Futurist Only Calling God's wrath "the tribulation" is false

[Zao is life]

Why is this important?

Not getting the terminology right = not getting the eschatology right = more confusion than ever.

"The tribulation" or "The (great) tribulation" is about the tribulation of the saints.

Persecution of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Persecution of the woman who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13

Tribulation of apostles or Christians: Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9, 21 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:19, 24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14

Great Tribulation: Mentioned only three times in the New Testament and each time it's the experience of Christians: Revelation 2:22; Revelation 7:14; 'Olivet Discourse': Matthew 24:21.

In the entire New Testament there are only two New Testament references to tribulation to be experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.

2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

Tribulation is not the same as wrath (whether local or universal), or judgment (whether local or universal).

1. WRATH

God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7).

2. JUDGMENT

God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger (thymós in the Greek; chârôn in the Hebrew), but it’s not always a final judgement nor is it always a universal judgment:

A final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city at the time Jerusalem was destroyed by the armies of Babylon, but a final judgement did come upon Babylon (Jeremiah 50:13) when the wrath of God came upon the city a few decades later.

Hundreds of years later, Jesus prophesied about another judgement that was to come upon the people of Jerusalem, and He mentions this judgement as coming about as a result of God’s wrath:

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (ἀνάγκη anánkē) in the land and wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) upon this people." (Luke 21:23).

Notice the above is not called tribulation in the above verse, but wrath.

UNIVERSAL JUDGMENT

The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being universally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved.

The last time we read about humanity being universally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

 

[DavidPT]

Why is this important?

Not getting the terminology right = not getting the eschatology right = more confusion than ever.

"The tribulation" or "The (great) tribulation is about the tribulation of the saints.

Persecution of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Persecution of the woman who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13

Tribulation of apostles or Christians: Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9, 21 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:19, 24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14

Great Tribulation: Mentioned only three times in the New Testament and each time it's the experience of Christians: Revelation 2:22; Revelation 7:14; 'Olivet Discourse': Matthew 24:21.

In the entire New Testament there are only two New Testament references to tribulation to be experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.

2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

Tribulation is not the same as wrath (whether local or universal), or judgment (whether local or universal).

1. WRATH

God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7).

2. JUDGMENT

God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger (thymós in the Greek; chârôn in the Hebrew), but it’s not always a final judgement nor is it always a universal judgment:

A final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city at the time Jerusalem was destroyed by the armies of Babylon, but a final judgement did come upon Babylon (Jeremiah 50:13) when the wrath of God came upon the city a few decades later.

Hundreds of years later, Jesus prophesied about another judgement that was to come upon the people of Jerusalem, and He mentions this judgement as coming about as a result of God’s wrath:

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (ἀνάγκη anánkē) in the land and wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) upon this people." (Luke 21:23).

Notice the above is not called tribulation in the above verse, but wrath.

UNIVERSAL JUDGMENT

The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being universally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved.

The last time we read about humanity being universally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

I can't speak for anyone else, but there is not one thing in your post I disagree with. Or at least I don't think there is.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Look what happens if we apply this to the first century and what all happened in 70 AD.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


If Matthew 24:21 is pertaining to the first century and what ultimately happened in 70 AD, in order to be consistent, the fact it was mainly unbelieving Jews who lost their lives at the time, that means we have to interpret verse 22 above like such.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no unbelieving Jew's flesh be saved: but for the Jews sake those days shall be shortened.

Which then means, in order to continue to be consistent one then must interpret verse 14 in Revelation 7 like such---And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are unbelieving Jews which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Except no one would interpret verse 14 like that, so why interpret verses 21-22 in Matthew 24 to be involving great tribulation of unbelieving Jews in the first century? How does that square with what is recorded in Revelation 7:14? It doesn't, not even remotely.

 

[Zao is life]

I can't speak for anyone else, but there is not one thing in your post I disagree with. Or at least I don't think there is.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Look what happens if we apply this to the first century and what all happened in 70 AD.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


If Matthew 24:21 is pertaining to the first century and what ultimately happened in 70 AD, in order to be consistent, the fact it was mainly unbelieving Jews who lost their lives at the time, that means we have to interpret verse 22 above like such.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no unbelieving Jew's flesh be saved: but for the Jews sake those days shall be shortened.

Which then means, in order to continue to be consistent one then must interpret verse 14 in Revelation 7 like such---And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are unbelieving Jews which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Except no one would interpret verse 14 like that, so why interpret verses 21-22 in Matthew 24 to be involving great tribulation of unbelieving Jews in the first century? How does that square with what is recorded in Revelation 7:14? It doesn't, not even remotely.

Likewise there is not one thing you say above I don't agree with.

 

[tranquil]

Why is this important?

Not getting the terminology right = not getting the eschatology right = more confusion than ever.

"The tribulation" or "The (great) tribulation" is about the tribulation of the saints.

Persecution of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Persecution of the woman who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13

Tribulation of apostles or Christians: Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9, 21 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:19, 24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14

Great Tribulation: Mentioned only three times in the New Testament and each time it's the experience of Christians: Revelation 2:22; Revelation 7:14; 'Olivet Discourse': Matthew 24:21.

In the entire New Testament there are only two New Testament references to tribulation to be experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.

2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

Tribulation is not the same as wrath (whether local or universal), or judgment (whether local or universal).

1. WRATH

God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7).

