Byzantine or Alexandrian

[DeaconDean]

Thanks Deacon , I will study this later on.
I lost a very good friend Saturday and my mind is not clear.

Condolences brother.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I will study this later on.

Let me give you something else to think on.

"And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God." -Mk. 11:22 (KJV)

Common rendering nearly all agree on.

But..you knew this was coming.

That verse tells us (them) to have the same "kind" of faith as God!

"καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς λέγει αὐτοῖς, Ἔχετε πίστιν θεοῦ,"

Three key words here: " Ἔχετε πίστιν"

The first word tells us to "have". The second word "faith" is in the accusative case which tells of also what "kind" of faith to have. "the faith"!

"Theo", the last word, (God) is in the genitive. If you want to get really picky, its in the "Possessive Genitive". Meaning: "of God".

Jesus said here, to "have the faith of God!" faith "in" God, rather, have the same "kind" of faith as God!

"Have the faith of God!"

Think on that Brother.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[TCassidy]

Wow! Talk about missing the point! Having the faith of God is simply a way of saying "Have the faith that God gives to us" (I.E. it is "of" God, or "from" God).

Faith is a gift from God. It is not something we work up in and of ourselves.

And God does not have faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for (God does not hope, He already knows) and the evidence of things not seen (God sees all - there is nothing hidden from or unseen by God).

 

[now faith]

Let me give you something else to think on.

"And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God." -Mk. 11:22 (KJV)

Common rendering nearly all agree on.

But..you knew this was coming.

That verse tells us (them) to have the same "kind" of faith as God!

"καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς λέγει αὐτοῖς, Ἔχετε πίστιν θεοῦ,"

Three key words here: " Ἔχετε πίστιν"

The first word tells us to "have". The second word "faith" is in the accusative case which tells of also what "kind" of faith to have. "the faith"!

"Theo", the last word, (God) is in the genitive. If you want to get really picky, its in the "Possessive Genitive". Meaning: "of God".

Jesus said here, to "have the faith of God!" faith "in" God, rather, have the same "kind" of faith as God!

"Have the faith of God!"

Think on that Brother.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Yes ,this is a fundemental introduction by Word of Faith Preachers.
Mark Chapter 11 is the golden text that is taught on often.
The translation being changed, would have been too bold of statement.
It puts us as having a measure of God's ability.
It really does not matter if all Faith comes from God, the promises in Christ teaching are too much for some to comprehend.
Consider Science and the concept of antimatter , some thought it would if introduced with matter would cause a massive explosion.
Now they believe it can open portals to the underworld.
CERN is trying.
Christ compared a tiny seed of Faith to be so powerfull a mountain could be hurled into the sea.
That is the God kind of Faith.
Personally I do not believe a sinner has this faith.
But that's another topic.
I agree with you Sir , are there any other translations that state Have the God kind of faith?

 

[now faith]

Wow! Talk about missing the point! Having the faith of God is simply a way of saying "Have the faith that God gives to us" (I.E. it is "of" God, or "from" God).

Faith is a gift from God. It is not something we work up in and of ourselves.

And God does not have faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for (God does not hope, He already knows) and the evidence of things not seen (God sees all - there is nothing hidden from or unseen by God).

Hebrews 11: 1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 3. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Jesus Christ was and is God.
He used His Faith in God to raise the dead , feed 5000, and cast out demons.
If God has no Faith then the King James got it right despite the Greek translation.

With your knowledge of Greek , is the correct translation Have the Faith of .God

Nowhere else in the New Testament does the Greek structure a sentence such as this.
Ἔχετε πίστιν θεοῦ/ θεοῦ is the objective genitive.

 

[TCassidy]

You missed the point. It is not the Greek that is problematic. It is not knowing what "of" means.

 

[now faith]

You missed the point. It is not the Greek that is problematic. It is not knowing what "of" means.

I see your point, you are saying of is synonymous with from.
In order to understand what Christ who is God was saying, in laymens terms we have to choose.

Was Christ saying Have Faith in me?

Does our Lord tell us to ask God to give us this Faith?
After the statement he said:

Mark 11: 23. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

Upon saying Have the Faith of God, it must have been assumed that one must first ask God for Faith then Ask God to answer Prayer of moving mountians.
The qualifier for answered prayer is forgiveness in the next verse.
So Christ promised answered prayer ,and we presume He wanted us to ask for God's faith.
That would be automatically given by God to have Mountain moving faith.
We are not as far apart as we might think.

 

[DeaconDean]

I see your point, you are saying of is synonymous with from.
In order to understand what Christ who is God was saying, in laymens terms we have to choose.

