Bye Bye Ape Man!!!

[Nathan Poe]

Drive people away from Christianity? So, let me guess... if I posted about flowers bending in the breeze and how much I love you, you would become a Christian, right?

Couldn't do any worse than the current approach.

 

[Tomk80]

You do know you haven't "won" by getting us to say we don't know how the universe began, don't you? Please, for the love of your god, familiarize yourself with God of the Gaps.


Where were we "uncomfortable"? All of us, if I remember correctly, that replied to your question about the origins of the universe freely admitted that nobody knows where it came from. Goddidit, unfortunately for you, is not a valid explanation.

Why exactly do you persist in falsely claiming it makes us uncomfortable?

Because not knowing makes him uncomfortable. That is why he makes stuff up, like 'goddidit', so he can pretend that he knows. And because he is uncomfortable with not knowing, he thinks that we are also.

 

[monkeypsycho62]

That was a humorous read. Every "theory" cant explain the absolute beginning. The universe is a like a bubble that is created in boiling water, first being zero radius.... yeah, and so where did the boiling water come from? With every "theory" given, it just creates another question... so where did that come from?

A guy told me the other day that he believed the "Big Bang" so I asked him what exploded? He didnt know. Of course not. Something had to explode. He then said his teacher told him that it started with one tiny speck that started rotating faster and faster. Cool... so where did the speck come from?

So where did the original matter come from?

Where did God come from?

 

[monkeypsycho62]

That's a good analogy.

I suppose the Biblical Literalist's way of doing it would be to simply state that the price is $34.98 and insist that it is $34.98 even if the price is factually shown to be $76.05. You can show them the price tag, ring it up and show them the readout on the machine, show them the receipt, even ask the store manager about it. No amount of evidence will sway them from thinking the price is $34.98.

But a piece of paper that they found on the ground a few days before going shopping had something scribbled on it that kinda looked like "349."

The eight was added later by people who attempted to translate the paper..

 

[monkeypsycho62]

So.... are you saying God might exist?

Yes. See "Flying Spaghetti Monster." His noodliness could exist. Any proof for this? Nope. Just some testimony.

 

[monkeypsycho62]

I thought I had made my last post here... but that was before I was stalked. Obviously, your level of uncomfortability is much more than even I estimated. So much so that some of you felt it necessary to come running after me by sending private messages yelling at me that I'm ignorant and that God doesnt exist. Me thinks thou dost protest too much.

Since you guys were so compelled to stalk me, I thought I would look in just to see if what I thought would happen did in fact happen. The answer is 'yes', as you have all started congratulating one another and patting each other on the back. Smiling and saying, "Boy we showed him!". I guess it helps to ease that uncomfortable feeling - the "pack mentality" where you can grunt together and beat your chests and try to forget, at least for a moment, that you could very well be in eternal danger.

Feel better now? Dont worry, it wont last. That gnawing feeling will come back. When you are alone. Maybe lying in your bed at night. Just remember, if you ever try to earnestly search for Him, you will find Him.

You missed the post where a fellow Christian said you made Christianity look bad.

Ouch.

NOTE: People really need to post faster...... Quadruple post ftw!
Is that allowed here? All I did was read the thread and reply to things as I saw them.

 

[TheGnome]

Thanks for making my point. It's usually people that have nothing to add to a discussion that resort to name calling and flaming. I have found that it is the typically response from an atheist when they get backed into a corner and have to admit that they have absolutely no natural explanation for the beginning of the universe. It exposes the achilles heel, and makes them uncomfortable, so they resort to lashing out. Your post is an excellent 'Exhibit A'. Thank you.

I told you that you were treading on the grounds of idiocy, and that I will soon discover if you're an idiot. I'm still waiting for you to show me why my analogy was a poor one. You completely ignored that, but you expended energy by telling me that I'm wrong without explaining to me why I'm wrong.

I don't understand why you're so fixated over our accusations of your ignorance. If this bothers you, show us that you aren't ignorant. Present to us your understanding of evolution, and point out to us the various major flaws you see that it has. We will give you a counterpoint for you to argue against, and perhaps some learning from both sides can be accomplished. I don't see what you're trying to accomplish by trying to force an answer out of us as to what was before or caused the big bang. Science isn't like religion, the answers must be discovered, and therefore not everything that needs to be known is known. Can't you get it through your head that we do not practice the religion of Science? Are you really that dense?

 

[nvxplorer]

That gnawing feeling will come back. When you are alone. Maybe lying in your bed at night.

What gnawing feeling? What makes you think any of us lie in bed alone?