2. JUDGMENT

God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger (thymós in the Greek; chârôn in the Hebrew), but it’s not always a final judgement nor is it always a universal judgment:

A final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city at the time Jerusalem was destroyed by the armies of Babylon, but a final judgement did come upon Babylon (Jeremiah 50:13) when the wrath of God came upon the city a few decades later.

Hundreds of years later, Jesus prophesied about another judgement that was to come upon the people of Jerusalem, and He mentions this judgement as coming about as a result of God’s wrath:

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (ἀνάγκη anánkē) in the land and wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) upon this people." (Luke 21:23).

Notice the above is not called tribulation in the above verse, but wrath.

UNIVERSAL JUDGMENT

The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being universally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved.

The last time we read about humanity being universally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

I'm not sure what your point is?

'Tribulation' is general, 'the great tribulation' is specific. The 'great tribulation' is God's wrath upon worshipers of the abomination, both of which arrive simultaneously. The faithful will 'come out of the great tribulation' and not be subject to God's wrath - because they aren't worshiping it. They are still on earth during the time of the 'great tribulation', but not experiencing it.

 

[Timtofly]

Tribulation was Jacob's trouble. Coming out of great tribulation is the state of the church for the last 1992 years. The Great Tribulation is the final harvest: the Trumpets and Thunders.

The wrath of God are the 7 vials after Satan's 42 months are over.

 

[Zao is life]

I'm not sure what your point is?

'Tribulation' is general, 'the great tribulation' is specific. The 'great tribulation' is God's wrath upon worshipers of the abomination, both of which arrive simultaneously. The faithful will 'come out of the great tribulation' and not be subject to God's wrath - because they aren't worshiping it. They are still on earth during the time of the 'great tribulation', but not experiencing it.

I'm not sure what your point is either.

Tribulation and wrath are not referring to the same thing.

The saints experience the great tribulation. The faithful saints will not escape it just because the wrath of God will come upon the world afterwards.

 

[Jamdoc]

I'm not sure what your point is?

'Tribulation' is general, 'the great tribulation' is specific. The 'great tribulation' is God's wrath upon worshipers of the abomination, both of which arrive simultaneously. The faithful will 'come out of the great tribulation' and not be subject to God's wrath - because they aren't worshiping it. They are still on earth during the time of the 'great tribulation', but not experiencing it.

When Jesus talks about tribulation He is not just meaning "bad thing happens" but refers specifically to persecution.

Matthew 13 is the first time uses the word tribulation, and Jesus defines it as being persecution, specifically, persecution of those who believe but have no root.

In the Olivet Discourse Jesus frames what the Great Tribulation is in events that can be traced in other books of the bible.

Matthew 24

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

2 takeaways on timing here. #1 The Great Tribulation does not start until the Abomination of Desolation, which from Daniel, we know is at the midpoint of the 70th week. Right there all notions of the unbiblical "7 year tribulation" should be dropped.
#2. It will be shortened, the Antichrist may be given power for 42 months, but for the elect, they will not endure a full 42 months. By how much they'll be shortened, we are not told, only the Father knows.

and the ending frame, also Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

now compare to Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

2 takeaways again on timing
#1. According to the words of Jesus, and comparing with Revelation, we see that the Great Tribulation ends before the 6th seal
#2. Right after this sixth seal, is the wrath of God. Not before, but after. Before at the 5th seal, you had the martyred saints crying out for God to avenge them, they're told to wait. So the first 5 seals.. not the wrath of God. After the 6th seal, is the wrath of God.

and, to conclude on this part and make a point... what would you expect if at the 6th seal Jesus returned in the clouds, and the angels gathered the elect as in the Olivet Discourse, and the rapture spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4? You'd expect the saints to be in heaven. That's what Revelation 7 shows... saints in heaven praising God, an uncountable multitude of them! This is different from what was before the 6th seal, where the martyred saints of the 5th seal, which I propose is "Great Tribulation" were identified as souls, and were crying out to God to avenge them. Here their whole attitude is changed, and they're doing things that people with bodies do, like wear clothes and carry objects in their hands. The 5th seal they're handed out white robes but don't wear them. It's like they're being told "get ready, resurrection incoming!" 6th seal happens.. suddenly they're joyful and wearing white robes.

Now as to tribulation within the Olivet Discourse...
one of my pet peeves, is when people claim that the Olivet Discourse is to unbelieving Jews.
There were no pharisees in the audience. Jesus spoke privately to four of His disciples according to Mark 13

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
5 And Jesus answering them began to say...

These aren't unbelieving unsaved Jews.. these are believers who's names are written in heaven!.

and when Jesus talks about the things that come.. He doesn't say "when they see" or "then they shall deliver them up".. It's "when ye therefore shall see" It is believers who will see these things and recognize them as the signs Jesus spoke of.
now.. this is going to be one of those rare times I use a translation other than the King James, but hey, I'm not King James Only, I just prefer King James, but the ESV does this verse in a way I find fitting for this discussion, so here we go with the ESV

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.

Again, 2 takeaways here.
#1. Jesus includes believers as the target of this tribulation
#2. Jesus equates tribulation to persecution of believers by wicked men. Not supernatural disasters. Not demon armies.... but persecution of believers by men... by all nations, for Jesus' name's sake.

I feel like I need a drum to just bang on to deliver the point here..
that this is to believers, not to unbelieving Israel, both the target audience of the message, and the target of the persecution.

