals. So each seal's vision opens our understanding to what's written in the scroll. And you won't understand the seal either until you see what it signifies when you see it written in the scroll.

 

[tranquil]

Doesn't work, because the saints in Revelation 7 are not identified as disembodied souls the way those at the 5th seal are.
We already see what Martyred disembodied souls in heaven look like, that's the 5th seal, not a "great tribulation" that comes after the 6th seal, which again, ignores what Jesus said that the sun and moon darken IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation.
So anything taking place after the sun and moon darken is not tribulation, it's wrath of God.

That's what Jesus said, you're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with Jesus.

It's a bit rude to say that I disagree with Jesus when debating. Just stick to your argument.

29“Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.​

Where are people gathered in Revelation?

At the 7th Seal, at the 6th Trumpet (the 200 million is a reference to Psalm 68:17), and at the end of the 2 witnesses 1260 days/ start of the 7th Trumpet.

Where is the 'sun darkened, moon darkened, stars fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens shaken'? Trumpets 1-4 and at the 5th, 6th, and 7th Bowl of wrath

Revelation 16

10The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish 11and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds.

12The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. 14For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. 15(“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

17The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings,c peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. 19The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found. 21And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe.
​

The bowls here are the real 'end' of the tribulation period.

 

[tranquil]

I'm not looking at a chronological sequence of "first the seals, then the trumpets, then the bowls". I'm looking at the fact that the events are written in the scroll, not on the seals. So each seal's vision opens our understanding to what's written in the scroll. And you won't understand the seal either until you see what it signifies when you see it written in the scroll.

So you are saying that the 1st Trumpet is the exact time and event that is described as the 1st Bowl of wrath, and so on down the line. This cannot be true.

That would mean that the 6th Bowl war ('Armageddon') is not, in fact, removing the beast, but is instead, establishing the beast? Why? Why not just understand it in a linear fashion?

 

[Jamdoc]

No it isn't. Just because the details: i.e the name etc have not all been given, does not mean it's not specific or that's it's 'allegorical'. The Bible is saturated with allegory, but it's pretty good at defining what needs defining. Those who have eyes to see will see and understand the apostasy that accompanies the rise of the man of sin, and they will recognize the AoD in the holy place for who he is when the time comes.

You've taken the Bible's definition of the naos (the holy place of the presence of God) and the Revelation's definition of the holy city and turned it into something it isn't, just because you don't believe the Revelation is using metaphor, or it's somehow become illegal for the Bible to use metaphor.

The bible does use metaphor, but when it does, it explains the metaphor. No such explanation is given in Revelation 11 regarding the holy city.

Revelation 11 does have an example of metaphor being used, which you quoted earlier but hey, I'll agree with you here

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jerusalem is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, it can't be literal, because the text itself identifies that it is a metaphor, and designates that it is the city where or Lord was crucified, which specifies it as Jerusalem literally.

But that kind of language is not used previously when talking about the temple.

When you allegorize the Abomination of Desolation, you leave it open to ANYTHING happening, making it not a sign that indicates the Great Tribulation is going to start or Jesus is returning within the next 3.5 years, which is the point of Jesus pointing out the event, so that we know that Great Tribulation comes next and can flee from it, and that Jesus' return comes shortly after to give us hope through that persecution.
When you allegorize a specific event it means any pastor who brags about himself in some 2 bit church in the Ozarks with a congregation of 20 could be seen as the Abomination of Desolation. It just leads to crying wolf.

Unless you're a Catholic and declaring that it's referring to the Pope, which is an entirely other can of worms but I don't think I should go into a rant about Catholicism here.

I mean leaders of various churches do all kinds of abominable things. the pope included. Pope Francis has had an astounding amount of statements that conflict with scripture, and the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church declared the invasion of Ukraine "holy".

So if the Abomination of Desolation is referring to something that takes place in a spread apart body of believers of dozens of denominations and thousands and thousands of churches world wide?
We've had hundreds if not thousands of "abomination of desolations" for the past 1900 years.

 

[Jamdoc]

It's a bit rude to say that I disagree with Jesus when debating. Just stick to your argument.

29“Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.​

Where are people gathered in Revelation?

At the 7th Seal, at the 6th Trumpet (the 200 million is a reference to Psalm 68:17), and at the end of the 2 witnesses 1260 days/ start of the 7th Trumpet.

Where is the 'sun darkened, moon darkened, stars fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens shaken'? Trumpets 1-4 and at the 5th, 6th, and 7th Bowl of wrath

Revelation 16

10The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish 11and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds.

12The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. 14For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. 15(“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

17The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings,c peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. 19The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found. 21And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe.
​

The bowls here are the real 'end' of the tribulation period.