 

[MoonLancer]

What gnawing feeling? What makes you think any of us lie in bed alone?

I like it when they gnaw. careful i bite back.

 

[monkeypsycho62]

What gnawing feeling?

gnawed.com

There it is! Although those members (which includes me) are "gnawed" about religion

 

[Loudmouth]

Thanks for making my point. It's usually people that have nothing to add to a discussion that resort to name calling and flaming. I have found that it is the typically response from an atheist when they get backed into a corner and have to admit that they have absolutely no natural explanation for the beginning of the universe. It exposes the achilles heel, and makes them uncomfortable, so they resort to lashing out. Your post is an excellent 'Exhibit A'. Thank you.

I would rather not know and search for an answer than be forced to believe in something without evidence. I would also rather be wrong and shown to be wrong then believe in something that is wrong and refuse to admit it. I would rather not know then accept "Goddidit" and quit looking.

The sad thing is that your God disappears as quickly as scientists fill in gaps in our knowledge. You are telling us that the best place to see your God is through ignorance. Personally, that doesn't seem like a very good way to find a powerful creator.

 

[DMagoh]

I don't know...

I don't know...

You can keep on asking "where did that come from" until you're blue in the face... All it means is that there comes a point where we can't say for certain.

We don't know...I haven't the slightest idea...

We simply don't know how the universe started. Period...

science has been wrong (and is wrong, and will be wrong)...

We keep telling you: we don't know...

As we've said, we don't know. We admit it...

What came "before" the big bang is unknown to science.

In all seriousness, the answer is still "we don't know for sure"...

Don't know.

Don't Know = Don't Know....Don't know is answer.

The only question you posed that we didn't answer was about where the original matter/energy came from that eventually formed the universe as we know it. We've repeatedly told you that we don't know....

Your questions, save for the one mentioned above, were answered. The one question we didn't answer wasn't answered because nobody knows yet.

Where did the original matter/energy in the universe come from? You don't know. Not only do you not know, you dont even have a clue. Not even a hint. Nothing. Nada. Naught. Null. Zero. Zilch.

You know why? Because according to the natural laws of science, something can't appear from nothing. That only leaves the supernatural. You dont want to face that fact. It makes you uncomfortable. But it's obvious. Your own natural laws point to the obvious fact that the universal began supernaturally.

The original matter/energy had to come from somewhere. For it to have just "popped up", it would have to be supernatural. All this time, you have been trying to "measure energy with a yardstick". You are trying to measure and test the supernatural with natural laws. It isnt going to happen. It is an impossible quandary. You refuse to believe in the supernatural, because the natural cannot measure it. But if, for the sake of argument, there is the supernatural, natural would not be able to measure it. You are in a catch-22 unless you give up the facade that that only thing that can exist are things that can be explained by the finite human mind. That is the ultimate arrogance, to think that if the finite human mind cannot comprehend something, it cannot exist. Especially when your own natural laws point to the obvious fact that the universal began supernaturally.

 

[OdwinOddball]

Where did the original matter/energy in the universe come from? You don't know. Not only do you not know, you dont even have a clue. Not even a hint. Nothing. Nada. Naught. Null. Zero. Zilch.

You know why? Because according to the natural laws of science, something can't appear from nothing. That only leaves the supernatural. You dont want to face that fact. It makes you uncomfortable. But it's obvious. Your own natural laws point to the obvious fact that the universal began supernaturally.

The original matter/energy had to come from somewhere. For it to have just "popped up", it would have to be supernatural. All this time, you have been trying to "measure energy with a yardstick". You are trying to measure and test the supernatural with natural laws. It isnt going to happen. It is an impossible quandary. You refuse to believe in the supernatural, because the natural cannot measure it. But if, for the sake of argument, there is the supernatural, natural would not be able to measure it. You are in a catch-22 unless you give up the facade that that only thing that can exist are things that can be explained by the finite human mind. That is the ultimate arrogance, to think that if the finite human mind cannot comprehend something, it cannot exist. Especially when your own natural laws point to the obvious fact that the universal began supernaturally.

No, it means very simply we don't know. You can be arrogant and presumptive all you want, and try to shoehorn the supernatural into it, but only one of the above is an honest assessment of the situation. Until there is evidence to suggest that the supernatural is involved, there is no reason to add it.

At one point, "We don't know" was the only logical answer anyone could give as to why the sun shines, or what caused lightening, but today the answers to these questions are what are allowing us to have this conversation. Science is a continual process, if we had all the answers, we would in essence be no different than what you label god.