Was Christ saying Have Faith in me?

Does our Lord tell us to ask God to give us this Faith?
After the statement he said:

Mark 11: 23. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

Upon saying Have the Faith of God, it must have been assumed that one must first ask God for Faith then Ask God to answer Prayer of moving mountians.
The qualifier for answered prayer is forgiveness in the next verse.
So Christ promised answered prayer ,and we presume He wanted us to ask for God's faith.
That would be automatically given by God to have Mountain moving faith.
We are not as far apart as we might think.

Never said we were. We agree more times than disagree.

We do have "faith". And the "kind" of faith we have is "saving faith".

But why don't we raise the dead? Why don't we tell mountains to move?

We simply do not "Have the "faith" of God".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[OzSpen]

Let me give you something else to think on.

"And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God." -Mk. 11:22 (KJV)

Common rendering nearly all agree on.

But..you knew this was coming.

That verse tells us (them) to have the same "kind" of faith as God!

"καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς λέγει αὐτοῖς, Ἔχετε πίστιν θεοῦ,"

Three key words here: " Ἔχετε πίστιν"

The first word tells us to "have". The second word "faith" is in the accusative case which tells of also what "kind" of faith to have. "the faith"!

"Theo", the last word, (God) is in the genitive. If you want to get really picky, its in the "Possessive Genitive". Meaning: "of God".

Jesus said here, to "have the faith of God!" faith "in" God, rather, have the same "kind" of faith as God!

"Have the faith of God!"

Think on that Brother.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Dean,

Ἔχετε πίστιν θεοῦ,"

There is no definite article with pistin.

Oz

 

[DeaconDean]

Dean,

Ἔχετε πίστιν θεοῦ,"

There is no definite article with pistin.

Oz

Unless everything I know, every book I have, every lexicon is wrong, isn't "pistin" in the accusative? And although it does not have a "definite article" isn't "the" understood?

"the faith"

And isn't theo in the genitive, which also means "in God" is an incorrect rendering. "of God" would be correct.

"Have the faith of God" would be a correct rendering of Mk. 11:22.

And, as always, doesn't context count for anything?

Look at the events, and to whom Jesus was talking to.

"And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith." -Mk. 11:20-23 (KJV)

Jesus was instructing them to have the same "kind" of faith that He has, and God has.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[OzSpen]

Unless everything I know, every book I have, every lexicon is wrong, isn't "pistin" in the accusative? And although it does not have a "definite article" isn't "the" understood?

"the faith"

And isn't theo in the genitive, which also means "in God" is an incorrect rendering. "of God" would be correct.

"Have the faith of God" would be a correct rendering of Mk. 11:22.

And, as always, doesn't context count for anything?

Dean,

I don't appreciate your attempt here to put me down. I'm not a novice when it comes to the NT Greek language.

The only lexicon I have that parses Greek words is an Analytical Lexicon. Regular lexicons such as BDAG & Thayer give the meanings of words.

pistin (faith) is in the accusative case because it is the object of the verb, echete.

You stated: '"Have the faith of God" would be a correct rendering of Mk. 11:22'. That's not exactly true as the Greek states: Eχετε πίστιν θεοῦ, i.e. Echete pistin theou. Literally it states: 'Have a faith of a god', because there is no definite article, ton, associated with pistin and there is no definite article tou associated with theou.

However, we know from context that Jesus was referring to THE God who, through Jesus, withered the fig tree. It is by inference that we reach a translation like that of the ESV, 'Have faith in God' (Mark 11:22).

All translations I checked in Biblegateway translated as the ESV, except Young's Literal Translation which reads, 'Have faith of God'.and That's the most literally accurate when compared with the Greek. Douay-Rheims (1899) translates as, 'Have the faith of God', but using this sentence to mean,

'have the sort of faith God has' - is surely a monstrosity of exegesis. For the genitive after pistis cf. Acts 3:16; Rom 3:22,26; Gal 2:16 (twice); 3:22; Eph 3:12; Phil 1:27; 3:9; Col 2:12; 2 Thess 2:13; Rev 14:12 (Cranfield 1959:361).​

I find the ESV and all other major translations for Mark 11:22 to be an unusual translation as the preposition ev is not used. Instead we have the genitive / possessive case of theou (of God) and there are no definite articles, 'the', before each noun. However, Cranfield's explanation justifies why 'in' is inserted to make sense of the sentence.

Jonathan Robie explains there are four possible translations of the sentence:

> Have God's faith -- The Bible in Basic English
> Have the kind of trust that comes from God -- The Jewish New Testament
> Have God's faith -- Numeric English New Testament
> Take hold on God's faithfulness -- Montgomery New Testament (source).