Jesus didn't say at the start of the great tribulation the sun and moon will darken, but that's what you are saying. Jesus said that happens at the end.
therefore the disagreement was with Jesus.

as for the other darkenings of the sky, sure, but if you'll note the things that Jesus talks about in the Olivet Discourse that believers will see, it corresponds to the first 5 seals, not anything remotely close to the 7 trumpets or 7 vials.
Those in Christ will not experience the trumpets and vials. So any darkening of the sun and moon after the 6th seal is somewhat irrelevant to us. But Jesus says that they darken immediately after the tribulation that disciples will go through. Not that the sun and moon are going to darken multiple times and THEN they get deliverance. It goes up to the sixth seal.. and then ends there.

 

[tranquil]

Jesus didn't say at the start of the great tribulation the sun and moon will darken, but that's what you are saying. Jesus said that happens at the end.
therefore the disagreement was with Jesus.

Here is the sequence, from Jesus Himself
Matt 24

15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.​

Abomination, then false christs arise.

Abomination, then 'immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun, moon darkened, powers of heaven shaken'

After this particular segment of the tribulation, people are looking for a christ who is allotted x amount of time. People are deceived.

After the false christs have their allotted time, the 5,6,7th bowls darken the sun, moon, and the powers of the heavens are shaken.'

to illustrate this idea of the 'moving' abomination idol read
Zech 2

1 Then I lifted up my eyes and saw a man with a measuring line in his hand. 2 “Where are you going?” I asked.

“To measure Jerusalem,” he replied, “and to determine its width and length.” 3 Then the angel who was speaking with me went out, and another angel came out to meet him 4 and said to him, “Run and tell that young man: ‘Jerusalem will be a city without walls because of the multitude of men and livestock within it. 5 For I will be a wall of fire around it, declares the LORD, and I will be the glory within it.’ ”​

Zech 4

11Then I asked the angel, “What are the two olive trees on the right and left of the lampstand?” 12And I questioned him further, “What are the two olive branches beside the two gold pipes from which the golden oil pours?” 13“Do you not know what these are?” he inquired.

“No, my lord,” I replied.

14So he said, “These are the two anointed ones who are standing beside the Lord of all the earth.”​

Zech 5

1Again I lifted up my eyes and saw before me a flying scroll. 2“What do you see?” asked the angel.

“I see a flying scroll,” I replied, “twenty cubits long and ten cubits wide.” 3 Then he told me, “This is the curse that is going out over the face of all the land, for according to one side of the scroll, every thief will be removed; and according to the other side, every perjurer will be removed. 4 I will send it out, declares the LORD of Hosts, and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of him who swears falsely by My name. It will remain inside his house and destroy it, down to its timbers and stones.” 5Then the angel who was speaking with me came forward and told me, “Now lift up your eyes and see what is approaching.” 6“What is it?” I asked.

And he replied, “A measuring basket is going forth.” Then he continued, “This is their iniquity in all the land.” 7And behold, the cover of lead was raised, and there was a woman sitting inside the basket. 8“This is Wickedness,” he said. And he shoved her down into the basket, pushing down the lead cover over its opening. 9Then I lifted up my eyes and saw two women approaching, with the wind in their wings. Their wings were like those of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between heaven and earth. 10“Where are they taking the basket?” I asked the angel who was speaking with me.

11“To build a house for it in the land of Shinar,” he told me. “And when it is ready, the basket will be set there on its pedestal.”​

There are 2 witnesses being anointed in Jerusalem: new Joshua (who is called the Branch in Zechariah 3:8) and new Zerubabbel. There is also a 'thief and one who swears falsely by my name'.

The 'wickedness' is the abomination idol that is being taken from Jerusalem to Shinar ('Babylon').

In Isaiah 14, 'Lucifer', the king of Babylon is called the 'worthless Branch'. When the idol is removed from Jerusalem, then after 1260 days it has its house in Shinar and is set on its pedestal.

During the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses, Lucifer is pretending to be the 'Branch', but instead is the worthless Branch who worships the idol at the start of the 7th Trumpet.

 

[Jamdoc]

Here is the sequence, from Jesus Himself
Matt 24

15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.​

Abomination, then false christs arise.

Abomination, then 'immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun, moon darkened, powers of heaven shaken'

After this particular segment of the tribulation, people are looking for a christ who is allotted x amount of time. People are deceived.

After the false christs have their allotted time, the 5,6,7th bowls darken the sun, moon, and the powers of the heavens are shaken.'

to illustrate this idea of the 'moving' abomination idol read
Zech 2

1 Then I lifted up my eyes and saw a man with a measuring line in his hand. 2 “Where are you going?” I asked.

“To measure Jerusalem,” he replied, “and to determine its width and length.” 3 Then the angel who was speaking with me went out, and another angel came out to meet him 4 and said to him, “Run and tell that young man: ‘Jerusalem will be a city without walls because of the multitude of men and livestock within it. 5 For I will be a wall of fire around it, declares the LORD, and I will be the glory within it.’ ”​

Zech 4

11Then I asked the angel, “What are the two olive trees on the right and left of the lampstand?” 12And I questioned him further, “What are the two olive branches beside the two gold pipes from which the golden oil pours?” 13“Do you not know what these are?” he inquired.

