Burden of proof on us?!

[oi_antz]

Yeah, of course religious people can think critically. It's just that they tend to wall off a part of their brain- the religious part...

Actually, it is the sinful part of the brain we wall off. All those thoughts that contradict the ten commandments are thoughts that we refuse to consider.

1) I am the LORD your God, you shall have no other gods before me.

- An atheist breaks this rule every time they think about God.

2) You shall not make a graven image and bow down to it.

- Not thinking that atheist's do this, but they do make an imaginary God who is some sort of a bloodthirsty mosnter. That is idolatry.

3) You shall not use the Lord's name in vain.

- We don't see that around here, but in the outside world I cringe every time I hear it said. So sad, these people have no respect for the one who gave them life!

 

[EazyMack]

Yeah, of course religious people can think critically. It's just that they tend to wall off a part of their brain- the religious part...

That's your best response to everything that's been said? lol

Nice critical thinking!

 

[oi_antz]

Sorry, I was on my ipod for the last 4 hours of the conversation, so I have had limited capabilities in the way of quoting and clicking links.

Well, like a lot of words, I think the definition has changed over time, as well as meaning something different in day-to-day conversation, similar to 'Theory'. When I use the word 'Faith' in everyday use, I usually mean something which is unlikely to happen. Weird example, but when I play basketball with friends and one of my friends who is a horrible shooter takes an important shot, I would say that I have faith he would make it. I know it is unlikely he will make it, but I pretend that he will as it would come at a greater good. But, by definition, I think I would also have 'Faith' that I will wake up tomorrow morning, even though it is overwhelmingly likely. I think in everyday conversation, the meaning of 'Faith' is what I said it to be, but in a religious context, I suppose it is what you said.

Oh ok, thanks! I'm glad you understand what I mean by faith, I'm sure it will benefit a future conversation.

Having said this, I would, by definition, have faith in scientists and evolution, but there is no way I have more faith in them than someone does in god/Jesus. By which I mean, something which requires more faith would have less evidence to support it than something which requires little faith, such as me waking up tomorrow morning.

So the degree of faith is a matter of opinion - hmmm ok, I think I agree.

Alright, that is where I think you have a lot more faith in that than I do in evolution. I have contemporary evidence of transitional fossils, as well as new species being created right before our eyes. Not only this, there are mountains of evidence which can be tested, verified and, if necessary, changed. This is something you do not have. No evidence for god, Jesus or miracles can be tested or verified as they all conveniently happen behind closed doors; something which only one person, here or there, will claim to have seen or heard which may suggest nothing more besides the fact they had a hallucination, often while on drugs.

Yes, this is precisely correct. And yet we are both placing our hopes upon events that neither of us witnessed. There is stacks of evidence right in front of us, yet without seeing it all happen with our own two eyes we have enough faith to believe it! This is why I say "If Christians had as much faith in God as atheist's have in the theory of evolution, we would see revival".

A single 2000 book, published in a time where allegorical literature was extremely common, which makes claims as extraordinary as a man walking on water or turning water into wine (things which had been alleged to have been done before) is not enough to convince most atheists they are wrong, and never will be.

See the key word you used there is "most". I agree "most" atheist's will remain in an unrepentant state regardless how much you offer to help them. It's like offering to get a homeless person off the street, they just don't believe they can do it so there's nothing further you can do for them but to smile and stay a friend.

 

[mulimulix]

Did you read the cowist thread? The exact point is that even if people bring evidence, the acowist rejects it because its not "real" evidence. So my example that cows are real: I go show you a cow. But, as a stubborn acowist, you reply that this thing I've just shown you is not a cow, it is just a mechanical device that looks biological and cows, as living, breathing, natural organisms, don't exist.

But I explained that the evidence presented to me is not nearly enough, if anything. It is a 2000 year old book which could have been written by anyone in a time where allegorical literature was popular. Call me stubborn, but this is certainly not enough to convince me it is correct.

Most of these things can be explained by evolutionary biology, genetics and brain chemistry. Just as you can explain away a cow when someone shows it to you by saying that its just a mechanical contraption. So you will likely discount this "evidence" I have presented but its not like I really expect someone to become a believer in God via an internet forum anyway...

