For the sake of brother elwill, I preferred to copy Bushmaster's thread about Bible corruption and my reply to it in a new thread so as not to disperse the main thread.
Bushmaster said:
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Bushmaster: Corruption
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My reply
Well in the beginning, I would like to say that I see you have a gross misunderstanding of what Muslims mean when they say that the Bible is corrupted (I actually see that vast majority of Christians have that misunderstanding), Muslims NEVER meant that ALL the Bible is corrupted, they say that this book contains true and false scriptures. The case is that there is extensive evidence that there are lots of interpolations present in the Bible nowadays either by adding or eliminating or by replacement or contracdictions, but all that doesn't negate the fact that there are still true scriptures in the Bible, and that's why the Prophet (Peace be upon him) ordered us neither to believe nor to disbelieve the People of the Book.
As for DSS, well, first of all I see that what you said about them being identical to the Bible nowadays is not so accurate, because the case for them is that they are only some FRAGMENTS, what you found there identical to the Bible is a collection of some fragments, and they don't represent the majority of the Bible. Besides, many apocrypha (according to your canon)have been found also in Qumran as Genesis Apocryphon for example, and many other apocrypha, and a book like Ester wasn't found at all there, which puts a huge question mark about the authenticity of that book, what I mean is that what was found in that cave doesn't represent the Bible at all, and doesn't give an indication of the OT canon present at that time, that's why I still don't recognize it as a proof for Bible's authenticity.
Even if I continued on with you and assumed that they really represent the Bible, they are already 300 years later after Malachi the last OT prophet. So please give me a proof that the Bible was saved within that period.
Again we don't say that interpolation occured once, it occured at a long interval of time, either in the OT or in the NT. As for the Jewish corruption to the Bible, Christians already accuse them of doing so, Justin Martyr says in his dialogue with Trypho:
I think that I answered that question before, but as for the verse you quoted, let's look at the whole verse:
44. Surely, WE sent down the Torah wherein was guidance and light. By it did the Prophets, who were obedient to US, judge for the Jews, as did the godly people and those learned in the Law, because they were required to preserve the Book of ALLAH, and because they were guardians over it. . (Holy Quran 5:44)
See, the same concept I am telling about, they were required to preserve it, but that doesn't mean that they really did
Well in the beginning, I would like to say that I see you have a gross misunderstanding of what Muslims mean when they say that the Bible is corrupted (I actually see that vast majority of Christians have that misunderstanding), Muslims NEVER meant that ALL the Bible is corrupted, they say that this book contains true and false scriptures. The case is that there is extensive evidence that there are lots of interpolations present in the Bible nowadays either by adding or eliminating or by replacement or contracdictions, but all that doesn't negate the fact that there are still true scriptures in the Bible, and that's why the Prophet (Peace be upon him) ordered us neither to believe nor to disbelieve the People of the Book.
As for DSS, well, first of all I see that what you said about them being identical to the Bible nowadays is not so accurate, because the case for them is that they are only some FRAGMENTS, what you found there identical to the Bible is a collection of some fragments, and they don't represent the majority of the Bible. Besides, many apocrypha (according to your canon)have been found also in Qumran as Genesis Apocryphon for example, and many other apocrypha, and a book like Ester wasn't found at all there, which puts a huge question mark about the authenticity of that book, what I mean is that what was found in that cave doesn't represent the Bible at all, and doesn't give an indication of the OT canon present at that time, that's why I still don't recognize it as a proof for Bible's authenticity.
Even if I continued on with you and assumed that they really represent the Bible, they are already 300 years later after Malachi the last OT prophet. So please give me a proof that the Bible was saved within that period.
Again we don't say that interpolation occured once, it occured at a long interval of time, either in the OT or in the NT. As for the Jewish corruption to the Bible, Christians already accuse them of doing so, Justin Martyr says in his dialogue with Trypho:
Chap. LXXII. Passages Have Been Removed by the Jews from Esdras and Jeremiah
And I said, I shall do as you please. From the statements, then, which Esdras made in reference to the law of the passover, they have taken away the following: And Esdras said to the people, This passover is our Saviour and our refuge. And if you have understood, and your heart has taken it in, that we shall humble Him on a standard, and thereafter hope in Him, then this place shall not be forsaken for ever, says the God of hosts. But if you will not believe Him, and will not listen to His declaration, you shall be a laughing-stock to the nations.
