Calling all CONSERVATIVE COMPUTER GEEKS!

[JessB]

I am seeking a moral defense of Microsoft. I've read so much from liberals about how they are evil. I want to read a conservative standpoint on them.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=8970297

 

[rgbivens]

I don't really care one way or the other...I mean look at from the standpoint of a businessman...your goal is to make a good product. So good that people want to buy it. Well...Gates has done that...so well in fact that almost nobody can compete with him. In my opinion he should be aplauded.

-Grant

 

[Niz]

i personally don't see why everyone hates microsoft and such. If you don't like the OS then choose another. Example; Linux, MacOS, etc..

 

[JessB]

rgbivens: But people don't buy (license, really) Microsoft software because it's "good". They seldom have. For most of the history of Microsoft, people have bought (licensed) MS software simply because that's what happens to come with the computer (e.g.: Microsoft BASIC on early '80s computers; MS-DOS on computers in the '80s and into the '90s, then Windows later on). Now, not only is it the thing which happens to come with the computer (not something the consumer chooses), but you pretty much have to run Microsoft software to stay 100% compatible with everyone else's files and programs. Only MS Word can open a MS Word document perfectly. Only MS Access can open MS Access files-- at all. Only Windows can run programs written for Windows.

So it's no longer even an issue of "good". MS software could be total junk, but people would continue to use it because their market share has reached critical mass. There is, quite simply, no way of surviving in business unless you run the same MS software as everyone else.

That is why people buy MS software. Because it is no longer really a "choice". For the majority of businesspeople (and others), it is a "need".

Sure, I can CHOOSE to run Mac OS X, or Debian GNU/Linux, or Gentoo, or FreeBSD, or whatever-- but when a client expects me to work with Windows-only stuff, then what? I either buy MS software or I lose the client.

The only "choice" left in the computer world for most (not all-- but most!) users, programmers and systems admins nowadays is "Run Microsoft software, or lose your job."

 

[awstar]

...

So it's no longer even an issue of "good". MS software could be total junk, but people would continue to use it because their market share has reached critical mass. There is, quite simply, no way of surviving in business unless you run the same MS software as everyone else.

That is why people buy MS software. Because it is no longer really a "choice". For the majority of businesspeople (and others), it is a "need".

Sure, I can CHOOSE to run Mac OS X, or Debian GNU/Linux, or Gentoo, or FreeBSD, or whatever-- but when a client expects me to work with Windows-only stuff, then what? I either buy MS software or I lose the client.

The only "choice" left in the computer world for most (not all-- but most!) users, programmers and systems admins nowadays is "Run Microsoft software, or lose your job."

I can testify to this truth.

Microsoft would try to build the same barriers in the world wide web if they could get away with it. Fortunately most sites stick to open standards, but still some sites make it tough for none Microsoft users to access.

 

[WeakButHopeful]

Well, I'm not a bleeding heart liberal, but many are more conservative than me. But I'd take a historical view. I know when I read books about the history of IBM, or the Internet, or Apple, or 3M, etc. all those companies were trying to make money, but even a conservative can be happy when he sees that some did it while benefiting society and their "stakeholders" (stock holders, employees and customers) in a balanced manner. That same conservative can be dismayed when a company is needlessly arbitrary, obstructionist, disloyal or underhanded. In many cases the truth comes out years later.

 

[rgbivens]

Ok, well then look at it from a non-computer literate person...how many people do you think could run Linux? People that use macs love them and thats great for them if its what works for them...Like Niz said I'm sick of people that bash Microsoft all day because they can't buy a computer off the market without windows on it...well heres some info for you...

IF YOUR SO COMPUTER SAVY WHY DON'T YOU BUILD YOUR OWN COMPUTER AND ISNTALL WHATEVER THE POOP SOFTWARE YOU WANT ON IT?

Who said you had to buy a PC from Dell? I mean honestly...Think about how many people can build a computer...ok, now think about all the people that couldn't...what OS do they use because its EASY? Microsoft Windows. END OF STORY!!! QUITE BASHING MS...

-Grant

 

[firecracker]

if I had to write my own OS i'd be here for years, if I could buy one thats tried, tested and debugged by thousands of developers for $100... end of story. as long as the MS product does what it says on the box and is kept at such low prices, thats fine.