 

[Zao is life]

When Jesus talks about tribulation He is not just meaning "bad thing happens" but refers specifically to persecution.

Matthew 13 is the first time uses the word tribulation, and Jesus defines it as being persecution, specifically, persecution of those who believe but have no root.

In the Olivet Discourse Jesus frames what the Great Tribulation is in events that can be traced in other books of the bible.

Matthew 24


2 takeaways on timing here. #1 The Great Tribulation does not start until the Abomination of Desolation, which from Daniel, we know is at the midpoint of the 70th week. Right there all notions of the unbiblical "7 year tribulation" should be dropped.
#2. It will be shortened, the Antichrist may be given power for 42 months, but for the elect, they will not endure a full 42 months. By how much they'll be shortened, we are not told, only the Father knows.

and the ending frame, also Matthew 24


now compare to Revelation 6


2 takeaways again on timing
#1. According to the words of Jesus, and comparing with Revelation, we see that the Great Tribulation ends before the 6th seal
#2. Right after this sixth seal, is the wrath of God. Not before, but after. Before at the 5th seal, you had the martyred saints crying out for God to avenge them, they're told to wait. So the first 5 seals.. not the wrath of God. After the 6th seal, is the wrath of God.

and, to conclude on this part and make a point... what would you expect if at the 6th seal Jesus returned in the clouds, and the angels gathered the elect as in the Olivet Discourse, and the rapture spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4? You'd expect the saints to be in heaven. That's what Revelation 7 shows... saints in heaven praising God, an uncountable multitude of them! This is different from what was before the 6th seal, where the martyred saints of the 5th seal, which I propose is "Great Tribulation" were identified as souls, and were crying out to God to avenge them. Here their whole attitude is changed, and they're doing things that people with bodies do, like wear clothes and carry objects in their hands. The 5th seal they're handed out white robes but don't wear them. It's like they're being told "get ready, resurrection incoming!" 6th seal happens.. suddenly they're joyful and wearing white robes.

Now as to tribulation within the Olivet Discourse...
one of my pet peeves, is when people claim that the Olivet Discourse is to unbelieving Jews.
There were no pharisees in the audience. Jesus spoke privately to four of His disciples according to Mark 13

These aren't unbelieving unsaved Jews.. these are believers who's names are written in heaven!.

and when Jesus talks about the things that come.. He doesn't say "when they see" or "then they shall deliver them up".. It's "when ye therefore shall see" It is believers who will see these things and recognize them as the signs Jesus spoke of.
now.. this is going to be one of those rare times I use a translation other than the King James, but hey, I'm not King James Only, I just prefer King James, but the ESV does this verse in a way I find fitting for this discussion, so here we go with the ESV


Again, 2 takeaways here.
#1. Jesus includes believers as the target of this tribulation
#2. Jesus equates tribulation to persecution of believers by wicked men. Not supernatural disasters. Not demon armies.... but persecution of believers by men... by all nations, for Jesus' name's sake.

I feel like I need a drum to just bang on to deliver the point here..
that this is to believers, not to unbelieving Israel, both the target audience of the message, and the target of the persecution.

Copy @tranquil for info

I agree with everything you said above, except one small thing (which I will get to in my next reply to your post). But in confirmation of your post above, the Greek words used in the New Testament for the holy place also tell us everything we need to know about Matthew 24:15

THE HOLY CITY AND THE HOLY PLACE​

1. The holy city​

The word holy in the biblical sense means “set apart unto God” or “consecrated unto God”.

There is no city mentioned in the Revelation other than:-

(i) New Jerusalem; and

(ii) Babylon the Great, or the city"spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Revelation 11:8).

There is no verse in the Revelation where Babylon the Great is called "the holy city", but the Revelation calls New Jerusalem the holy city three times:- Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19.

* Revelation 11:2 is talking about the holy city.

* The other city referred to in Revelation chapter 11, is referred to as a city that is "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Revelation 11:8).

Here are all the verses in the New Testament referring to the holy city:-

(i) Before the tearing of the veil:

Matthew 4:5 Then the Devil took Him up into the holy city and set Him upon a pinnacle of the Temple.

(ii) After the tearing of the veil:

Matthew 27:53 After His resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

(iii) The four remaining references to the holy city are in the Revelation (already mentioned above).

This means that the New Testament is identifying only New Jerusalem as the holy city following the death and resurrection of Christ. It does the same with the Greek word employed to denote the place of the holy presence (naós):

The Greek word hierón is used in reference to the physical temple complex in Jerusalem. But the word naós is used:-

-- for the holy place in the Jerusalem temple complex --:

Luke 1:9 & 21-22; Matthew 23:16-17 & 21; Matthew 23:35; Matthew 27:5; John 2:20; Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45.

-- for the body of Christ --:

(John 2:19 & 21; Matthew 26:61; Matthew 27:40; Mark 14:58; Mark 15:29)

-- in the verses telling of the tearing of the veil -- *:

Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45.

* The last time the word naós is used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem, is in the verses which talk about the tearing of the veil (Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45). After this, the first time the word is used again is in Acts:

Acts 7:48a
But, the Most High does not dwell in temples (Greek: naos) made with hands.

Acts 17:24
The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples (Greek naos) made with hands.

Compare the above two verses with:

Hebrews 9
24 For Christ has not entered into the Holy of Holies made with (human) hands, which are the figures of the true, but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.