“No, my lord,” I replied.

14So he said, “These are the two anointed ones who are standing beside the Lord of all the earth.”​

Zech 5

1Again I lifted up my eyes and saw before me a flying scroll. 2“What do you see?” asked the angel.

“I see a flying scroll,” I replied, “twenty cubits long and ten cubits wide.” 3 Then he told me, “This is the curse that is going out over the face of all the land, for according to one side of the scroll, every thief will be removed; and according to the other side, every perjurer will be removed. 4 I will send it out, declares the LORD of Hosts, and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of him who swears falsely by My name. It will remain inside his house and destroy it, down to its timbers and stones.” 5Then the angel who was speaking with me came forward and told me, “Now lift up your eyes and see what is approaching.” 6“What is it?” I asked.

And he replied, “A measuring basket is going forth.” Then he continued, “This is their iniquity in all the land.” 7And behold, the cover of lead was raised, and there was a woman sitting inside the basket. 8“This is Wickedness,” he said. And he shoved her down into the basket, pushing down the lead cover over its opening. 9Then I lifted up my eyes and saw two women approaching, with the wind in their wings. Their wings were like those of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between heaven and earth. 10“Where are they taking the basket?” I asked the angel who was speaking with me.

11“To build a house for it in the land of Shinar,” he told me. “And when it is ready, the basket will be set there on its pedestal.”​

There are 2 witnesses being anointed in Jerusalem: new Joshua (who is called the Branch in Zechariah 3:8) and new Zerubabbel. There is also a 'thief and one who swears falsely by my name'.

The 'wickedness' is the abomination idol that is being taken from Jerusalem to Shinar ('Babylon').

In Isaiah 14, 'Lucifer', the king of Babylon is called the 'worthless Branch'. When the idol is removed from Jerusalem, then after 1260 days it has its house in Shinar and is set on its pedestal.

During the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses, Lucifer is pretending to be the 'Branch', but instead is the worthless Branch who worships the idol at the start of the 7th Trumpet.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days, referring back to the great tribulation that happens after the abomination of desolation...
not immediately before.

You're placing it immediately before the tribulation of those days.

and here's the real danger of what you're saying:

Jesus said His coming would be unmistakable, it'd be in the clouds, the sun and moon would darken, and heaven itself would be shaken... so don't believe it when someone says Jesus came back in an earthly manner and it's this guy having secret meetings behind closed doors or in caves or in the desert.

The Netflix show Messiah actually kinda went there with this, portraying someone who people believed was the second coming of Christ, who came according to the traditions of Islam (arriving in Damascus during ta time of war robed in yellow), but in an earthly manner, and eventually the show credited the "Messiah" as "the Dajjal" indicating that it was really the antichrist.
The show got banned in Jordan and other Muslim countries and then cancelled and didn't get a second season because of the controversy of basically saying the way that Muslims have predicted Isa to return is more pointing towards the antichrist than Christ, who will split open the sky on His return.

With you declaring the 6th seal as the Abomination of Desolation, what you are kind of doing without realizing, is using the signs Jesus used to describe His return... as the signs that happen when the Antichrist declares himself to be God.

That would add validity to to that claim, because the things Jesus described are happening after this declaration.. this must be the second coming.....

But that's not what Jesus said. Jesus didn't say that the abomination of desolation would have these cosmic events, rather He taught that the false messiahs will have people doing these claims about them but it will all be earthly, meeting in secret chambers, out in the desert.

His coming on the other hand.. cosmic and unmistakable.
and it happens immediately after the tribulation of those days.
and it lines up with the 6th seal.

 

[Zao is life]

So you are saying that the 1st Trumpet is the exact time and event that is described as the 1st Bowl of wrath, and so on down the line. This cannot be true.

That would mean that the 6th Bowl war ('Armageddon') is not, in fact, removing the beast, but is instead, establishing the beast? Why? Why not just understand it in a linear fashion?

How can the beast be established before the bottomless pit is opened when the beast ascends from the bottomless pit?

The beast's armies are written about in the 6th trumpet and the 6th bowl. The second "woe" is linked to both:

(A) The sixth trumpet (Revelation 9:12-13); and
(B) To the period during which the two witnesses are prophesying (Revelation 11:3-14).

The first "woe" is linked to the fifth trumpet, which is when the bottomless pit is opened (Revelation 8:13 - Revelation 9:1-12). The third "woe" is linked to the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:14-15).

