Bus Driver uppercut

[ThatRobGuy]

I know Australia is a different country but there was a case which demonstrates the point you are missing very well. A guy went to rob a store with a knife. The person had a cricket bat (similar to a baseball bat) and hit the assailant breaking his arm and causing them to drop the knife. That was deemed self defence. However the person then continued to hit them with the bat. That was assault. Police have training that ordinary people don't. So if a civilian is expected to know when to stop then police have more of a responsibility considering the training. Likewise in the Rodney King case the suggestion has been put forward that they did not stop when King stopped resisting. That is then wrong. They may have had correct actions up to that point but once he stopped they should have stopped. That is the training they are given as police officers. They failed to follow it. See it is actually possible (and not that uncommon) for both sides to be in the wrong. It isn't the black and white you like to suggest it is.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Here in the US, the reason many criminals aren't afraid to break the law is because they know groups like the ACLU and many liberals will fight for their rights over the rights of their victims.

I bet if Rodney King ever gets pulled over drunk again, he'll stay down when they tell him to stay down...

 

[IanCG]

That will be a strange day, considering he's dead.

And of course criminals break the law because bleeding hearts will fight for them. Why do you think we do it? We obviously want to see more crime, it promotes the homosexual agenda or something.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

That will be a strange day, considering he's dead.

And of course criminals break the law because bleeding hearts will fight for them. Why do you think we do it? We obviously want to see more crime, it promotes the homosexual agenda or something.

Didn't realize he had died, although
It stated he died of accidental drowning, although alcohol, cocaine, and marijuana were found in his blood and were contributing factors.


The point that I was trying to make is that there is such a thing as a healthy fear of authority figures like police. Our criminals have it too good in this country. They commit a felony, and everyone else gets to pay to feed and house them. Murderers get away with free room & board because liberals say that the death penalty is cruel.

Not sure why you threw the homosexual agenda thing in there (I'm actually pro-gay marriage), so you can stop playing the indignant card.

I never said liberals wanted more crime, just that liberals want to try things that either don't work or concede to criminal activities.

Example liberal logic from the last 30 years:
Let's reduce violent crime by disarming the good guys
Let's reduce drug crime by making drugs legal
Let's reduce poverty by giving poor people other peoples' money
Let's reduce minority unemployment by affirmative action quotas rather than education

 

[IanCG]

Our "criminals" often wouldn't be criminals in the first place if we didn't have such ridiculous laws and ridiculous enforcement of them. In America, someone can beaten by police for refusing to stop for an unjustified search, charged with resisting arrest and assaulting a police officer, go to prison and be sexually assaulted and brutalized for decades, then get out with no hope of reintegrating with society.

To most Americans, this is preferable to appearing "weak" on crime.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Our "criminals" often wouldn't be criminals in the first place if we didn't have such ridiculous laws and ridiculous enforcement of them. In America, someone can beaten by police for refusing to stop for an unjustified search, charged with resisting arrest and assaulting a police officer, go to prison and be sexually assaulted and brutalized for decades, then get out with no hope of reintegrating with society.

To most Americans, this is preferable to appearing "weak" on crime.

Care to provide some example of ridiculous laws and enforcement?

For your part in bold, how to you know an unjustified search is going to take place if you don't even stop when the police tell you to? If a cop turns on his lights to pull you over or asks you to stop and you try to run or flee, why wouldn't that be grounds for a search? A person with nothing to hide usually doesn't hit the gas when police try to pull them over for speeding. That's like throwing a bag under your seat while the cop is watching and then crying "unjustified search" when the cop asks to see what's in the bag.

 

[IanCG]

POLICE BRUTALITY: Cop turns off camera & beats up female - YouTube
57 Yr Old 3rd Grade Teacher Tasered 12 Times By Cops After Calling 911 For Burglar - YouTube
Chicago cops beat up man in wheel chair - YouTube
Mom Tased For Speeding 5 MPH Over Limit - Audra Harmon - Sheriff's Deputy Sean Andrews - YouTube

We are not free if we have to fear beatings from our own police force. No matter what someone is accused of, we are innocent until proven guilty, and non-compliance alone is never justification for brutality.

 

[IanCG]

Care to provide some example of ridiculous laws and enforcement?

For your part in bold, how to you know an unjustified search is going to take place if you don't even stop when the police tell you to? If a cop turns on his lights to pull you over or asks you to stop and you try to run or flee, why wouldn't that be grounds for a search? A person with nothing to hide usually doesn't hit the gas when police try to pull them over for speeding. That's like throwing a bag under your seat while the cop is watching and then crying "unjustified search" when the cop asks to see what's in the bag.

Aaron Sandusky Convicted: G3 Holistic Medical Marijuana Shop Owner Faces 10 Years To Life In Prison
That's for unreasonable laws and enforcement.

And if I'm walking down the road and cop asks me to stop and empty out my pockets, I should be able to tell him go eff off, I'm in America and I have the right to walk down the road without being accosted.

 

[Metal Minister]

Aaron Sandusky Convicted: G3 Holistic Medical Marijuana Shop Owner Faces 10 Years To Life In Prison

And if I'm walking down the road and cop asks me to stop and empty out my pockets, I should be able to tell him go eff off, I'm in America and I have the right to walk down the road without being accosted.

Well, you can say no, but if you use profanity, you may provoke said search. Police have to have a reasonable suspicion to order a search.