And from the sayings of Jeremiah they have cut out the following: I [was] like a lamb that is brought to the slaughter: they devised a device against me, saying, Come, let us lay on wood on His bread, and let us blot Him out from the land of the living; and His name shall no more be remembered. Jer_11:19) And since this passage from the sayings of Jeremiah is still written in some copies 235 [of the Scriptures] in the synagogues of the Jews (for it is only a short time since they were cut out), and since from these words it is demonstrated that the Jews deliberated about the Christ Himself, to crucify and put Him to death, He Himself is both declared to be led as a sheep to the slaughter, as was predicted by Isaiah, and is here represented as a harmless lamb; but being in a difficulty about them, they give themselves over to blasphemy. And again, from the sayings of the same Jeremiah these have been cut out: The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation.
171 It is not known where this passage comes from172 This is wanting in our Scriptures: it is cited by Iren., iii. 20, under the name of Isaiah, and in iv. 22 under that of Jeremiah. Maranus
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf0....iv.lxxii.html
Another one? look at what was said by St. Chrysostom in his Homilies on Gospel Matthew
"6. We see here the cause why the angel also, putting them at ease for the future, restores them to their home. And not even this simply, but he adds to it a prophecy, That it might be fulfilled, saith he, which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.383
And what manner of prophet said this? Be not curious, nor overbusy. For many of the prophetic writings have been lost; and this one may see from the history of the Chronicles.384
For being negligent, and continually falling into ungodliness, some they suffered to perish, others they themselves burnt up385
385 and cut to pieces.The latter fact Jeremiah relates;386the former, he who composed the fourth book of Kings, saying, that after387a long time the book of Deuteronomy was hardly found, buried somewhere and lost. But if, when there was no barbarian there, they so betrayed their books, much more when the barbarians had overrun them. For as to the fact, that the prophet had foretold it, the apostles themselves in many places call Him a Nazarene.388
I was already about to quote similar scripts as Deu 2:4, and Rev22:18-19, but I see that I don't need to, because you already answered yourself. When God orders the Jews not to add nor to eliminate His words, is this a proof that they couldn't be corrupted? Of course not, but this is a clear proof that they COULD be corrupted, for God won't order them to do something that couldn't be done, otherwise you must say that Jews didn't worship idols because God ordered them not to do so. And this is not the case with the Quran, God never ordered us like that with the Quran, but He clearly said that He will preserve it. Got it?And I said, I shall do as you please. From the statements, then, which Esdras made in reference to the law of the passover, they have taken away the following: And Esdras said to the people, This passover is our Saviour and our refuge. And if you have understood, and your heart has taken it in, that we shall humble Him on a standard, and thereafter hope in Him, then this place shall not be forsaken for ever, says the God of hosts. But if you will not believe Him, and will not listen to His declaration, you shall be a laughing-stock to the nations.
And from the sayings of Jeremiah they have cut out the following: I [was] like a lamb that is brought to the slaughter: they devised a device against me, saying, Come, let us lay on wood on His bread, and let us blot Him out from the land of the living; and His name shall no more be remembered. Jer_11:19) And since this passage from the sayings of Jeremiah is still written in some copies 235 [of the Scriptures] in the synagogues of the Jews (for it is only a short time since they were cut out), and since from these words it is demonstrated that the Jews deliberated about the Christ Himself, to crucify and put Him to death, He Himself is both declared to be led as a sheep to the slaughter, as was predicted by Isaiah, and is here represented as a harmless lamb; but being in a difficulty about them, they give themselves over to blasphemy. And again, from the sayings of the same Jeremiah these have been cut out: The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation.