 

[Logic_Fault]

Where did the original matter/energy in the universe come from? You don't know. Not only do you not know, you dont even have a clue. Not even a hint. Nothing. Nada. Naught. Null. Zero. Zilch.

Yes. Precisely. Well, almost. There are some ideas. You were closer than you have been so far though. Someone, give this man a cookie!

You know why? Because according to the natural laws of science, something can't appear from nothing.

Quantum physics would disagree with you. As far as I understand it, a phenomenon known as the quantum fluctuation of the vacuum allows for energy to be produced from, essentially, "nothing."

This has been experimentally confirmed, as far as I'm aware, and seems to be responsible for black hole radiation.

That only leaves the supernatural. You dont want to face that fact. It makes you uncomfortable. But it's obvious.

No, it doesn't make us "uncomfortable." We've all told you, we don't know where the matter/energy came from. There are a few ideas but nothing solid.

You keep holding on to that God of the Gaps fallacyhttp://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_Gaps though.

Your own natural laws point to the obvious fact that the universal began supernaturally.

Not quite. If something "supernatural" did exist it is, by definition, outside of the natural realm and as such probably couldn't interact with anything here in order to create anything at all.

The original matter/energy had to come from somewhere. For it to have just "popped up", it would have to be supernatural.

Well, Einstein did call quantum physics "spooky."

All this time, you have been trying to "measure energy with a yardstick". You are trying to measure and test the supernatural with natural laws.

Because that's all we have. What should we use, a ghostometer?

It isnt going to happen. It is an impossible quandary. You refuse to believe in the supernatural, because the natural cannot measure it.

Yeah, how about that. It would appear, for all intents and purposes, like the supernatural doesn't even exist at all. Isn't that something?

But if, for the sake of argument, there is the supernatural, natural would not be able to measure it.

Nor would the supernatural be able to interact with us. You've just neutered your argument.

You are in a catch-22 unless you give up the facade that that only thing that can exist are things that can be explained by the finite human mind. That is the ultimate arrogance, to think that if the finite human mind cannot comprehend something, it cannot exist.

Nobody's saying that. There are many things that are incomprehensible. The interior of black holes is, at the moment, almost entirely incomprehensible to science but they don't cease to exist because of it.

Especially when your own natural laws point to the obvious fact that the universal began supernaturally.

No, they don't. You're really getting your money's worth out of that God of the Gapshttp://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_Gaps, aren't you?

 

[Loudmouth]

You know why? Because according to the natural laws of science, something can't appear from nothing. That only leaves the supernatural.

What supernatural? Evidence please.

You dont want to face that fact. It makes you uncomfortable.

Not knowing the process that started our universe actually excites me. It is a very large and grand question that begs and answer. Anwering that question is the holy grail of science, and every day we are getting a little closer to answering that question. For example, the Large Hadron Collider (the largest scientific instrument ever constructed) will be firing up in the near future. It may very well give us more clues on how universes start.

The sad thing for you is that as science progresses your God starts to disappear. The more you push your God into gaps in our knowledge the faster he will disappear as we discover more about the natural world. It is actually you that is uncomfortable, not us.

But it's obvious. Your own natural laws point to the obvious fact that the universal began supernaturally.

How so?

The original matter/energy had to come from somewhere. For it to have just "popped up", it would have to be supernatural.

Why? You are right, it had to come from somewhere, but why the supernatural?

All this time, you have been trying to "measure energy with a yardstick". You are trying to measure and test the supernatural with natural laws. It isnt going to happen.

What supernatural? Please provide evidence.

You refuse to believe in the supernatural, because the natural cannot measure it.

I refuse to believe in the supernatural because it can not be evidenced. The same goes for the Easter Bunny and Leprechuans.

What evidence do you base your belief in the supernatural on?

You are in a catch-22 unless you give up the facade that that only thing that can exist are things that can be explained by the finite human mind.

Says the person with a finite mind. Say the biblical authors who have a finite mind, as do their followers who also had finite minds.

That is the ultimate arrogance, to think that if the finite human mind cannot comprehend something, it cannot exist.

The ultimate arrogance is pretending that something exists because you really, really, really believe it exists. Sorry, but reality does not bend to your wishes.

 

[Brennin]

Where did God come from?

God is self-existent.

 

[mpok1519]

DMagoh doesn't know much about biology, so I wouldn't take anything he says as much more than a self-righteous spatter.

Christianity has no place for lies.

 

[Skaloop]

God is self-existent.

A logical impossibility.

 

[Brennin]

Nature 437:69-87 (Sep 2005)

Thanks. I got it.

 

[Brennin]

A logical impossibility.

Not in this reality.