Robie also points out that pistis often means 'trust' and that we need to trust in God. The idea that 'faith can be measured by the degree of extraordinary claims we are willing to believe, etc. I don't see this is a Biblical teaching' (Robie).

There certainly are challenges of exegesis when examining the NT Greek.

Blessings,

Oz

Works consulted

Cranfield, C E B 1959. The Gospel According to Saint Mark (The Cambridge Greek Testament Commentary). C F D Moule (gen ed). London: Cambridge University Press.

 

[DeaconDean]

You stated: '"Have the faith of God" would be a correct rendering of Mk. 11:22'. That's not exactly true as the Greek states: Eχετε πίστιν θεοῦ, i.e. Echete pistin theou. Literally it states: 'Have a faith of a god', because there is no definite article, ton, associated with pistin and there is no definite article tou associated with theou.

Do you realize that you just gave evidence to support JW's belief in 3 separate god's?

While I appreciate you input, I'm going to go with what I know.

I was taught my a professor with a Phd in Greek.

"b. Possessive Genitives
To an English-speaking student, this is likely the most familiar function of a genitive, since our English "possessive" case corresponds directly to the genitive case. However, the Greek genitive case is really more about "generating" than just possessing. Only in this category is the genitive a substantive indicating who or what owns, possesses or holds decision-making authority (in the way that an owner does) over the head noun. But Wallace warns that, "A genitive should not be labeled possessive unless this is the narrowest sense it can have."

So key words like "owned by," "possessed by," or "belonging to" should be able to be inserted before the translation of the genitive, and fit in well. Of course, these key words need not be used in the actual translation. Most often one should use a possessive form with an apostrophe ("God's people") or the preposition "of" ("the people of God"). But the key words should make sense if they were to be used, and get across the main idea implied by the genitive ("the people owned by God")."

Source

Noted Greek scholar A.T. Robertson, in his book "A New Short Grammar of the Greek New Testament" says:

"But in "Ἔχετε πίστιν θεοῦ," (Mk. 11:22)...In itself, the case means only the God-kind of faith".

Its also stated that way in several version:

“And Jesus answering saith to them, ‘Have faith of God” (Young’s Literal Translation)

“And Jesus answering, saith to them: Have the faith of God.” (Douay Rheims Bible)

And Jesus, answering, saith unto them, “Have the faith of God.” (Worrell New Testament)

“And Jesus, answering, said to them, Have God’s faith.” (The Bible In Basic English)

“He responded, “Have the kind of trust that comes from God!” (The Jewish New Testament by David Stern)

In Albert Barnes’ notes about this verse we read:

Verse 22. Have faith in God. Literally, “Have the faith of God.” This may mean, Have strong faith. or have confidence in God; a strong belief that he is able to accomplish things that appear most difficult with infinite ease, as the fig-tree was made to wither away by a word. {2} “Have faith in God” or, “Have the faith of God”

As much as I don't like Adam Clarke, his comments are:

“Have faith in God – Εχετε πιϚιν θεου is a mere Hebraism: have the faith of God, i.e. have strong faith, or the strongest faith, for thus the Hebrews expressed the superlative degree; so the mountains of God mean exceeding great mountains – the hail of God, exceeding great hail, etc.”

W. B. Godbey’s comments:

“And Jesus, responding, says to him, have the faith of God.” There is a difference between faith in God and the “faith of God,” the latter being a perfect faith, admitting no admixture of doubt. In justification, we have faith in God; while entire sanctification, eliminating all doubt and every other phase of depravity, is characterized by the “faith of God.” Here, Jesus imputes wonderful efficiency to the faith of God.”

John Gill comments saying:

"have faith in God;
or "the faith of God", so the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, Persic, and Ethiopic versions; that is, exercise, and make use of that faith which has God for its author, which is the work of God, and of his operation, a free grace gift of his; and which has God for its object; and is supported by his power, and encouraged by his goodness, truth, and faithfulness: and so the Arabic version renders it, "believe in God"; not only that such things may be done, as the drying up a fig tree, but those that are much greater."

While I think we all would agree that we have "saving faith", I personally have not seen anyone exercising a "God-kind" of faith, raising the dead, healing all infirmities, commanding mountains to move, etc.

I think I'll take his word over yours.

And again, context don't mean a thing to you does it?

The disciples saw the withered tree and asked about it.

Jesus had told them He couldn't do nothing other than what He seen God do, and no other than that.

SO Jesus was instructing them that if they had the same kind of faith as God, they could command mountains to move and they would move.