 

[Sadpanda]

Microsoft is rich, because they made a product which was the best at the time, and people stuck with them. They might try and get a strangle hold on the market, but they also spend HUGE amounts of money on free updates to old operating systems, to help the people who can't afford the jump to XP...so I wouldn't say they are totally 'evil'

Linux is hard to use, so most people want to use windows. OSX is for mac..and most people want a PC. That's why people use windows over everything else, and that's why its bundled with off the shelf *cough* overpriced *cough* systems. so far as a system for the every day person, windows is the best OS for them, so microsoft makes money that way. as for MS Office...well...I tend to think it's the best too. We have staroffice at the school I work at so the students can use it at home if they cant afford office, but there is no way I would choose to use it over MS office.

and now..i've forgotten what I was saying probably a good thing, since i've rambled on enough...would have been easier to say "I agree with rgbivens"

 

[xMinionX]

Eh. I've always seen it as a case of "Bash the big guy." I mean, they made a good product, and they have contracts with other companies to install their product on computers to be sold.

Quite frankly, it's not Microsofts responsibility to worry about smaller, more independent operating systems, such as Linux or OS. They are worried about Microsoft. If you're truly concerned with using their product, then you have two options.

Format your HDD and install Linux. It's free, it works passingly well, and some of the versions look pretty. It wont run all the windows programs, but hey, you're the one that had a problem with Microsoft.

Buy a Mac. Use Mac software. Wait four months more than everyone else to buy new software that was released on Windows. Make lots of music and pretty pictures.

"I don't know how to install Linux, or format my harddrive!"

Let me tell you a story. I just bought a motorcycle. I do not like the exhaust on it right now. It looks cruddy, it sounds cruddy, and it's big and heavy. My options were: A) Whine to the manufacterer about how my exhaust sucks, or... B) Bite the bullet, do some reading, try something new, and change the exhaust myself. Guess which one I chose.

Installing Linux would be a lot cheaper, anyway....

 

[rgbivens]

Firecracker Sadpanda, and XMinionX: Thank you!!!

-Grant

 

[Govithoy]

I think it's less of "Microsoft is rampant throughout the market" and more of "Microsoft is rampant throughout the market and knowingly advertises products that are not secure or stable". Has anyone here ever used Windows ME? The highest uptime I ever had on that was 3 weeks, 3 days, and a few hours. No one on IRC would believe me, because it's such a ridiculously unstable, insecure OS. I've had numerous instances in XP where my computer will just minimize a full screen application like Battlefield 1942 (leaving me exposed on Omaha Beach :O). My computer also picked up two toolbars I didn't install, this "CashBack" thing in my tooltray, and a ludicrous amount of spy/adware. I got pop-ups ALL the time in Internet Explorer. Windows 2000 is the only Windows OS I've ever used that I have never had an issue with. The only reason I use XP now is because 2K isn't compatible with my motherboard, and XP is as close of an OS I can get to 2K without actually using 2K. The updates Microsoft puts out are ineffectual and often a long time after a hole in Windows or Internet Explorer is widely known over the internet.

I use Windows because I don't have the luxury to choose anything else. My software of choice isn't compatible with Linux (and I honestly don't know how well I could get around on it) and I'm not going to buy a Mac for over a thousand dollars that will be obselete in three years that I can't even upgrade should I so choose.

Gates, Microsoft, most of its subsidaries, et all get a BIG thumbs-down for poor business ethics.


EDIT: I no longer use Internet Explorer, and my hotmail address remains only for use with MSN Messenger (which, strangely enough, I haven't had any problems with -- go figure). Instead, I now use Mozilla FireFox from mozilla.org and I get no popups from it (some from internet explorer still come along from the embedded spyware) and Google's e-mail, "gmail". I also now have Spybot: Search and Destroy and have eliminated a lot of the spyware on my system, but it's a constant maintanance job.

 

[rgbivens]

EDIT: I no longer use Internet Explorer, and my hotmail address remains only for use with MSN Messenger (which, strangely enough, I haven't had any problems with -- go figure). Instead, I now use Mozilla FireFox from mozilla.org and I get no popups from it (some from internet explorer still come along from the embedded spyware) and Google's e-mail, "gmail". I also now have Spybot: Search and Destroy and have eliminated a lot of the spyware on my system, but it's a constant maintanance job.

I use mozilla too did you notice that it has a built in pop up blocker? ;-) Also the amount of pop ups you get is determined by which sites you go to...

With your issue with ME...did you see how long they put it out? a few months maybe? Yes I admit that ME wasn't as stable as it should have been before putting out but I believe it was a market research to see how people would like a newer GUI.

-Grant

 

[xMinionX]

Has anyone here ever used Windows ME?

Oof. I believe that. But XP giving you trouble? I use XP Pro, and it's never crashed on me once. Every time I have problems with it, I'm usually able to trace it back to something other than the OS.

 

[xMinionX]

Firecracker Sadpanda, and XMinionX: Thank you!!!

-Grant

Imagine that. I'm a big ol' liberal too.

 

[Govithoy]

I use mozilla too did you notice that it has a built in pop up blocker? ;-) Also the amount of pop ups you get is determined by which sites you go to...