171 It is not known where this passage comes from172 This is wanting in our Scriptures: it is cited by Iren., iii. 20, under the name of Isaiah, and in iv. 22 under that of Jeremiah. Maranus
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf0....iv.lxxii.html
Another one? look at what was said by St. Chrysostom in his Homilies on Gospel Matthew
"6. We see here the cause why the angel also, putting them at ease for the future, restores them to their home. And not even this simply, but he adds to it a prophecy, That it might be fulfilled, saith he, which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.383
And what manner of prophet said this? Be not curious, nor overbusy. For many of the prophetic writings have been lost; and this one may see from the history of the Chronicles.384
For being negligent, and continually falling into ungodliness, some they suffered to perish, others they themselves burnt up385
385 and cut to pieces.The latter fact Jeremiah relates;386the former, he who composed the fourth book of Kings, saying, that after387a long time the book of Deuteronomy was hardly found, buried somewhere and lost. But if, when there was no barbarian there, they so betrayed their books, much more when the barbarians had overrun them. For as to the fact, that the prophet had foretold it, the apostles themselves in many places call Him a Nazarene.388
I think that I answered that question before, but as for the verse you quoted, let's look at the whole verse:
44. Surely, WE sent down the Torah wherein was guidance and light. By it did the Prophets, who were obedient to US, judge for the Jews, as did the godly people and those learned in the Law, because they were required to preserve the Book of ALLAH, and because they were guardians over it. . (Holy Quran 5:44)
See, the same concept I am telling about, they were required to preserve it, but that doesn't mean that they really did
We didn't say so, I have alreaady explained our point.
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Quote:
Really? What a spectacular proof? Should I get baptized now? But according to what denomination
?
Is this your evidence that the NT is preserved? A small fragment containing small part of Gospel Matthew is a proof that ALL NT was present at that time, I think this is a huge imagination, especially when I see that Gospel of Matthew is historically NOT written by him, I have my proof on that point, but let's go back to our issue. Please give me the evidence that the writer of Matthew didn't quote this fragment to build up his book? Or that this fragment is not a part of another apocyphon gospel? Or that it says that it is a part of Gospel according to Matthew? The same thing applies to other fragments. The case was that after Jesus (Peace be upon him) was raised, many gospels were written, and many books were referred to as Gospels, and I am sure you know that well, and many of these writers tried to collect Jesus' life in a book and quoted many sources (as Luke clearly admits for example). So when we find an anonymous fragment containing a verse in the contemporary NT, this couldn't be an evidence at all that this fragment is a part of canonical NT.
The same comic arguments of Zakaria Boutros, AbdulMasih Basit, Josh McDowell, and other Christian apologists. I think I have already answered them.
79. Woe, therefore, to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, `This is from ALLAH,' That they may take it for a paltry price. Woe, then, to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn.( Holy Quran 2:79)
Ibn Abbas, the Prophet's disciple said:
"O Muslims! How could you ask the People of the Book about anything, while the Book of Allah (Qur'an) that He revealed to His Prophet is the most recent Book from Him and you still read it fresh and young Allah told you that the People of the Book altered the Book of Allah, changed it and wrote another book with their own hands. They then said, `This book is from Allah,' so that they acquired a small profit by it. Hasn't the knowledge that came to you prohibited you from asking them By Allah! We have not seen any of them asking you about what was revealed to you.''
Besides, which is much more important, is that when you look at the quotations from the Torah and Injeel in the hadith books, you will find that they massively differ from your Bible, and I am 100% sure that Imam Al Bukhari didn't know about the attrocities in the Bible as the very shameful sins attributed to prophets and the differences between the Bible and the Quran, but it seems that he had different givens which he built on his conclusion.
Evidence is not measured by the number of mansucripts, but by their date, yes you have lots of manuscripts, but what shall they do when they are all after the third century AD? I am talking about manuscripts not fragments. I will talk about fragments now
Really? What a spectacular proof? Should I get baptized now? But according to what denomination
?Is this your evidence that the NT is preserved? A small fragment containing small part of Gospel Matthew is a proof that ALL NT was present at that time, I think this is a huge imagination, especially when I see that Gospel of Matthew is historically NOT written by him, I have my proof on that point, but let's go back to our issue. Please give me the evidence that the writer of Matthew didn't quote this fragment to build up his book? Or that this fragment is not a part of another apocyphon gospel? Or that it says that it is a part of Gospel according to Matthew? The same thing applies to other fragments. The case was that after Jesus (Peace be upon him) was raised, many gospels were written, and many books were referred to as Gospels, and I am sure you know that well, and many of these writers tried to collect Jesus' life in a book and quoted many sources (as Luke clearly admits for example). So when we find an anonymous fragment containing a verse in the contemporary NT, this couldn't be an evidence at all that this fragment is a part of canonical NT.