Like I said, that verse was one in particular that was pint in class.

While I do appreciate your input, I'll take the Phd's word and all my Greek bibles and lexicons, and thr TDNT over your opinion.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[OzSpen]

Do you realize that you just gave evidence to support JW's belief in 3 separate god's?

While I appreciate you input, I'm going to go with what I know.

I was taught my a professor with a Phd in Greek.

"b. Possessive Genitives
To an English-speaking student, this is likely the most familiar function of a genitive, since our English "possessive" case corresponds directly to the genitive case. However, the Greek genitive case is really more about "generating" than just possessing. Only in this category is the genitive a substantive indicating who or what owns, possesses or holds decision-making authority (in the way that an owner does) over the head noun. But Wallace warns that, "A genitive should not be labeled possessive unless this is the narrowest sense it can have."

So key words like "owned by," "possessed by," or "belonging to" should be able to be inserted before the translation of the genitive, and fit in well. Of course, these key words need not be used in the actual translation. Most often one should use a possessive form with an apostrophe ("God's people") or the preposition "of" ("the people of God"). But the key words should make sense if they were to be used, and get across the main idea implied by the genitive ("the people owned by God")."

Source

Noted Greek scholar A.T. Robertson, in his book "A New Short Grammar of the Greek New Testament" says:

"But in "Ἔχετε πίστιν θεοῦ," (Mk. 11:22)...In itself, the case means only the God-kind of faith".

Its also stated that way in several version:

“And Jesus answering saith to them, ‘Have faith of God” (Young’s Literal Translation)

“And Jesus answering, saith to them: Have the faith of God.” (Douay Rheims Bible)

And Jesus, answering, saith unto them, “Have the faith of God.” (Worrell New Testament)

“And Jesus, answering, said to them, Have God’s faith.” (The Bible In Basic English)

“He responded, “Have the kind of trust that comes from God!” (The Jewish New Testament by David Stern)

In Albert Barnes’ notes about this verse we read:

Verse 22. Have faith in God. Literally, “Have the faith of God.” This may mean, Have strong faith. or have confidence in God; a strong belief that he is able to accomplish things that appear most difficult with infinite ease, as the fig-tree was made to wither away by a word. {2} “Have faith in God” or, “Have the faith of God”

As much as I don't like Adam Clarke, his comments are:

“Have faith in God – Εχετε πιϚιν θεου is a mere Hebraism: have the faith of God, i.e. have strong faith, or the strongest faith, for thus the Hebrews expressed the superlative degree; so the mountains of God mean exceeding great mountains – the hail of God, exceeding great hail, etc.”

W. B. Godbey’s comments:

“And Jesus, responding, says to him, have the faith of God.” There is a difference between faith in God and the “faith of God,” the latter being a perfect faith, admitting no admixture of doubt. In justification, we have faith in God; while entire sanctification, eliminating all doubt and every other phase of depravity, is characterized by the “faith of God.” Here, Jesus imputes wonderful efficiency to the faith of God.”

John Gill comments saying:

"have faith in God;
or "the faith of God", so the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, Persic, and Ethiopic versions; that is, exercise, and make use of that faith which has God for its author, which is the work of God, and of his operation, a free grace gift of his; and which has God for its object; and is supported by his power, and encouraged by his goodness, truth, and faithfulness: and so the Arabic version renders it, "believe in God"; not only that such things may be done, as the drying up a fig tree, but those that are much greater."

While I think we all would agree that we have "saving faith", I personally have not seen anyone exercising a "God-kind" of faith, raising the dead, healing all infirmities, commanding mountains to move, etc.

I think I'll take his word over yours.

And again, context don't mean a thing to you does it?

The disciples saw the withered tree and asked about it.

Jesus had told them He couldn't do nothing other than what He seen God do, and no other than that.

SO Jesus was instructing them that if they had the same kind of faith as God, they could command mountains to move and they would move.

Like I said, that verse was one in particular that was pint in class.

While I do appreciate your input, I'll take the Phd's word and all my Greek bibles and lexicons, and thr TDNT over your opinion.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Dean,

Here you committed the Appeal to Authority logical fallacy.

Oz

 

[DeaconDean]

Dean,

Here you committed the Appeal to Authority logical fallacy.

Oz

My statement to you was in reference to:

Literally it states: 'Have a faith of a god', because there is no definite article, ton, associated with pistin and there is no definite article tou associated with theou.

The JW's do not accept a "Trinitarian" view because of John 1:1.

Your statement above, agrees with JW thinking: "have a faith of a god"

Again, I'll stay with what I know and was taught.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[TCassidy]

The JW's do not accept a "Trinitarian" view because of John 1:1.