Oh, god. How on Earth can you compare these two thing? The amount of evidence for relationships between genomes? It is unbelievable. I am not going to bother to go into details of how absurd this comparison is.

Actually, it is the sinful part of the brain we wall off. All those thoughts that contradict the ten commandments are thoughts that we refuse to consider.

1) I am the LORD your God, you shall have no other gods before me.

- An atheist breaks this rule every time they think about God.

2) You shall not make a graven image and bow down to it.

- Not thinking that atheist's do this, but they do make an imaginary God who is some sort of a bloodthirsty mosnter. That is idolatry.

3) You shall not use the Lord's name in vain.

- We don't see that around here, but in the outside world I cringe every time I hear it said. So sad, these people have no respect for the one who gave them life!

You do understand that if an atheist does this, it isn't sinning? How can I sin against god if I don't believe he exists?

And also, what is this 'Bloodthirsty monster?'

Yes, this is precisely correct. And yet we are both placing our hopes upon events that neither of us witnessed. There is stacks of evidence right in front of us, yet without seeing it all happen with our own two eyes we have enough faith to believe it! This is why I say "If Christians had as much faith in God as atheist's have in the theory of evolution, we would see revival".

But I told you that not only do we have a lot more evidence for evolution than for god, but we can see it happening today. I can find examples if you want.

 

[oi_antz]

You do understand that if an atheist does this, it isn't sinning? How can I sin against god if I don't believe he exists?

Come on Mr logical. By breaking the ten commandments you are committing sin according to God's law. By saying God doesn't exist you are choosing instead to have an idol in His place. Your idolatry is thus giving all credit for existence and life itself to "chance" instead of "God".

And also, what is this 'Bloodthirsty monster?'

It is an impression someone has left on me after discussing a thread "Yahweh - Loving God or bloodthirsty monster". Basically it was all about slaughtering the unholy inhabitants of the promised land. I would like to use another term for this false impression of God, do you have any ideas?

But I told you that not only do we have a lot more evidence for evolution than for god, but we can see it happening today. I can find examples if you want.

Any evidence you have for evolution is just as much evidence for God in my opinion. So don't expect me to say that I give in. You are choosing to discard a very very important part of the universe. This particular piece of the universe that you are choosing to deny is the magical key that will make you realize that God is real and that you could one day get to shake His son's hand and bow in reverence of His glory. This God is the very person who makes an inconceivably complex system that scientist's can't stop marveling about. Wouldn't you want to know what the key is? Jesus has told you, all you have to do is obey God. I can tell you that very easily but I can see that it's a very difficult thing for you to hear. So if you really really want to know the truth about God then you are going to need to get serious about the kingdom of God.

Did you know that some Christians are actually working for Satan to prevent you from coming to know God? How do they do this? By gently turning your heart against God. They might think they are helping but what they are doing is giving the impression that Christianity is some sort of Jesus fan club and you aren't invited. Well, you know what I think eh mulimulix. I think that if you asked Jesus what He expected from you in terms of "obedience" it wouldn't be too much to ask for. I really think you need to dust off the covers on your Bible and start picking a bone with your impression of Christianity because if I can call myself a fundamentalist Christian and still say that the evidence of evolution is further evidence of God, then there must be a way that you too can come to know God while still using the understanding you have to benefit scientific discussions about biological evolution.

How do these comments inspire you to think? Are you curious to know the one who designed it the way it is, or are you content thinking that your life and my life are just coincidental?

 

[mulimulix]

Come on Mr logical. By breaking the ten commandments you are committing sin according to God's law. By saying God doesn't exist you are choosing instead to have an idol in His place. Your idolatry is thus giving all credit for existence and life itself to "chance" instead of "God".

But I don't believe in god! That is like saying you're breaking a Hindu law by eating beef. Obviously, you don't care about breaking that law because you don't believe it has any significance to you, just as atheists do with laws about the Judeo-Christian god. And what idol do I have?

It is an impression someone has left on me after discussing a thread "Yahweh - Loving God or bloodthirsty monster". Basically it was all about slaughtering the unholy inhabitants of the promised land. I would like to use another term for this false impression of God, do you have any ideas?

Well, it is true that god does A LOT of awful, evil and plain gruesome stuff in the OT. Read Numbers 31 for just a brief insight into what your god once did.