The same comic arguments of Zakaria Boutros, AbdulMasih Basit, Josh McDowell, and other Christian apologists. I think I have already answered them.Well, according to what I know, Al Razi didn't say so, may be Imam Bukhari said something like that, but we believe that we take and reject from anyone except the Prophet (Peace be upon him).God said in the Quran:
79. Woe, therefore, to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, `This is from ALLAH,' That they may take it for a paltry price. Woe, then, to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn.( Holy Quran 2:79)
Ibn Abbas, the Prophet's disciple said:
"O Muslims! How could you ask the People of the Book about anything, while the Book of Allah (Qur'an) that He revealed to His Prophet is the most recent Book from Him and you still read it fresh and young Allah told you that the People of the Book altered the Book of Allah, changed it and wrote another book with their own hands. They then said, `This book is from Allah,' so that they acquired a small profit by it. Hasn't the knowledge that came to you prohibited you from asking them By Allah! We have not seen any of them asking you about what was revealed to you.''
Besides, which is much more important, is that when you look at the quotations from the Torah and Injeel in the hadith books, you will find that they massively differ from your Bible, and I am 100% sure that Imam Al Bukhari didn't know about the attrocities in the Bible as the very shameful sins attributed to prophets and the differences between the Bible and the Quran, but it seems that he had different givens which he built on his conclusion.
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From my understanding, the Quran does not say that the Injil and Taurat were corrupted, they cant be as they were the books from God.
Nevertheless, what Muslims believe is that the message of the Injil and Taurat has been mixed with words of men which contain inaccuracies, and that some man now claim the new book to be divinely inspired.
Seriously, it does not matter if the OT or the NT are corrupted... they were NEVER referred to the Quran as the Injil or Taurat.
Nevertheless, what Muslims believe is that the message of the Injil and Taurat has been mixed with words of men which contain inaccuracies, and that some man now claim the new book to be divinely inspired.
Seriously, it does not matter if the OT or the NT are corrupted... they were NEVER referred to the Quran as the Injil or Taurat.
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I agree with you brother to a great extent, this is what I meant when I said that the Bible contains true and false scriptures. But the case is that there are also many scriptures from the Torah that are not present right now in the Bible, and if you looked at the Sunnah and early Islamic books, look for example at the prophecies of Muhammad (Peace be upon him) in early hadith books and compare them with the Bible nowadays, you will either see that these scriptures are not present in the Bible, or that they are present with a gross difference.
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Let's start out with the Islamic view concerning previous scriptures before we getting into any debate.
Belief in Allah’s Books is a pillar of Eeman. A person is not a believer without their pillar
O you who believe! Believe in Allah, and His Messenger (Muhammad ), and the Book (the Qur’an) that He has sent down to His Messenger, and the Scripture that He sent down to those before (him), and whosoever disbelieves in Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, then indeed he has strayed far away [4:136]
Belief in the Books entails:
Believing in the previous Books that Allah revealed to His Messengers. Included are those that Allah
has specifically mentioned in the Qur’an, such as:
The Scriptures of Ibraheem(Abraham):
And this is in the former Scriptures, the Scriptures of Ibraheem and Moosa [87:18-19]
The Zaboor(Pslams):
…And unto Dawood(David) we gave the Zaboor. [17:55]
The Tawrah(Torah):
Verily, We did send down the Tawrah [to Moosa(Moses)]. Therein was guidance and light [5:44]
The Injeel(Gospel):
Then, We sent after them, Our Messengers, and We sent ‘Eesa(Jesus) son of Maryam, and gave him the Injeel… [57:27]
There are many other books of an unknown number and unknown names:
Then if they reject you (O Muhammad) so were the Messengers rejected before you, who came with Al-Bayyinat (clear signs, proofs, evidences) and the Scripture and the Book of Enlightenment. [3:184]
Believing in the wahy (revelation.):
Verily, We have inspired you (O Muhammad ) as We inspired Nooh(Noah) and the Prophets after him; We (also) inspired Ibrahim, Isma’il, Ishaque(Isaac), Ya’qub(Jacob), and AlAsbat [the twelve sons of Ya’qoob], ‘Eesa,
Ayoob, Yoonus(Jonah), Haroon(Aaron), and Sulaiman(Solomon), and to Dawood We gave the Zaboor. [4:163]
The word used to refer to the revelations sent to some of the Prophets is ‘Kitaab’ which translates into English
as ‘Book’. The meaning however is much deeper than this. The word comes from the root which means ‘to combine something in one place.’ The reason that a book is called ‘Kitaab’ is because it combines the thoughts of the writer in one location.