Your statement above, agrees with JW thinking: "have a faith of a god"

No, his statement does not agree with the JWs. The JWs error is not in the presence or lack of an article. The JW's error is that they failed to understand the importance of the emphatic position of the final θεος.

The verse reads, John 1:1 ᾿Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word."

Notice the last clause where "God" is first in the clause which places it in the emphatic position.

A similar meaning can be found in English.

"The coffee is hot." Simple declarative statement.

"HOT coffee!" An emphatic statement.

John 1:1 says, in effect, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was most emphatically God!"

The presence or lack of the article has nothing to do with it.

 

[OzSpen]

My statement to you was in reference to:



The JW's do not accept a "Trinitarian" view because of John 1:1.

Your statement above, agrees with JW thinking: "have a faith of a god"

Again, I'll stay with what I know and was taught.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Dean,

You have cherry picked a sentence I wrote and made it mean what I did not state. This is what I stated in context:

You stated: '"Have the faith of God" would be a correct rendering of Mk. 11:22'. That's not exactly true as the Greek states: Eχετε πίστιν θεοῦ, i.e. Echete pistin theou. Literally it states: 'Have a faith of a god', because there is no definite article, ton, associated with pistin and there is no definite article tou associated with theou.

However, we know from context that Jesus was referring to THE God who, through Jesus, withered the fig tree. It is by inference that we reach a translation like that of the ESV, 'Have faith in God' (Mark 11:22).

All translations I checked in Biblegateway translated as the ESV, except Young's Literal Translation which reads, 'Have faith of God'.and That's the most literally accurate when compared with the Greek. Douay-Rheims (1899) translates as, 'Have the faith of God', but using this sentence to mean,

'have the sort of faith God has' - is surely a monstrosity of exegesis. For the genitive after pistis cf. Acts 3:16; Rom 3:22,26; Gal 2:16 (twice); 3:22; Eph 3:12; Phil 1:27; 3:9; Col 2:12; 2 Thess 2:13; Rev 14:12 (Cranfield 1959:361) [OzSpen#91].​

In context, I included C E B Cranfield's exegesis: "'have the sort of faith God has' - is surely a monstrosity of exegesis". You have forced on me a meaning I did not state. I simply pointed out the literal statement of that sentence in Mark 11:22.

For you to suggest what I stated 'agrees with JW thinking: "have a faith of a god"' is audacious.

Mark 11:22 uses the verb, 'have'. John 1:1 uses the verb to be, 'was'. The JWs violate Colwell's Rule when determining the predicate nominative in association with the verb, to be in NT Greek.

You don't seem to want to deal with the fact that in #92 you closed down reasonable discussion by your use of the Appeal to Authority logical fallacy.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

No, his statement does not agree with the JWs. The JWs error is not in the presence or lack of an article. The JW's error is that they failed to understand the importance of the emphatic position of the final θεος.

The verse reads, John 1:1 ᾿Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word."

Notice the last clause where "God" is first in the clause which places it in the emphatic position.

A similar meaning can be found in English.

"The coffee is hot." Simple declarative statement.

"HOT coffee!" An emphatic statement.

John 1:1 says, in effect, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was most emphatically God!"

The presence or lack of the article has nothing to do with it.

TC,

The lack of the article DOES have something to do with the translation. In association with the verb, 'to be', it is easy enough to know which is the predicate nominative in an English sentence because our language depends on word order.

Since Greek nouns, pronouns, adjectives and verbs depend on word endings (declensions and conjugations), how do we determine if theos is subject or complement (predicate nominative) of the sentence. In the John 1:1 passage, one has no definite article (theos) and the other has a definite article (ho logos).

This is explained in Colwell's Rule. Generally, the noun that drops the definite article (e.g. theos) is the predicate nominative and the one with the definite article (ho logos) is the subject. The NWT has violated this Greek rule of grammar with its translation, 'the Word was a god'.

So the function of theos in the clause is as a predicate nominative, but you are correct in stating that when theos is placed at the beginning of the clause it emphasises 'most emphatically God' or 'God indeed'.

Oz

 

[TCassidy]

Yes, I know. I greatly simplified it for the benefit of those who did not take 8 semesters of Greek.

 

[DeaconDean]

One other point Ozpen,

I'm almost sure you have Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.

Check out Vol IX, page 206.

It agrees with me.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[OzSpen]

One other point Ozpen,

I'm almost sure you have Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.

Check out Vol IX, page 206.

It agrees with me.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Dean,

Quote it to prove your point.

By the way, his name is spelled Kittel.

Oz