The visions seen when the 6th seal is opened signifies that the battle of Armageddon is about to occur (the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl are talking about the armies of the beast being gathered for Armageddon):

6th seal: Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath has come; and who shall be able to stand? (Revelation 6:12-17).

Compare the above with the words of Jesus:

"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." (Revelation 16:15).

It's in the midst of the Revelation concerning the sixth plague/bowl of wrath that Jesus interjects,

"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." (Revelation 16:15).

 

[Douggg]

'Tribulation' is general, 'the great tribulation' is specific.

I agree.

The great tribulation is a specific future designated time - lasting from when the abomination of desolation is setup until Jesus's return.

The great tribulation will be 1335 days long, based on Daniel 12:11-12.

 

[Douggg]

It's a bit rude to say that I disagree with Jesus when debating.

That particular saying should be specific called out as a forum violation, in the forums rules.

 

[Jamdoc]

That particular saying should be specific called out as a forum violation, in the forums rules.

I pointed out exactly what he was disagreeing with
it wasn't arguing, it's just Jesus said end of the tribulation, and he was putting it at the beginning. It contradicts what's in Matthew 24.
there's really no other way to phrase it. Jesus said one thing, he contradicted it.
and it wasn't meant as a call out, it is not targeting him, but rather pointing out to him, for his own benefit, that he contradicted Jesus so he should reassess that interpretation.

 

[DavidPT]

I agree.

The great tribulation is a specific future designated time - lasting from when the abomination of desolation is setup until Jesus's return.

The great tribulation will be 1335 days long, based on Daniel 12:11-12.

Great tribulation is meaning the 42 month reign of the beast. That involves 1260 days not 1335 days. That means some of this is involving God's wrath which is not great tribulation but is after great tribulation. After 1260 days through 1335 days, this is apparently meaning the 6th seal. The 6th seal does not involve great tribulation. It is after great tribulation which just preceded it, and that it is time for God's vengeance, His wrath upon those that have been persecuting His church.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

It is during the 42 month reign of the beast that one initially receives the mark of the beast, and worship his image. During the 42 months no one worshiping the beast is experiencing any of the vials of wrath yet. That places the vials of wrath at the end of the 42 month reign. Revelation 13 doesn't even remotely depict anyone being bombarded with the vials of wrath at the time. And neither does Matthew 24:15-21, this same 42 months meant in Revelation 13.

 

[Douggg]

Great tribulation is meaning the 42 month reign of the beast. That involves 1260 days not 1335 days. That means some of this is involving God's wrath which is not great tribulation but is after great tribulation. After 1260 days through 1335 days, this is apparently meaning the 6th seal. The 6th seal does not involve great tribulation. It is after great tribulation which just preceded it, and that it is time for God's vengeance, His wrath upon those that have been persecuting His church.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

It is during the 42 month reign of the beast that one initially receives the mark of the beast, and worship his image. During the 42 months no one worshiping the beast is experiencing any of the vials of wrath yet. That places the vials of wrath at the end of the 42 month reign. Revelation 13 doesn't even remotely depict anyone being bombarded with the vials of wrath at the time. And neither does Matthew 24:15-21, this same 42 months meant in Revelation 13.

David, you are trying to mix too many things together. Narrow it down to just the abomination of desolation.

The 42 months of the beast's rule are not the basis for the beginning of the great tribulation. The abomination of desolation standing in the holy place is.

1. Determine what the abomination desolation is.
2. What is meant by standing.
3. What is the holy place.

1. From Daniel 12:11-12 the abomination desolation is something setup. A thing.

2. Standing - would mean the thing is in an upright standing stance.

3. The holy place has to be some place where the abomination of desolation thing is visible for the public's eye - in order for them in Judea to know to flee to the mountains.

Which is on the temple mount - the holy place - out in the open.

Antiochus prefigured what the abomination of desolation will be - a statue image.

According to Daniel 12:11-12, there are 1335 days involving said abomination of desolation. Which actually begins BEFORE the 42 months of the beast's rule - which he is not hampered by the two witnesses (who will have departed to heaven).

Day 1, the 7 years begin (2520 days).
Day 1185, aod setup.
Day 1260, two witnesses killed.
Day 1263.5, two witnesses come back to life, called up to heaven.
*Day 1263.5 - Day 2520, the beast rules unhampered by the two witnesses.

* That timeframe is called 42 months in Revelation 13.

 

[DavidPT]

*Day 1263.5 - Day 2520, the beast rules unhampered by the two witnesses.

* That timeframe is called 42 months in Revelation 13.

Where in Matthew 24 do you have matching this period of time? From what verse to what verse?

 

[Douggg]

Where in Matthew 24 do you have matching this period of time? From what verse to what verse?

From v15 to v30.