The reason that the revelations sent by Allah are called ‘Kitaab’ is because they are the compilation of the inspirations sent to the Prophet over his period of Prophecy. According to some of the scholars all the messengers received their ‘Kitaab’ over a period of time, depending on the situations that they faced, and not all at once. These revelations were transmitted verbally through Angel Jebril. The only exception to this is the ‘AlwaaH’ or the inscribed Tablets that Allah sent to Musa(Moses) and his people. In Ayah 145 of Suratul ‘Araaf Allah tells us about the Tablets:
And we ordained laws for Him In the tablets In all matters, both commanding and explaining all things, (and said): "Take and hold these with firmness, and enjoin Thy people to hold fast by the best In the precepts: soon shall I Show you the homes of the wicked,- (How They lie desolate)." [7:145]
Belief in Allah’s Books is a pillar of Eeman. A person is not a believer without their pillar
O you who believe! Believe in Allah, and His Messenger (Muhammad ), and the Book (the Qur’an) that He has sent down to His Messenger, and the Scripture that He sent down to those before (him), and whosoever disbelieves in Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, then indeed he has strayed far away [4:136]
Belief in the Books entails:
Believing in the previous Books that Allah revealed to His Messengers. Included are those that Allah
has specifically mentioned in the Qur’an, such as:
The Scriptures of Ibraheem(Abraham):
And this is in the former Scriptures, the Scriptures of Ibraheem and Moosa [87:18-19]
The Zaboor(Pslams):
…And unto Dawood(David) we gave the Zaboor. [17:55]
The Tawrah(Torah):
Verily, We did send down the Tawrah [to Moosa(Moses)]. Therein was guidance and light [5:44]
The Injeel(Gospel):
Then, We sent after them, Our Messengers, and We sent ‘Eesa(Jesus) son of Maryam, and gave him the Injeel… [57:27]
There are many other books of an unknown number and unknown names:
Then if they reject you (O Muhammad) so were the Messengers rejected before you, who came with Al-Bayyinat (clear signs, proofs, evidences) and the Scripture and the Book of Enlightenment. [3:184]
Believing in the wahy (revelation.):
Verily, We have inspired you (O Muhammad ) as We inspired Nooh(Noah) and the Prophets after him; We (also) inspired Ibrahim, Isma’il, Ishaque(Isaac), Ya’qub(Jacob), and AlAsbat [the twelve sons of Ya’qoob], ‘Eesa,
Ayoob, Yoonus(Jonah), Haroon(Aaron), and Sulaiman(Solomon), and to Dawood We gave the Zaboor. [4:163]
The word used to refer to the revelations sent to some of the Prophets is ‘Kitaab’ which translates into English
as ‘Book’. The meaning however is much deeper than this. The word comes from the root which means ‘to combine something in one place.’ The reason that a book is called ‘Kitaab’ is because it combines the thoughts of the writer in one location.