Any evidence you have for evolution is just as much evidence for God in my opinion. So don't expect me to say that I give in. You are choosing to discard a very very important part of the universe. This particular piece of the universe that you are choosing to deny is the magical key that will make you realize that God is real and that you could one day get to shake His son's hand and bow in reverence of His glory. This God is the very person who makes an inconceivably complex system that scientist's can't stop marveling about. Wouldn't you want to know what the key is? Jesus has told you, all you have to do is obey God. I can tell you that very easily but I can see that it's a very difficult thing for you to hear. So if you really really want to know the truth about God then you are going to need to get serious about the kingdom of God.

There is no key. I do not want to know the truth about god unless he tells me himself. Excuse me if this may offend you, but it shouldn't be up to me to go out and find god, he should get off his ass and come to me. That may sound a little blunt, but it should be obvious to him by now that I do not want to follow him (assuming he exists, for a second), and he should acknowledge that and do something about it! Talk about merciful, it sure is my fault he hasn't shown himself to me and for that, I deserve eternity in hell? Merciful? I don't think so.

Did you know that some Christians are actually working for Satan to prevent you from coming to know God? How do they do this? By gently turning your heart against God. They might think they are helping but what they are doing is giving the impression that Christianity is some sort of Jesus fan club and you aren't invited. Well, you know what I think eh mulimulix. I think that if you asked Jesus what He expected from you in terms of "obedience" it wouldn't be too much to ask for. I really think you need to dust off the covers on your Bible and start picking a bone with your impression of Christianity because if I can call myself a fundamentalist Christian and still say that the evidence of evolution is further evidence of God, then there must be a way that you too can come to know God while still using the understanding you have to benefit scientific discussions about biological evolution.

I don't know if you know, but a few months back, I posted a thread titles something like "One prayer - one chance" where I told people I will do about 5 minutes worth of prayer. I asked them what I should say and got some prayers out of it, and said them properly that night, and sure enough, nothing has happened since. I cannot do any more than this. After that moment, I said "If you want me, come and get me" because I am not going after you any more.

How do these comments inspire you to think? Are you curious to know the one who designed it the way it is, or are you content thinking that your life and my life are just coincidental?

I am fine living my life the way I am, and have not found a need for a deity.

 

[oi_antz]

its not like I really expect someone to become a believer in God via an internet forum anyway...

Do not place limits on God. I did in fact become Christian after being antichristian for 11 years by way of a discussion on a forum. Thing to remember is that it is not the content of the discussion that converts a person but it is the work of the Holy Spirit upon their heart. Thus, I had already decided to believe the Bible before I asked the Christians for the quote that converted me. Once I had that quote then I was healed, but the actual conversion came by soul-searching and not from listening to what other's had to say (I was far too proud to listen to what anyone else thought).

 

[oi_antz]

But I don't believe in god! That is like saying you're breaking a Hindu law by eating beef. Obviously, you don't care about breaking that law because you don't believe it has any significance to you, just as atheists do with laws about the Judeo-Christian god.

And what idol do I have?

Well, it is true that god does A LOT of awful, evil and plain gruesome stuff in the OT. Read Numbers 31 for just a brief insight into what your god once did.

There is no key. I do not want to know the truth about god unless he tells me himself. Excuse me if this may offend you, but it shouldn't be up to me to go out and find god, he should get off his ass and come to me.

Well it does offend me actually because when He did that the world murdered Him.

That may sound a little blunt, but it should be obvious to him by now that I do not want to follow him (assuming he exists, for a second), and he should acknowledge that and do something about it!

I think that is why He went peacefully and why He said "24 Anyone who doesn’t love me will not obey me. And remember, my words are not my own. What I am telling you is from the Father who sent me". There are many peole who just don't want God in their world. Well one day Omega will happen and then God will have His world again.

Talk about merciful, it sure is my fault he hasn't shown himself to me and for that, I deserve eternity in hell? Merciful? I don't think so.

Well you've obviously been hurt from a prior experience with Christianity. I can't guess what would make you think you deserve hell, but really when you think about it, is the sin worth suffering hell for? Don't you think that obeying God would be better?