From then on the word naós is only used for:

-- the bodies of individual believers, the church, & the temple in heaven --

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 & 1 Corinthians 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:4; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 7:15; Revelation 11:1-2; Revelation 11:19; Revelation 14:15 & Revelation 14:17; Revelation 15:5-6 & Revelation 15:8; Revelation 16:1 & Revelation 16:17; Revelation 21:22

Therefore since the temple in Jerusalem is not considered the place of the holy presence of God (the holy place) following the tearing of the veil, the reader is given everything he needs in order to understand what the holy place in Matthew 24:15 is referring to (especially since it's linked to Matthew 24:9-14 and everything that follows through Matthew 24:31).

 

[Zao is life]

When Jesus talks about tribulation He is not just meaning "bad thing happens" but refers specifically to persecution.

Matthew 13 is the first time uses the word tribulation, and Jesus defines it as being persecution, specifically, persecution of those who believe but have no root.

In the Olivet Discourse Jesus frames what the Great Tribulation is in events that can be traced in other books of the bible.

Matthew 24


2 takeaways on timing here. #1 The Great Tribulation does not start until the Abomination of Desolation, which from Daniel, we know is at the midpoint of the 70th week. Right there all notions of the unbiblical "7 year tribulation" should be dropped.
#2. It will be shortened, the Antichrist may be given power for 42 months, but for the elect, they will not endure a full 42 months. By how much they'll be shortened, we are not told, only the Father knows.

and the ending frame, also Matthew 24


now compare to Revelation 6


2 takeaways again on timing
#1. According to the words of Jesus, and comparing with Revelation, we see that the Great Tribulation ends before the 6th seal
#2. Right after this sixth seal, is the wrath of God. Not before, but after. Before at the 5th seal, you had the martyred saints crying out for God to avenge them, they're told to wait. So the first 5 seals.. not the wrath of God. After the 6th seal, is the wrath of God.

and, to conclude on this part and make a point... what would you expect if at the 6th seal Jesus returned in the clouds, and the angels gathered the elect as in the Olivet Discourse, and the rapture spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4? You'd expect the saints to be in heaven. That's what Revelation 7 shows... saints in heaven praising God, an uncountable multitude of them! This is different from what was before the 6th seal, where the martyred saints of the 5th seal, which I propose is "Great Tribulation" were identified as souls, and were crying out to God to avenge them. Here their whole attitude is changed, and they're doing things that people with bodies do, like wear clothes and carry objects in their hands. The 5th seal they're handed out white robes but don't wear them. It's like they're being told "get ready, resurrection incoming!" 6th seal happens.. suddenly they're joyful and wearing white robes.

Now as to tribulation within the Olivet Discourse...
one of my pet peeves, is when people claim that the Olivet Discourse is to unbelieving Jews.
There were no pharisees in the audience. Jesus spoke privately to four of His disciples according to Mark 13

These aren't unbelieving unsaved Jews.. these are believers who's names are written in heaven!.

and when Jesus talks about the things that come.. He doesn't say "when they see" or "then they shall deliver them up".. It's "when ye therefore shall see" It is believers who will see these things and recognize them as the signs Jesus spoke of.
now.. this is going to be one of those rare times I use a translation other than the King James, but hey, I'm not King James Only, I just prefer King James, but the ESV does this verse in a way I find fitting for this discussion, so here we go with the ESV


Again, 2 takeaways here.
#1. Jesus includes believers as the target of this tribulation
#2. Jesus equates tribulation to persecution of believers by wicked men. Not supernatural disasters. Not demon armies.... but persecution of believers by men... by all nations, for Jesus' name's sake.

I feel like I need a drum to just bang on to deliver the point here..
that this is to believers, not to unbelieving Israel, both the target audience of the message, and the target of the persecution.

copy @tranquil for info
copy @DavidPT for info

There's only one small thing I want to mention about this:

(Based on the facts I presented in post # 8):

The AoD mentioned in Matthew 24:15 either refers to this (see below), OR to the abominations mentioned in Daniel 9:27 - but the abominations mentioned in Daniel 9:27 resulted in the destruction of the Jerusalem temple:

There are two separate themes where the word abomination is associated with the word desolation in the book of Daniel. Let's take a look at the first one, which is the abomination of desolation that was set up in the holy place by Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

Daniel 8:11; Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11 are referring to the abomination of desolation that was set up in the holy place by Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

COMMON THEMES: OLIVET DISCOURSE/
THE FINAL SON OF PERDITION (2 Thessalonians 2)​

Both passages involve the time of the end.
Both passages involve apostasy.
Both passages involve lawlessness of the part of Christians.
Both passages involve an abomination in the temple of God.
Both passages are talking about events leading up to the coming of the Son of man.

Let's compare what is said about A4E in Daniel 11:36-37 with what is said about the final son of perdition mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

(view the images and then scroll down and continue reading below the images):​

The AoD mentioned in Matthew 24:15 either refers to the anti-type of A4E, OR to the abominations mentioned in Daniel 9:27 - but the abominations mentioned in Daniel 9:27 resulted in the destruction of the Jerusalem temple.

A4E's abomination of desolation did not result in the destruction of the (second) temple - after the Maccabees ousted him, the temple was cleansed, sanctified and re-consecrated to God.

Personally, I don't believe the AoD mentioned in Matthew 24:15 has anything to do with the abominations mentioned in Daniel 9:27 which resulted in the destruction of the Jerusalem temple.