The reason that the revelations sent by Allah are called ‘Kitaab’ is because they are the compilation of the inspirations sent to the Prophet over his period of Prophecy. According to some of the scholars all the messengers received their ‘Kitaab’ over a period of time, depending on the situations that they faced, and not all at once. These revelations were transmitted verbally through Angel Jebril. The only exception to this is the ‘AlwaaH’ or the inscribed Tablets that Allah sent to Musa(Moses) and his people. In Ayah 145 of Suratul ‘Araaf Allah tells us about the Tablets:
And we ordained laws for Him In the tablets In all matters, both commanding and explaining all things, (and said): "Take and hold these with firmness, and enjoin Thy people to hold fast by the best In the precepts: soon shall I Show you the homes of the wicked,- (How They lie desolate)." [7:145]
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What is our position regarding the Books remaining today
(The Tawrah and the Injeel)?
The Tawrah and the Injeel have both been changed a great deal since Allah revealed them to Musa and Isa respectively. Entire sections were added to the original Books after the Prophets past away. Every such addition is not considered as part of the Books. Ibn Qudamah has said that it is a majority opinion that even though this is the case, every sect of Jews and Christians that came after their Prophets is still considered as part of their religion. This means that the laws applied to Ahlul Kitaab will also apply to them. The proof of this is that in the time of the Prophet himself there were many different versions of Christianity. The Priests of Najaashi, the
Negus of Abyssinia believed that Isa was the son of Allah, while Najaashi himself believed that Isa was a Prophet of Allah.
Allah tells us in the Quran about the validity of the other Books:
Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will believe in your religion despite the fact that a party of them (Jewish Rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allah [the Tawrah], then they used to change it
knowingly after they understood it? [2:75]
Among those who are Jews, there are some who displace words from (their) right places and say: We hear your word (O Muhammad ) and disobey, [4:46]
And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them [5:14]
There are three opinions regarding our position towards the existing Books:
1) Imam Bukhari holds the belief that the Books are mostly the same since the time of their Prophets. He claims that the text did not change but it was the meaning that has been lost over the years. The reason behind this opinion is that once the Prophet was approached by a Jew and asked a question. The Prophet said that the answer can be found in the Jews own book. The man then brought the Tawrah and placed it in front of the Prophet. He took a pillow from under himself and put the Tawrah on it. He then said I
believe in you and the One Who sent you down [Sunan Abu Dawood]
Imam Bukhari takes this as proof that the book is still in its correct form or the Prophet who have never shown that level of respect to it.
Ibn Taymiyyah however counters this opinion by saying that there is at least one authentic copy of each revealed scripture somewhere in this world and the one brought before the Prophet was one
of these copies.
2) Imam Ibn Hazm on the opposite side of the spectrum holds the opinion that all the other revealed Books are completely changed and as such we do not have any of the authentic revelations left.
3) The third and last opinion is that some parts of the texts available today are still the same but there has been many changes made to them, as revealed to us by Allah in the above ayahs.
Ibn Al-Qayyim specifies five kinds of Tahreef, or changes, that crept into the Books:
1. Part of the text was lost;
2. Additions were made;
3. Incorrect translation;
4. Meaning was changed or interpreted incorrectly, and;
5. Words and phrases were substituted for others
Abu Huraryrah reported that the Jews used to read the Tawrah in Hebrew and then explain it in the Arabic to the Muslims. The Prophet warned, Do not believe the People of the Book and do not disbelieve in them. Just say to them, We believe in Allah and what was revealed to us and what was revealed to you.
[Al-Bukharee]
There are 3 types of text in these books:
1. Text that Allah or the Prophet acknowledged
2. Text that Allah or the Prophet rejected
3. Text that Allah and the Prophet didnt mention anything about
In the first two cases, it is clear what our position on these types of texts should be. In the third case the aboveHadith tells us what we should do. We should not reject it nor should we incorporate it as part of Islam.
The Previous Revelations contain the following:
o They called for Tawheed(monotheism)
o Source of guidance to people.
o Gave glad tidings of the coming of the Prophet (SAW)
o Gave the rules
o Made the lawful and unlawful
o Discusses the Day of Judgment.
(The Tawrah and the Injeel)?