With your issue with ME...did you see how long they put it out? a few months maybe? Yes I admit that ME wasn't as stable as it should have been before putting out but I believe it was a market research to see how people would like a newer GUI.

-Grant

Part of my point was that an effective pop-up blocker should be part of Internet Explorer. The Google toolbar helped a bit, but that's not a Microsoft product. It seems everyone else is trying to fix the problems that are there because of Microsoft's seeming inability to release a secure product in the first place.

Releasing an insecure, unstable OS as market research for a new GUI strikes me as incredibly irresponsible. Well, that's Microsoft for ya!

Minion: The problems I have with XP are more of a security thing rather than stability. It'll do weird stuff occasionally (minmizes programs) but it's very rare that I need to reboot anything from a crash.

 

[JessB]

Rgbivens: What makes you think I buy Dells?

I DO build my own computers, and I DO install Linux on them. However, this is impossible for laptops, where they DO NOT sell "generic laptop parts" which you can assemble into a "generic laptop". There are a few rather obscure ways to get a laptop that doesn't involve either (A) it coming with Windows (which you pay for) or (B) it NOT coming with Windows, but the company that made it has a contract with MS which requires them to pay by the computer sold, so you pay for Windows anyhow-- but they are, ironically (due to laws of supply and demand), often far more expensive than the laptops which come with Windows. So you end up paying more to get less (i.e. a laptop with no OS), merely to avoid giving MS money even indirectly. If I had plenty of money, I would have no qualms with this. But seeing as how I can't even afford a new laptop-- and have to buy used...

The question of Windows vs. Anything-Else ("Anything-Else" including not just Linux but Mac OS X, NetBSD, OpenBSD, BeOS, and things even more obscure) is not a question of technical quality, or of usability, for me-- rather, it is a question of morality. Even if Windows was technically superior to Linux in every way (and it isn't, but it's (that is, Windows is) getting better all the time) I would still not like it. Even if Linux were easier to use than Windows, I wouldn't hate Windows any differently.

Your perspective on the issues and mine will differ quite a bit, since "ease of use" is barely even a consideration for me.

More importantly-- people don't use Windows because it's "easy" any more, they use it because that's what they're used to using. If you take a dozen kids who've never touched computers (hard to find nowadays) and sit half of them down at Macs running Mac OS X, and half of them down at "PCs" running Windows, the Mac kids will learn Mac OS X it just as fast as the "PC" kids learn Windows. If not faster.

On the more personal side of things, I am confronted EVERY SINGLE WEEK by people trying to send me files which will only work correctly under Windows. What am I supposed to do? I am effectively being FORCED-- yes, FORCED-- to run Windows, or lose my ability to make money (and thus EAT).

 

[JessB]

Sadpanda: You're saying that MS-DOS was "the best" operating system available when it came out? That's a load of you-know-what. MS-DOS was considered a "toy" operating system for many years.

 

[JessB]

xMinionX: "Quite frankly, it's not Microsofts responsibility to worry about smaller, more independent operating systems, such as Linux or OS."

What operating system is "OS"? "OS" stands for "operating system" (which is the generic term for that which we are discussing), or for "open source" (which is a phenomenon or a movement-- not a piece of software). What OS is called "OS"?

More importantly, ALL of you guys are completely ignoring the most crucial problem I have. That is: My clients, and my friends, insist upon having me use documents and programs which only really open properly under Windows, using Microsoft software. OpenOffice is not perfect at importing .DOC files, and WINE and CrossOver Office are not perfect (nor nearly so!) at running Windows programs.

So what am I supposed to do? People seem to be ignoring this very real problem.

 

[rgbivens]

xMinionX: "Quite frankly, it's not Microsofts responsibility to worry about smaller, more independent operating systems, such as Linux or OS."

What operating system is "OS"? "OS" stands for "operating system" (which is the generic term for that which we are discussing), or for "open source" (which is a phenomenon or a movement-- not a piece of software). What OS is called "OS"?

If I am understanding him correctly he is talkin' about Macs Example: OS9, OSX (which is OS 10) thats the way they numbered it ;-)

More importantly, ALL of you guys are completely ignoring the most crucial problem I have. That is: My clients, and my friends, insist upon having me use documents and programs which only really open properly under Windows, using Microsoft software. OpenOffice is not perfect at importing .DOC files, and WINE and CrossOver Office are not perfect (nor nearly so!) at running Windows programs.

So what am I supposed to do? People seem to be ignoring this very real problem.

How about dual booting? That way ya can have Linux as your main OS but still be able to boot windows...I myself have Windows XP, Windows 98, RedHat Linux, and Mandrake Linus on my PC...Is that a good enough solution for you?

-Grant