I don't know if you know, but a few months back, I posted a thread titles something like "One prayer - one chance" where I told people I will do about 5 minutes worth of prayer. I asked them what I should say and got some prayers out of it, and said them properly that night, and sure enough, nothing has happened since. I cannot do any more than this. After that moment, I said "If you want me, come and get me" because I am not going after you any more.

If He wants you He will come and get you. Just make sure you are ready because from what you are showing me here you aren't ready to receive Him yet.

I am fine living my life the way I am, and have not found a need for a deity.

Who needs them anyway?

 

[oi_antz]

Mulimulix, just in case I haven't made it clear I thought I should spell it out: Jesus is going to return at some stage of time and claim the world in the name of God. The angels will take care of removing the stubborn sinners. He will have rules for how the world operates. Those of us who live in the current generation (somewhere between Alpha and Omega) have a choice to make: do we want to be part of the resurrected church of Jesus Christ and live forever in the world He rules, or do we want to live for the fleeting pleasures of today and forsake everlasting life?

Before you resort to the typical atheist response "there is no life after death", just think about the following passages:

Revelation 21
3 I heard a loud shout from the throne, saying, “Look, God’s home is now among his people! He will live with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them.[a] 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever.”

Isaiah 11:6-9 (New Living Translation)

6 In that day the wolf and the lamb will live together;
the leopard will lie down with the baby goat.
The calf and the yearling will be safe with the lion,
and a little child will lead them all.
7 The cow will graze near the bear.
The cub and the calf will lie down together.
The lion will eat hay like a cow.
8 The baby will play safely near the hole of a cobra.
Yes, a little child will put its hand in a nest of deadly snakes without harm.
9 Nothing will hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,
for as the waters fill the sea,
so the earth will be filled with people who know the Lord.

And read them a few times keeping in mind that the same certainty you have in evolution is the same certainty I have in God.

Every day you get up and think about life, you have the same opportunity to choose your destiny. These are the options Jesus has given you:

You can die forever and never be alive again. You will never see your family, you will never hug your mum, you will never smell a rose, you will never think. You are dead.

You can live forever doing the things you love about life. Only there are some things you may not do. You may not covet or lust or hate or steal etc, in other words we will all live in perfect harmony with nothing to ever even tempt us to do wrong.

The choice is yours to make. I've already made my choice, I have chosen to obey Jesus.

 

[mulimulix]

Well it does offend me actually because when He did that the world murdered Him.

What do you mean?

I think that is why He went peacefully and why He said "24 Anyone who doesn’t love me will not obey me. And remember, my words are not my own. What I am telling you is from the Father who sent me". There are many peole who just don't want God in their world. Well one day Omega will happen and then God will have His world again.

Let me get it straight that I am indifferent on the matter of following god. I cannot have an opinion on following something I do not believe exists. It is not that I specifically do not want to follow him, it is because it is not applicable with what I believe or disbelieve.

Well you've obviously been hurt from a prior experience with Christianity. I can't guess what would make you think you deserve hell, but really when you think about it, is the sin worth suffering hell for? Don't you think that obeying God would be better?

Funnily enough, the only Christian experience I have is going to a christening when I was about 6 or 7 years old. I remember it quite well, though. I have no other experiences with Christians as my entire schooling career was at a Jewish school, where almost everyone was non-religious, anyway. Basically, in Australia (and it's similar in New Zealand, isn't it?) there is almost no presence of religion in public. Every single one of my friends is non-religious, and it is not that they are my friends because of that, it is simply what the demographics of Australia is; there are a lot of non-religious people.

If He wants you He will come and get you. Just make sure you are ready because from what you are showing me here you aren't ready to receive Him yet.

Well, I'm sorry, but he obviously does not want me; I'm ready, I'm waiting.

Mulimulix, just in case I haven't made it clear I thought I should spell it out: Jesus is going to return at some stage of time and claim the world in the name of God. The angels will take care of removing the stubborn sinners. He will have rules for how the world operates. Those of us who live in the current generation (somewhere between Alpha and Omega) have a choice to make: do we want to be part of the resurrected church of Jesus Christ and live forever in the world He rules, or do we want to live for the fleeting pleasures of today and forsake everlasting life?

Wow. There's not much I can say to this, simply because you are making such an amazing claim. If you believe that, then that is fine, but I really wish you had something to back it up besides a 2000 year old book. Why is it that the OT/NT are correct when thousands of other religions before, during and after Christianity was created aren't? Why do you disregard the Quran, for example?