The Tawrah and the Injeel have both been changed a great deal since Allah revealed them to Musa and Isa respectively. Entire sections were added to the original Books after the Prophets past away. Every such addition is not considered as part of the Books. Ibn Qudamah has said that it is a majority opinion that even though this is the case, every sect of Jews and Christians that came after their Prophets is still considered as part of their religion. This means that the laws applied to Ahlul Kitaab will also apply to them. The proof of this is that in the time of the Prophet himself there were many different versions of Christianity. The Priests of Najaashi, the
Negus of Abyssinia believed that Isa was the son of Allah, while Najaashi himself believed that Isa was a Prophet of Allah.
Allah tells us in the Quran about the validity of the other Books:
Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will believe in your religion despite the fact that a party of them (Jewish Rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allah [the Tawrah], then they used to change it
knowingly after they understood it? [2:75]
Among those who are Jews, there are some who displace words from (their) right places and say: We hear your word (O Muhammad ) and disobey, [4:46]
And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them [5:14]
There are three opinions regarding our position towards the existing Books:
1) Imam Bukhari holds the belief that the Books are mostly the same since the time of their Prophets. He claims that the text did not change but it was the meaning that has been lost over the years. The reason behind this opinion is that once the Prophet was approached by a Jew and asked a question. The Prophet said that the answer can be found in the Jews own book. The man then brought the Tawrah and placed it in front of the Prophet. He took a pillow from under himself and put the Tawrah on it. He then said I
believe in you and the One Who sent you down [Sunan Abu Dawood]
Imam Bukhari takes this as proof that the book is still in its correct form or the Prophet who have never shown that level of respect to it.
Ibn Taymiyyah however counters this opinion by saying that there is at least one authentic copy of each revealed scripture somewhere in this world and the one brought before the Prophet was one
of these copies.
2) Imam Ibn Hazm on the opposite side of the spectrum holds the opinion that all the other revealed Books are completely changed and as such we do not have any of the authentic revelations left.
3) The third and last opinion is that some parts of the texts available today are still the same but there has been many changes made to them, as revealed to us by Allah in the above ayahs.
Ibn Al-Qayyim specifies five kinds of Tahreef, or changes, that crept into the Books:
1. Part of the text was lost;
2. Additions were made;
3. Incorrect translation;
4. Meaning was changed or interpreted incorrectly, and;
5. Words and phrases were substituted for others
Abu Huraryrah reported that the Jews used to read the Tawrah in Hebrew and then explain it in the Arabic to the Muslims. The Prophet warned, Do not believe the People of the Book and do not disbelieve in them. Just say to them, We believe in Allah and what was revealed to us and what was revealed to you.
[Al-Bukharee]
There are 3 types of text in these books:
1. Text that Allah or the Prophet acknowledged
2. Text that Allah or the Prophet rejected
3. Text that Allah and the Prophet didnt mention anything about
In the first two cases, it is clear what our position on these types of texts should be. In the third case the aboveHadith tells us what we should do. We should not reject it nor should we incorporate it as part of Islam.
The Previous Revelations contain the following:
o They called for Tawheed(monotheism)
o Source of guidance to people.
o Gave glad tidings of the coming of the Prophet (SAW)
o Gave the rules
o Made the lawful and unlawful
o Discusses the Day of Judgment.
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HumbleSiPilot77
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You are certainly making a mistake by introducing ridiculing elements and disregarding the historical evidence in its context. I mean, until you are so sure about your stuff, I would not recommend having a grin yet.
This week I will be busy somewhere else, carry the thread over here;
http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/forumdisplay.php?f=14
This week I will be busy somewhere else, carry the thread over here;
http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/forumdisplay.php?f=14
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Well, until you can give me your (right context), I think I am sure of what I said. If you are busy, that's another issue, but actually I wanted your answer here because I saw your threads about that before, and I didn't have the chance to reply because I am so busy this year, nowadays I have a very small vacation where I thought that I could get your answer about my argument, may be one day I will carry my argument to your site, but it won't be now, but if you have time to answer my argument, then do it as soon as possible.
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HumbleSiPilot77
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I am truly sorry, however, like I said I will be taking a break from CF, if you like I will carry the entire argument of yours tomorrow and you will read the refutation as a guest over there later on (if you didn't want to register there).