 

[tranquil]

When Jesus talks about tribulation He is not just meaning "bad thing happens" but refers specifically to persecution.

Matthew 13 is the first time uses the word tribulation, and Jesus defines it as being persecution, specifically, persecution of those who believe but have no root.

In the Olivet Discourse Jesus frames what the Great Tribulation is in events that can be traced in other books of the bible.

Matthew 24


2 takeaways on timing here. #1 The Great Tribulation does not start until the Abomination of Desolation, which from Daniel, we know is at the midpoint of the 70th week. Right there all notions of the unbiblical "7 year tribulation" should be dropped.
#2. It will be shortened, the Antichrist may be given power for 42 months, but for the elect, they will not endure a full 42 months. By how much they'll be shortened, we are not told, only the Father knows.

and the ending frame, also Matthew 24


now compare to Revelation 6


2 takeaways again on timing
#1. According to the words of Jesus, and comparing with Revelation, we see that the Great Tribulation ends before the 6th seal
#2. Right after this sixth seal, is the wrath of God. Not before, but after. Before at the 5th seal, you had the martyred saints crying out for God to avenge them, they're told to wait. So the first 5 seals.. not the wrath of God. After the 6th seal, is the wrath of God.

and, to conclude on this part and make a point... what would you expect if at the 6th seal Jesus returned in the clouds, and the angels gathered the elect as in the Olivet Discourse, and the rapture spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4? You'd expect the saints to be in heaven. That's what Revelation 7 shows... saints in heaven praising God, an uncountable multitude of them! This is different from what was before the 6th seal, where the martyred saints of the 5th seal, which I propose is "Great Tribulation" were identified as souls, and were crying out to God to avenge them. Here their whole attitude is changed, and they're doing things that people with bodies do, like wear clothes and carry objects in their hands. The 5th seal they're handed out white robes but don't wear them. It's like they're being told "get ready, resurrection incoming!" 6th seal happens.. suddenly they're joyful and wearing white robes.

Now as to tribulation within the Olivet Discourse...
one of my pet peeves, is when people claim that the Olivet Discourse is to unbelieving Jews.
There were no pharisees in the audience. Jesus spoke privately to four of His disciples according to Mark 13

These aren't unbelieving unsaved Jews.. these are believers who's names are written in heaven!.

and when Jesus talks about the things that come.. He doesn't say "when they see" or "then they shall deliver them up".. It's "when ye therefore shall see" It is believers who will see these things and recognize them as the signs Jesus spoke of.
now.. this is going to be one of those rare times I use a translation other than the King James, but hey, I'm not King James Only, I just prefer King James, but the ESV does this verse in a way I find fitting for this discussion, so here we go with the ESV


Again, 2 takeaways here.
#1. Jesus includes believers as the target of this tribulation
#2. Jesus equates tribulation to persecution of believers by wicked men. Not supernatural disasters. Not demon armies.... but persecution of believers by men... by all nations, for Jesus' name's sake.

I feel like I need a drum to just bang on to deliver the point here..
that this is to believers, not to unbelieving Israel, both the target audience of the message, and the target of the persecution.

2 takeaways on timing here. #1 The Great Tribulation does not start until the Abomination of Desolation, which from Daniel, we know is at the midpoint of the 70th week. Right there all notions of the unbiblical "7 year tribulation" should be dropped.
#2. It will be shortened, the Antichrist may be given power for 42 months, but for the elect, they will not endure a full 42 months. By how much they'll be shortened, we are not told, only the Father knows.

responding to #1: I don't adhere to a '7 year tribulation'. Yes, the 'great tribulation' starts at the abomination of desolation.
#2: Yes, it is shortened and we probably can know.

#1. According to the words of Jesus, and comparing with Revelation, we see that the Great Tribulation ends before the 6th seal
#2. Right after this sixth seal, is the wrath of God. Not before, but after. Before at the 5th seal, you had the martyred saints crying out for God to avenge them, they're told to wait. So the first 5 seals.. not the wrath of God. After the 6th seal, is the wrath of God.

and, to conclude on this part and make a point... what would you expect if at the 6th seal Jesus returned in the clouds, and the angels gathered the elect as in the Olivet Discourse, and the rapture spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4? You'd expect the saints to be in heaven. That's what Revelation 7 shows... saints in heaven praising God, an uncountable multitude of them! This is different from what was before the 6th seal, where the martyred saints of the 5th seal, which I propose is "Great Tribulation" were identified as souls, and were crying out to God to avenge them. Here their whole attitude is changed, and they're doing things that people with bodies do, like wear clothes and carry objects in their hands. The 5th seal they're handed out white robes but don't wear them. It's like they're being told "get ready, resurrection incoming!" 6th seal happens.. suddenly they're joyful and wearing white robes.

#1. No, the great tribulation is just beginning at the 6th Seal with the arrival of the abomination of desolation. The 4 winds are being held back specifically to protect the faithful. Then they are released. The 7 Trumpets and 7 bowls of wrath are the wrath of God.
#2. See above. Yes, the 5th Seal is not the wrath of God, it is persecution. Just as it has been for 2000 years.

Also, there is no 'whisked away' rapture. See John 17:15. Will there be dead Christians? Of course, and these would be in heaven. The living will be physically gathered, on earth.

The faithful will be protected just as Revelation 2:22-23 & Revelation 3:10 states.