 

[IanCG]

Well, you can say no, but if you use profanity, you may provoke said search. Police have to have a reasonable suspicion to order a search.

Tell that to New York City. Reasonable suspicion is being a minority.

 

[Metal Minister]

Tell that to New York City. Reasonable suspicion is being a minority.

That's hogwash, I live in ny

 

[IanCG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixvrMGIPOpk

 

[IanCG]

That's hogwash, I live in ny

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1Dr-hMCy78
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsrvRSxP1a8
Stop-and-Frisks Target Minorities Regardless of Neighborhood, NYCLU Says - DNAinfo.com New York

Hogwash, right.

 

[Metal Minister]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1Dr-hMCy78
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsrvRSxP1a8
Stop-and-Frisks Target Minorities Regardless of Neighborhood, NYCLU Says - DNAinfo.com New York

Hogwash, right.

You can post YouTube videos till your blue in the face, there are millions of black folks that are left alone every day with no problems. You're taking a few anecdotal videos and trying to build a case. It's balogna...

 

[IanCG]

You can post YouTube videos till your blue in the face, there are millions of black folks that are left alone every day with no problems. You're taking a few anecdotal videos and trying to build a case. It's balogna...

You can say "balogna" til you're blue in the face, the numbers don't lie. 87% of people "randomly" searched or black or latino, who make up less than 50% of the population. That's a cold hard fact. These videos are not anecdotal, they are visual proof that such events I claim happen, happened.

I claim that it happens.
Oh yeah? Prove it.
I show several videos of it happening.
Balogna!

What kind of discourse is that? Are you denying what occurred in these videos happened? Is it some elaborate sound stage with paid actors or something? Or is the idea that some police abuse their authority and too many people make excuses for that abuse too disturbing for you to believe it?

 

[Metal Minister]

You can say "balogna" til you're blue in the face, the numbers don't lie. 87% of people "randomly" searched or black or latino, who make up less than 50% of the population. That's a cold hard fact. These videos are not anecdotal, they are visual proof that such events I claim happen, happened.

I claim that it happens.
Oh yeah? Prove it.
I show several videos of it happening.
Balogna!

What kind of discourse is that? Are you denying what occurred in these videos happened? Is it some elaborate sound stage with paid actors or something? Or is the idea that SOME police abuse their authority and too many people make excuses for that abuse too disturbing for you to believe it?

I caps locked the only pertinent part of your post. You cannot broad brush the NYPD (whom have a large number of minority officers) as racist. One problem with your numbers is that minorities also tend to commit a disproportionate amount of crime (usually on each other) in the form of gang violence in ny. Your videos are anecdotal, and the numbers are guesstimates. Most claims to profiling turn out to be false, but must be recorded. (I have family formerly on the NYPD).

 

[IanCG]

The numbers are from the NYPD themselves, from their quarterly reports. I never broad brushed the NYPD as racist, I said being a minority in New York is enough probable cause to be stopped and frisked, which given the numbers published by the NYPD, is supported by facts.

The videos I posted weren't all to prove the NYPD were racist, but to prove that police brutality happens. A woman getting beaten to a bloody pulp for being belligerent is not an anecdote. A wheelchair bound man being punched repeatedly as he's being wheeled away is not an anecdote.

My whole point, going all the way back to the Rodney King beatings, is that the police are there to enforce the law using the minimum of force necessary, that they should be held to a higher standard when it comes to the law than civilians, and we should not make excuses for those who abuse their authority. For some reason, this is a radical notion in this thread.

 

[iluvatar5150]

You can say "balogna" til you're blue in the face, the numbers don't lie. 87% of people "randomly" searched or black or latino, who make up less than 50% of the population. That's a cold hard fact. These videos are not anecdotal, they are visual proof that such events I claim happen, happened.

They are anecdotal; they're the definition of anecdotal.

But that doesn't mean you're wrong. In fact, the Bronx DA has stopped prosecuting these trespassing arrests w/o an interview with the arresting officer, basically telling the NYPD that their word can't be trusted.

-Dan.

 

[IanCG]

Anecdotal evidence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Videos of people being beaten are not anecdotal unless you're saying that what is being depicted in those videos isn't what's actually happening.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Anecdotal evidence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Videos of people being beaten are not anecdotal unless you're saying that what is being depicted in those videos isn't what's actually happening.

I know what anecdotal evidence is. "Anecdotal" does not mean "false." As your link describes, it means "cherry-picked" or not necessarily representative of a trend.

A video of a black kid being subject to stop-and-frisk is anecdotal evidence: it shows that one kid was stopped at one time. It does not say anything about the statistics of, for example, how often black kids are stopped by the NYPD relative to other demographics or how warranted those searches tend to be.

-Dan.

 

[IanCG]

I know what anecdotal evidence is. "Anecdotal" does not mean "false." As your link describes, it means "cherry-picked" or not necessarily representative of a trend.

A video of a black kid being subject to stop-and-frisk is anecdotal evidence: it shows that one kid was stopped at one time. It does not say anything about the statistics of, for example, how often black kids are stopped by the NYPD relative to other demographics or how warranted those searches tend to be.

-Dan.

I posted many videos. They were not all anecdotal, and I reiterated many times I was referring to the BEATINGS.

As far as demographics and statistics, the numbers were pulled from the NYPD quarterly reports. Unless you're saying the NYPD is lying, they stop blacks and latinos 87% of the time.