but.. are they Christian?

[ChristsSoldier115]

I recall Obama's saying in the latest news thing about IS/ISIS/ISIL that they were not really muslims. Everytime something on the news has anything on Obama.. I just have to read the comment sections on the article,if any.

I saw comments along the lines of, "Well it doesn't matter what you say they are. They think they're muslim."


What about our extreme branches of Christianity in the vein of ISIS? Are they Christian? They're doing very unchristian things, just like ISIS is doing very un-islamic things.

Please, I request we do not turn this thread into a "well muslims are doing things aligned with their religion!" I wish to discuss the skeletons in our closet. I am just using Islam as an example for comparison as they are making the headlines right now.

 

[abysmul]

I guess if you want to categorize who is Christian and who is not, you need to clearly define "Christian".

"You will know them by their fruits"

 

[James Is Back]

No they're not Christian because of the evil acts they are doing.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

No they're not Christian because of the evil acts they are doing.

See now that is a simple answer. You say they aren't, but all of them say they are.

I can compare the lack of voicing out against these groups that exist with the common complaint of, "Where are all the peaceful muslims speaking out against the radicals?"

We don't hear about them because eventually governments shut them down. Some are still around but never heard of.


I can bet of the hundreds of the "militias" scattered across the united states... a good amount is for their militant brand of a "christian america".. just biding their time to "liberate us" from the "oppressive government." I didn't know such groups existed in america until my friend who was a part of sucha militia quit when she discovered their goal of a ""fighting for a christian america".. she being a stout atheist obviously opposed this.

Examples are:

The Covenant, The Sword, And the Arm of the Lord. A former texas militant group in the 1970's that attempted to use 30 gallons of potassium cynanide to "cleanse the cities of undesirables" They are a white suprematist christian militia.

Lebanon's infamous Phalangist, worked with the IDF in coordination for the wholesale massacre of the Shatilla and Sabra refugee camps.

 

[abysmul]

Ok, so let's say you have your definition all framed up... then you find someone who doesn't fit your definition, and then what?

 

[ViaCrucis]

I don't think it's helpful to play the No True Scotsman card.

Yes, Muslim extremists are Muslims.
Yes, Christian extremists are Christians.

Using the No True Scotsman fallacy is attempting to mitigate undue hostility, diffusing potential radicalized backlash.

That ISIS consists of radical, militant Muslims doesn't make all Muslims radical militants. That is a far more helpful way of saying it, and the whole intent of course in Obama's words is to try and remind the American public--and as the public face of the United States itself--the world that the target is not "Muslims" or "Islam"--but a militant group intent on committing atrocity and suffering in the region.

But no, the No True Scotsman fallacy is still a fallacy. ISIS is composed of Muslims. But that doesn't make what they are doing representative of the global Muslim community. In the same vein that those groups that bomb abortion clinics and murder doctors are made up of Christians, but what they are doing is not representative of the global Christian community.

Fanaticism, under any name, is still fanaticism.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Steeno7]

What about our extreme branches of Christianity in the vein of ISIS? Are they Christian?

What "extreme branches of Christianity in the vein of ISIS" are you referring to?

They're doing very unchristian things, just like ISIS is doing very un-islamic things.

I take it you have never studied Islam and specifically Islamic Sharia law? ISIS's activity is very much in line with their Sharia law. Heres a few snippets for you to consider:

According to the Sharia law:

• Theft is punishable by amputation of the right hand.
• Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Muhammad is a prophet is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Allah, the moon god of Islam is punishable by death.
• A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim man who marries a Muslim woman is punishable by death.
• A man can marry an infant girl and consummate the marriage when she is 9 years old.
• Girls' [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] should be cut (per Muhammad's words in Book 41, Kitab Al-Adab, Hadith 5251).
• A woman can have 1 husband, but a man can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.
• A man can unilaterally divorce his wife but a woman needs her husband's consent to divorce.
• A man can beat his wife for insubordination.
• Testimonies of four male witnesses are required to prove rape against a woman.
• A woman who has been raped cannot testify in court against her rapist(s).
• A woman's testimony in court, allowed only in property cases, carries half the weight of a man's.
• A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits.
• A woman cannot drive a car, as it leads to fitnah (upheaval).
• A woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative.
• Meat to be eaten must come from animals that have been sacrificed to Allah - i.e., be Halal.
• Muslims should engage in Taqiyya and lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam.

The list goes on.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

What "extreme branches of Christianity in the vein of ISIS" are you referring to?