Now as to tribulation within the Olivet Discourse... one of my pet peeves, is when people claim that the Olivet Discourse is to unbelieving Jews.

It is a pet peeve of mine as well. I have never said this or thought it.

Again, 2 takeaways here.
#1. Jesus includes believers as the target of this tribulation
#2. Jesus equates tribulation to persecution of believers by wicked men. Not supernatural disasters. Not demon armies.... but persecution of believers by men... by all nations, for Jesus' name's sake.

I feel like I need a drum to just bang on to deliver the point here..
that this is to believers, not to unbelieving Israel, both the target audience of the message, and the target of the persecution.

I agree with this. 'Shrugs'

In my opinion, the problem here lies in the understanding of the sequence of events.

The abomination of desolation that Jesus is talking about that is arriving in Matthew 24:15 is arriving in 'Ephraim'. This is the Sukkot start of the 7th Seal and start of the great tribulation. At the end of the 5 months of the 5th Trumpet is the arrival of the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem ('Christianity') (= Revelation 12:17). In other words, the people of 'Judea' (those in 'Jerusalem') have 5 months until the abomination of desolation gets to them. This is the 'winter Sabbath' start of the great tribulation in 'Jerusalem' at the start of the 6th Trumpet.

It is a symbolic representation of Jeremiah 1:13 Again the word of the LORD came to me, asking, “What do you see?” “I see a boiling pot,” I replied, “and it is tilting toward us from the north.” (Gog is invading 'Ephraim' 1st because the flood/ army is coming from the north. In 5 months it will reach Jerusalem.

Hopefully, you won't be offended by my use of hypothetical dates, as I find them useful for illustrating my points.

Daniel 9's literal 70 weeks begins on Jerusalem Day, the 'call to restore Jerusalem', dusk June 4, 2024.

7 weeks later comes an anointed one on July 23, 2024.

This anointed one places the abomination of desolation in Ephraim's holy place. (What this means is open to interpretation, I guess.) This is the start of the great tribulation on Sukkot, which is the feast day celebrating 'shelter' from the great tribulation. (Oct 17, 2024)

[thus, 'immediately after the tribulation of 'those days' from the anointing of the messiah on July 23, 2024 to the abomination in Ephraim, starts the 7 Trumpets. The 'stars fall' at the 'burning mountain' of the 2nd Trumpet and 3rd Trumpet of the star 'Wormwood'.]​

5 months later is the 'flood' into Jerusalem (the 'flood' is 150 days in Genesis 7:24). The anointed one places the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem ('spiritual Jerusalem'). This is the 6th Trumpet and 'winter Sabbath' great tribulation.

150 days later is the 62nd week marker - the 'flood' that ends with the end of the 7 week anointed one. This is the war at the 6th Trumpet that kills a third of mankind. Then 150 days later, the 62nd week anointed one comes and confirms the covenant, stopping the war. Then the 2 witnesses start their 1260 days. Then the 62nd week messiah breaks the covenant 'in the middle of the 7'.

In other words, the Beast from the Sea arrives at the 1st Trumpet and the False Prophet and his idol arrive at the 7th Trumpet. People who worship the abomination at this juncture will receive the 7 bowls of wrath.

I think one could summarize it as the abomination being at 'Ephraim' at the 1st Trumpet, 'Jerusalem' at the 6th Trumpet, and at Babylon/ Shinar at the 7th Trumpet.

As to the great tribulation being shortened, it is ended at the 62 week marker or at the 1290th day from the 1st appearance of the abomination at Sukkot 2024.

When the abomination appears at Babylon/ Shinar, the faithful will be living peacefully for a few months (post 1290 day/ post 1335th blessed day) before Gog appears again and then is destroyed at Armageddon. Put differently, the 1335th 'blessed day' will have happened, and then Gog will reappear again (the 'beast will arise from the abyss at the end of the 2nd woe, at the 7th Trumpet.

 

[Jamdoc]

Copy @tranquil for info

I agree with everything you said above, except one small thing (which I will get to in my next reply to your post). But in confirmation of your post above, the Greek words used in the New Testament for the holy place also tell us everything we need to know about Matthew 24:15

THE HOLY CITY AND THE HOLY PLACE​

1. The holy city​

The word holy in the biblical sense means “set apart unto God” or “consecrated unto God”.

There is no city mentioned in the Revelation other than:-

(i) New Jerusalem; and

(ii) Babylon the Great, or the city"spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Revelation 11:8).

There is no verse in the Revelation where Babylon the Great is called "the holy city", but the Revelation calls New Jerusalem the holy city three times:- Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19.

* Revelation 11:2 is talking about the holy city.

* The other city referred to in Revelation chapter 11, is referred to as a city that is "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Revelation 11:8).

Here are all the verses in the New Testament referring to the holy city:-

(i) Before the tearing of the veil:

Matthew 4:5 Then the Devil took Him up into the holy city and set Him upon a pinnacle of the Temple.

(ii) After the tearing of the veil:

Matthew 27:53 After His resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

(iii) The four remaining references to the holy city are in the Revelation (already mentioned above).

This means that the New Testament is identifying only New Jerusalem as the holy city following the death and resurrection of Christ. It does the same with the Greek word employed to denote the place of the holy presence (naós):

The Greek word hierón is used in reference to the physical temple complex in Jerusalem. But the word naós is used:-

-- for the holy place in the Jerusalem temple complex --:

Luke 1:9 & 21-22; Matthew 23:16-17 & 21; Matthew 23:35; Matthew 27:5; John 2:20; Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45.