There a few reasons I'd like to list so there is no speculation. First, I am busy with work and there are few things at work I need to finalize. Second, this is not a one-on-one type of argument as you can see from Adeeb's interjection, I say that because it presumes to set ground rules before I could even respond, third, there is a lack of historically apologetic faithful here, there are very sharp doctrine arguers and logic users but this particular subject requires 'em all, and fourth, the link is a place I have sponsored in the past, they do not see any weightily muslim argument that assumes historical assurance often. That being said, if you can't make it, I understand, your refutation will be there.
There a few reasons I'd like to list so there is no speculation. First, I am busy with work and there are few things at work I need to finalize. Second, this is not a one-on-one type of argument as you can see from Adeeb's interjection, I say that because it presumes to set ground rules before I could even respond, third, there is a lack of historically apologetic faithful here, there are very sharp doctrine arguers and logic users but this particular subject requires 'em all, and fourth, the link is a place I have sponsored in the past, they do not see any weightily muslim argument that assumes historical assurance often. That being said, if you can't make it, I understand, your refutation will be there.
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My Muslim brothers be prepared that when you get to a point that Bushy here has no argument no answers for you will start insulting you.Mind you speliing or grammar errors cos once he has no arguments then he make the thread into a bashing thread correcting your English and another point too,when others are busy and cannot respond he makes issues about it but he has excuses for himself that he is busy and cannot attend to posts.
A lot of hypocrisy going on here brothers.But remember you havemay support all the way.I have databases of books and information.
peace bros
A lot of hypocrisy going on here brothers.But remember you havemay support all the way.I have databases of books and information.
peace bros
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HumbleSiPilot77
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Well, we are not the month of "May" yet...yaqov said:
As you observe here MK11, this is one of the reasons that I choose to give you a list, because of the trolls of your faith who are not interested in true understanding and professional debate but who deliberately behave in such a way as to attract attention and bodily show-offs, can not understand the difference that I already told you that you will get a response. Those who resent my reaction should take a better stance when they promise to return and abandon their threads.
random said:
Like usual what? Usual way that I never leave, particularly you without an answer?
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HumbleSiPilot77
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You are the one who suggested and proposed that you will carry my thread there, did you retreat?
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I really don't see what this achieves. If the bible is a bunch of fairy tales that automatically kills any chance of me considering the quran because it was brought 600 years later by an illiterate who didn't show any signs of being a prophet of God. What exactly are we trying to achieve here? The quran doesn't even claim that the bible is corrupt, otherwise muslims wouldn't claim to believe in the prior revealed books.
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First of all, the Prophet (Peace be upon him) had a lot of miracles, saying that he had no signs is not true, if you meant the verses in the Quran talking about that, I am sorry to tell you that this is not true, remember what Jesus said to the Jews when they asked them about a sign, and he told them that he won't give them a sign except that of Jonah. Does this mean that he didn't perform other miracles?
Well, the Quran doesn't even recognize the Bible to claim whether it is corrupt or not, it recognizes the Torah and the Injeel, these are God's books, the Bible is a collection of true and false scripts. And if you looked at the early hadiths, you will find quotations from the Torah totally different from those present in the Bible, so we simply don't recognize the Bible.
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What did I tell you initially on this thread?
And then I reasoned with you.In a mature manner I explained you the reasons, now look, you are acting like a kid in grade school, from common logic, I am not going to spoon-feed you what you want. The authenticity of your work has to be considered and you can only do this by starting your own argument where I will be. Yes I can carry over your OP but I indicated this is not what I want but I am capable of it. Now act a little reasonable and carry over your thread so I can properly consider it this week.
Quote a miracle from the Quran... Christ's miracles are in the bible.
Where is the Injeel, (the only "greek" turned into arabic word)?
And then I reasoned with you.In a mature manner I explained you the reasons, now look, you are acting like a kid in grade school, from common logic, I am not going to spoon-feed you what you want. The authenticity of your work has to be considered and you can only do this by starting your own argument where I will be. Yes I can carry over your OP but I indicated this is not what I want but I am capable of it. Now act a little reasonable and carry over your thread so I can properly consider it this week.
Quote a miracle from the Quran... Christ's miracles are in the bible.
Where is the Injeel, (the only "greek" turned into arabic word)?
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