I take it you have never studied Islam and specifically Islamic Sharia law? ISIS's activity is very much in line with their Sharia law. Heres a few snippets for you to consider:

According to the Sharia law:

• Theft is punishable by amputation of the right hand.
• Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Muhammad is a prophet is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Allah, the moon god of Islam is punishable by death.
• A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim man who marries a Muslim woman is punishable by death.
• A man can marry an infant girl and consummate the marriage when she is 9 years old.
• Girls' [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] should be cut (per Muhammad's words in Book 41, Kitab Al-Adab, Hadith 5251).
• A woman can have 1 husband, but a man can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.
• A man can unilaterally divorce his wife but a woman needs her husband's consent to divorce.
• A man can beat his wife for insubordination.
• Testimonies of four male witnesses are required to prove rape against a woman.
• A woman who has been raped cannot testify in court against her rapist(s).
• A woman's testimony in court, allowed only in property cases, carries half the weight of a man's.
• A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits.
• A woman cannot drive a car, as it leads to fitnah (upheaval).
• A woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative.
• Meat to be eaten must come from animals that have been sacrificed to Allah - i.e., be Halal.
• Muslims should engage in Taqiyya and lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam.

The list goes on.

This thread isn't about Islam.

 

[Steeno7]

This thread isn't about Islam.

ROFLOL

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I don't think it's helpful to play the No True Scotsman card.

Yes, Muslim extremists are Muslims.
Yes, Christian extremists are Christians.

Using the No True Scotsman fallacy is attempting to mitigate undue hostility, diffusing potential radicalized backlash.

That ISIS consists of radical, militant Muslims doesn't make all Muslims radical militants. That is a far more helpful way of saying it, and the whole intent of course in Obama's words is to try and remind the American public--and as the public face of the United States itself--the world that the target is not "Muslims" or "Islam"--but a militant group intent on committing atrocity and suffering in the region.

But no, the No True Scotsman fallacy is still a fallacy. ISIS is composed of Muslims. But that doesn't make what they are doing representative of the global Muslim community. In the same vein that those groups that bomb abortion clinics and murder doctors are made up of Christians, but what they are doing is not representative of the global Christian community.

Fanaticism, under any name, is still fanaticism.

-CryptoLutheran

Once again the voice of reason. I see what you're saying.

We also can't seem to reign in our fanatics either. What is a christian solution for dealing with our fanatics? Rebuking them? Some sort of excommunication of them wouldn't do anything I would imagine, and they would just do what my argument fallacy is doing : claim that the excommunicators aren't really christian themselves.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I recall Obama's saying in the latest news thing about IS/ISIS/ISIL that they were not really muslims. Everytime something on the news has anything on Obama.. I just have to read the comment sections on the article,if any.

I saw comments along the lines of, "Well it doesn't matter what you say they are. They think they're muslim."


What about our extreme branches of Christianity in the vein of ISIS? Are they Christian? They're doing very unchristian things, just like ISIS is doing very un-islamic things.

Please, I request we do not turn this thread into a "well muslims are doing things aligned with their religion!" I wish to discuss the skeletons in our closet. I am just using Islam as an example for comparison as they are making the headlines right now.

Which groups would be described as "Extreme Christians" on the same level as the Radical Militant Muslims?

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Which groups would be described as "Extreme Christians" on the same level as the Radical Militant Muslims?

Upon further study for groups. Militant Christians are not quite exactly in the same vein as radical muslims. Their fight is far more for secular reasons with vague out of context scripture for support and just stamp the word christian on their groups name to legitimize themselves more. Perhaps they are not on the same level as in being successful in maintaining their existence.

Extremist Christians? eh.

Covenant, the Sword and the Arm of the Lord - Encyclopedia of Arkansas

Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

George Tiller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anti-balaka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Phineas Priesthood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Army of God (United States) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

National Liberation Front of Tripura - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2011 Norway attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lord's Resistance Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hutaree - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[James Is Back]

See now that is a simple answer. You say they aren't, but all of them say they are.

I can compare the lack of voicing out against these groups that exist with the common complaint of, "Where are all the peaceful muslims speaking out against the radicals?"

We don't hear about them because eventually governments shut them down. Some are still around but never heard of.


I can bet of the hundreds of the "militias" scattered across the united states... a good amount is for their militant brand of a "christian america".. just biding their time to "liberate us" from the "oppressive government." I didn't know such groups existed in america until my friend who was a part of sucha militia quit when she discovered their goal of a ""fighting for a christian america".. she being a stout atheist obviously opposed this.

Examples are:

The Covenant, The Sword, And the Arm of the Lord. A former texas militant group in the 1970's that attempted to use 30 gallons of potassium cynanide to "cleanse the cities of undesirables" They are a white suprematist christian militia.

Lebanon's infamous Phalangist, worked with the IDF in coordination for the wholesale massacre of the Shatilla and Sabra refugee camps.

No true Christian would do what they do as it says in the Word "Thou Shall Not Murder"

Boy they sure have murdered a lot of people.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

No true Christian would do what they do as it says in the Word "Thou Shall Not Murder"

Boy they sure have murdered a lot of people.

I think most of these groups abuse what was written in the OT to legitimize their violence.