-- for the body of Christ --:

(John 2:19 & 21; Matthew 26:61; Matthew 27:40; Mark 14:58; Mark 15:29)

-- in the verses telling of the tearing of the veil -- *:

Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45.

* The last time the word naós is used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem, is in the verses which talk about the tearing of the veil (Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45). After this, the first time the word is used again is in Acts:

Acts 7:48a
But, the Most High does not dwell in temples (Greek: naos) made with hands.

Acts 17:24
The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples (Greek naos) made with hands.

Compare the above two verses with:

Hebrews 9
24 For Christ has not entered into the Holy of Holies made with (human) hands, which are the figures of the true, but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.

From then on the word naós is only used for:

-- the bodies of individual believers, the church, & the temple in heaven --

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 & 1 Corinthians 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:4; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 7:15; Revelation 11:1-2; Revelation 11:19; Revelation 14:15 & Revelation 14:17; Revelation 15:5-6 & Revelation 15:8; Revelation 16:1 & Revelation 16:17; Revelation 21:22

Therefore since the temple in Jerusalem is not considered the place of the holy presence of God (the holy place) following the tearing of the veil, the reader is given everything he needs in order to understand what the holy place in Matthew 24:15 is referring to (especially since it's linked to Matthew 24:9-14 and everything that follows through Matthew 24:31).

Well, I can't agree with this aspect because a human heart isn't measured physically and the outer court given to the gentiles.
and if you're saying the Abomination of Desolation takes place in God's Temple in heaven, how would any living disciple of Jesus see it?
and if you're saying the Abomination of Desolation takes place in human hearts, again, that happens all the time where people worship a God other than Jesus, how do we take Jesus' instructions to flee into the mountains if we're in Judea in a practical manner? is it a certain number of people's hearts? A particular person's? Who's?

 

[Zao is life]

Well, I can't agree with this aspect because a human heart isn't measured physically and the outer court given to the gentiles.
and if you're saying the Abomination of Desolation takes place in God's Temple in heaven, how would any living disciple of Jesus see it?
and if you're saying the Abomination of Desolation takes place in human hearts, again, that happens all the time where people worship a God other than Jesus, how do we take Jesus' instructions to flee into the mountains if we're in Judea in a practical manner? is it a certain number of people's hearts? A particular person's? Who's?

You're taking a passage in Revelation that is using metaphor and is symbolic of the church and trying to apply it literally.

The New Jerusalem, i.e the holy city is not a physical location. It's populated by saints in heaven and on earth.

@Jamdoc One leader in the church exalting himself and being exalted by the saints seating himself up in the one church, the one body of Christ on earth and claiming to be God = the abomination of desolation in the holy place.

 

[Jamdoc]

#1. No, the great tribulation is just beginning at the 6th Seal with the arrival of the abomination of desolation.

You went off the rails here, and admittedly I didn't read all of the post because you went off the rails so critically here.
The 6th seal aligns with Matthew 24:29. That indicates the end of great tribulation, not the beginning.
Revelation 7:14 also says that the great multitude came out of great tribulation.
and again, they are in bodies, they are not disembodied souls, contrasting with after the 5th seal where they are identified as souls, and they are complaining. Realize that being a disembodied soul is not a natural state for us, and is not what God intended for us to be. Adam was created body first, and then became a living soul. Not soul first and then a body was created after.

So in 1 line you disagreed with Jesus, and inserted your own idea of what great tribulation is rather than believing Jesus on it, and ignored what Revelation 7 actually says.

 

[Jamdoc]

You're taking a passage in Revelation that is using metaphor and is symbolic of the church and trying to apply it literally.

The New Jerusalem, i.e the holy city is not a physical location. It's populated by saints in heaven and on earth.

@Jamdoc One leader in the church exalting himself and being exalted by the saints seating himself up in the one church, the one body of Christ on earth and claiming to be God = the abomination of desolation in the holy place.

That's not a singular event that we can watch for and take Jesus' practical advice to heart on. The Abomination of Desolation is a singular event that everyone will know about and be able to take action on when it is recognized. That's why Paul taught about it, that's why Jesus specified it. It's a timing marker.

Allegorizing it and making it non specific takes away any usefulness it has as a timing marker or sign.

 

[Zao is life]

The 4 winds are being held back specifically to protect the faithful. Then they are released. The 7 Trumpets and 7 bowls of wrath are the wrath of God.

Yes, and the vision seen in the 7th seal tells us this, because "voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake" are always symbols of God speaking from heaven: We see it in Exodus 20:18, we see it used in poetic form by David in 2 Samuel 22:14-15, we see it proceeding from the throne of God in Revelation 4:5.

Any scroll sealed with seals can only unroll once all the seals have been loosened (which is why you only see the 1st trumpet sounding once the 7th seal had been loosened).

I believe that what is seen in the SEALS are VISIONS that SIGNIFY something about THE EVENTS that are written about IN THE SCROLL; and the VISIONS are:

A. Not events themselves, and also not the events written about in the scroll; and
B. Should not be taken literally:

Only after reading the events written about in the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl of wrath, do we realize that the vision John sees when the seventh seal is loosened, symbolizes God's judgment:

(7th Trumpet) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

(7th bowl) And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

(7th seal) And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

The scroll opened because the seals had all been loosened. That;s why it also introduces the first trumpet.

Yes, the 5th Seal is not the wrath of God, it is persecution. Just as it has been for 2000 years.

Yes because the vision tells us something about what's written on the scroll:

The 5th trumpet has the bottomless pit being opened, and elsewhere we are told that the beast ascends from the same bottomless pit. That beast will make war against the saints and overcome, and will martyr the two witnesses when they complete their testimony. So we are told:

(5th seal) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

(The 5th bowl) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

(The 5th trumpet) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

So it is with the visions of the 6th seal: They tell us about the events in the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl. Both the 6th trumpet and the 6th bowl have armies gathering.

Also, there is no 'whisked away' rapture.

I agree. I also agree that the Lord will keep the faithful from that hour of trial - but here on earth, before their resurrection.

The abomination of desolation that Jesus is talking about that is arriving in Matthew 24:15 is arriving in 'Ephraim'.

God's Israel = the remnant of Ephraim & Judah who are in Christ:

Genesis 48:19 And his father refused and said, I know, my son, I know. He (Manasseh) also shall become a people, and he also shall be great, but truly his younger brother (Ephraim) shall be greater than he is, and his seed shall become the fullness of the Gentiles (Hebrew m'lo goy, translated into English Bibles as "a multitude of nations").

Isaiah 7:8-9
"For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within sixty-five years Ephraim shall be broken so that it shall not be a people. And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son."

Hosea 1:6b-11a
“For I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel. But I will utterly take them away.

But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son. Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for all of you are not my people, and I will not be your God.
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered;
and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, All of you are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, All of you are the sons of the living God.

Paul:

"What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared unto glory,

Even us, whom he has called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

As he says also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, All of you are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God." (Romans 9:22-26).

I believe that the Gentiles who are grafted into Israel = Ephraim.

I don't know about the rest of what you were saying. But I agree with the above, for the reasons I gave (although you may disagree with my reasons).

 

[Zao is life]

That's not a singular event that we can watch for and take Jesus' practical advice to heart on. The Abomination of Desolation is a singular event that everyone will know about and be able to take action on when it is recognized. That's why Paul taught about it, that's why Jesus specified it. It's a timing marker.

Allegorizing it and making it non specific takes away any usefulness it has as a timing marker or sign.

It's very specific. The final son of perdition placing himself in the church. That's the only holy place called the holy place (naos) after the tearing of the veil. And New Jerusalem is the only city Revelation calls the holy city.

It's very specific.

 

[tranquil]

You went off the rails here, and admittedly I didn't read all of the post because you went off the rails so critically here.
The 6th seal aligns with Matthew 24:29. That indicates the end of great tribulation, not the beginning.
Revelation 7:14 also says that the great multitude came out of great tribulation.
and again, they are in bodies, they are not disembodied souls, contrasting with after the 5th seal where they are identified as souls, and they are complaining. Realize that being a disembodied soul is not a natural state for us, and is not what God intended for us to be. Adam was created body first, and then became a living soul. Not soul first and then a body was created after.

So in 1 line you disagreed with Jesus, and inserted your own idea of what great tribulation is rather than believing Jesus on it, and ignored what Revelation 7 actually says.

Revelation 7:14 has a present participle for the Greek word 'coming'. Revelation 7:14 Interlinear: and I have said to him, 'Sir, thou hast known;' and he said to me, 'These are those who are coming out of the great tribulation, and they did wash their robes, and they made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb;
The great multitude is presently coming out of the great tribulation.

It is not a past tense verb, 'came'.

 

[Jamdoc]

It's very specific. The final son of perdition placing himself in the church. That's the only holy place called the holy place (naos) after the tearing of the veil. And New Jerusalem is the only city Revelation calls the holy city.

It's very specific.

"the church" is a very spread out body. That's not specific at all. Which pastor out of the thousands and thousands of local churches should we be watching for?
That's allegorizing and makes it unuseful.

 

[Jamdoc]

Revelation 7:14 has a present participle for the Greek word 'coming'. Revelation 7:14 Interlinear: and I have said to him, 'Sir, thou hast known;' and he said to me, 'These are those who are coming out of the great tribulation, and they did wash their robes, and they made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb;
The great multitude is presently coming out of the great tribulation.

It is not a past tense verb, 'came'.

Doesn't work, because the saints in Revelation 7 are not identified as disembodied souls the way those at the 5th seal are.
We already see what Martyred disembodied souls in heaven look like, that's the 5th seal, not a "great tribulation" that comes after the 6th seal, which again, ignores what Jesus said that the sun and moon darken IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation.
So anything taking place after the sun and moon darken is not tribulation, it's wrath of God.

That's what Jesus said, you're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with Jesus.

 

[Zao is life]

"the church" is a very spread out body. That's not specific at all. Which pastor out of the thousands and thousands of local churches should we be watching for?
That's allegorizing and makes it unuseful.

No it isn't. Just because the details: i.e the name etc have not all been given, does not mean it's not specific or that's it's 'allegorical'. The Bible is saturated with allegory, but it's pretty good at defining what needs defining. Those who have eyes to see will see and understand the apostasy that accompanies the rise of the man of sin, and they will recognize the AoD in the holy place for who he is when the time comes.

You've taken the Bible's definition of the naos (the holy place of the presence of God) and the Revelation's definition of the holy city and turned it into something it isn't, just because you don't believe the Revelation is using metaphor, or it's somehow become illegal for the Bible to use metaphor.