 

[Rhamiel]

I remember laughing when Obama said that ISIS is not really Muslim

If I used similar standards, saying who was and who was not Christian, I would be banned from CF lol

 

[BobRyan]

I recall Obama's saying in the latest news thing about IS/ISIS/ISIL that they were not really muslims. Everytime something on the news has anything on Obama.. I just have to read the comment sections on the article,if any.

I saw comments along the lines of, "Well it doesn't matter what you say they are. They think they're muslim."


What about our extreme branches of Christianity in the vein of ISIS? Are they Christian? They're doing very unchristian things, just like ISIS is doing very un-islamic things.

Please, I request we do not turn this thread into a "well muslims are doing things aligned with their religion!" I wish to discuss the skeletons in our closet. I am just using Islam as an example for comparison as they are making the headlines right now.

ISIS went from a mere 800 to over 30,000 in just 6 weeks. They did this by showing videos of 1000's of executions to the world - and the result was Muslims from almost every first world country - joining up.

Why is that?

Because the videos showed that they were doing exactly what tradition and the Qu'ran said that Mohammed did with those that opposed him. They were acting out in some cases old stories well known to Muslims and showing that this new leader is repeating verbatim the actions of Mohammed in these executions.

That was pretty convincing to the guys living in America, the UK, France, Germany and elsewhere.

So they signed up.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The pretent-it-is-not-there model worked so well with Zimmerman and the American pubic.

Maybe Obama can click his heels and make Muslim's believe that they are not really Muslims until they believe whatever Obama tells them to believe.

I remember laughing when Obama said that ISIS is not really Muslim

If I used similar standards, saying who was and who was not Christian, I would be banned from CF lol

Obama media said that Zimmerman "calls himself hispanic" because they could not believe that Zimmerman was really hispanic if his mother was not hispanic..


hmmm so then Obamma's mother was ....??

Oh no wait! you mean he just "calls himself black" according to the liberal media standards??

Seems odd that their own rules don't sit well with them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[GoingByzantine]

30,000/1,600,000,000 Muslims = .00001875% of worldwide muslims joined ISIS.

Sounds like a fringe group to me.

 

[Rhamiel]

30,000/1,600,000,000 Muslims = .00001875% of worldwide muslims joined ISIS.

Sounds like a fringe group to me.

well lets do the math for ISIS + Islamic Brotherhood + the Wahhabi Muslims of Saudi Arabia + the militant groups of Pakistan + Boko harem of Africa

well it would not be a majority of Muslims
it is a sizable enough minority, and something that has a historical precedence through the entire history of Islam, that I do not think we can easily dismiss it as it being "not Islam"

it would be like me saying "Calvinism is not Christianity"
Calvinism is not the majority of Christianity
but it has a big enough number, it has a solid enough history
that even if I disagree with it, I still have to contend with it as a Christian movement and not just pretend it is something that is totally outside Christianity

same with these ISIS guys

 

[mmksparbud]

I recall Obama's saying in the latest news thing about IS/ISIS/ISIL that they were not really muslims. Everytime something on the news has anything on Obama.. I just have to read the comment sections on the article,if any.

I saw comments along the lines of, "Well it doesn't matter what you say they are. They think they're muslim."


What about our extreme branches of Christianity in the vein of ISIS? Are they Christian? They're doing very unchristian things, just like ISIS is doing very un-islamic things.

Please, I request we do not turn this thread into a "well muslims are doing things aligned with their religion!" I wish to discuss the skeletons in our closet. I am just using Islam as an example for comparison as they are making the headlines right now.

You wish to discuss Christian skeletons???---You mean like the thousands upon thousands of "heretics" that the Catholic church burned, tortured, and so on and the thousands upon thousands of "heretics" that the Protestants than tortured and burned?--One good turn deserves another?--The thousands of Jews who were killed by Christians, or allowed to be killed?--the thousands and thousands of slaves tortured, brutalized, raped and so on by so called Christians--who would gladly revert to the "good old days" today--Is that the skeletons you're talking about??
Does that make what Isis is doing now ok??--I rally don't get your point. Is it to point out that as Christians we've often acted like demon-possessed devils ourselves?? Yes, we have, and we are and we will again--That still does not mean that it's OK. Warren Jeffs used God as a cover for child molestation and adultery and many idiots followed him and still follow him.

There have been many David Koresh's and Jim Jones and more will always show up and there will be no end of idiots to follow them. To the fanatic, it is not murder, child molestation, adultery, stealing, or evil in any way when it is done in the name of your god. Most of what passes as religion has nothing to do with religion but is a love of lust and power. Power to control women, to keep them uneducated sex slaves unable to do one single thing about it. Power over life and death. The power to have children as your personal sex toys. Power---it's the same old wish--"I will be like the Most High, I will exalt my throne above the stars..." The power to chop another into pieces for defying your wishes. Not love for God, love for power, with power you can indulge the love of lust. And lust comes in many forms, ending in blood lust without conscience.