Before you resort to the typical atheist response "there is no life after death", just think about the following passages:

And read them a few times keeping in mind that the same certainty you have in evolution is the same certainty I have in God.

Bible quotes will not convince me of anything other than the fact that they exist because I do not believe they are divinely inspired.

Every day you get up and think about life, you have the same opportunity to choose your destiny. These are the options Jesus has given you:

You can die forever and never be alive again. You will never see your family, you will never hug your mum, you will never smell a rose, you will never think. You are dead.

You can live forever doing the things you love about life. Only there are some things you may not do. You may not covet or lust or hate or steal etc, in other words we will all live in perfect harmony with nothing to ever even tempt us to do wrong.

The choice is yours to make. I've already made my choice, I have chosen to obey Jesus.

Here is the interesting thing about the afterlife:

Would you really want to have an eternal after life, whether is be good or bad? The argument often comes up where a Christian will say something like "If you're an atheist, why don't you just run around raping and killing people?" There are a few answers to this. I sometimes sayr "You're a Christian, so not only could you do those things to, but you could get away with them, if you sincerely repented." But I prefer to say "This is the only life I will get. Breaking the law and being put in jail will be detrimental to the 80 years I spend on this planet. By not breaking the law, I improve my only life as well as others. If I become a doctor, I can help countless people from illnesses etc. Not only this, I am helping people, even long after I am dead, by improving standard of living for people now, even if it is by the most minute amount. Living is to help other people; not to help you. Having an afterlife makes you focus on how YOU can have a better afterlife, not how others can. Not only this, it also devalues the life you are currently living. So what if I am wrong? At least I have helped others. What if you're wrong? You didn't help others as you could have and you didn't live your life like you could have. You decide which is worse.

 

[begt]

That's your best response to everything that's been said? lol

Nice critical thinking!

I think you should read some of my other posts in this thread. At least some of you, I'm sure, find them interesting and thought provoking.

 

[oi_antz]

Well, I'm sorry, but he obviously does not want me; I'm ready, I'm waiting.

He didn't tell us to wait!

Then he said to the crowd, “If any of you wants to be my follower, you must turn from your selfish ways, take up your cross daily, and follow me.

I'm telling you mulimulix, Jesus has already taken the first step and it is now up to you to take upon yourself the necessary next step of obeying Him. When you do this He will reveal Himself to you. That is His promise.

What motivates you so much not to obey Him?

 

[mulimulix]

He didn't tell us to wait!

Then he said to the crowd, “If any of you wants to be my follower, you must turn from your selfish ways, take up your cross daily, and follow me.

I'm telling you mulimulix, Jesus has already taken the first step and it is now up to you to take upon yourself the necessary next step of obeying Him. When you do this He will reveal Himself to you. That is His promise.

What motivates you so much not to obey Him?

I feel like we are going around in circles here. I already told you that it's not that I do not want to obey him. The word 'Want' is inapplicable in this situation, because I don't believe the thing we are talking about exists! Bare with me and let me ask you this:

What motivated you so much not to believe in the Loch Ness Monster?

 

[oi_antz]

I feel like we are going around in circles here. I already told you that it's not that I do not want to obey him. The word 'Want' is inapplicable in this situation, because I don't believe the thing we are talking about exists! Bare with me and let me ask you this:

What motivated you so much not to believe in the Loch Ness Monster?

Mulimulix, I can not do anything more than testify of what I know to be true. If you refuse to listen to my message then I can do nothing more for you. If you happen to know that the Loch Ness monster has a message for me I will be glad to hear it.

Edit: to refresh your memory, this is the message I brought for you:

Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”

 

[mulimulix]

Mulimulix, I can not do anything more than testify of what I know to be true. If you refuse to listen to my message then I can do nothing more for you. If you happen to know that the Loch Ness monster has a message for me I will be glad to hear it.

It is irrelevant whether Nessie has a message for you or not. Please, just answer. What motivates you to not believe in the Loch Ness Monster?

 

[oi_antz]

It is irrelevant whether Nessie has a message for you or not. Please, just answer. What motivates you to not believe in the Loch Ness Monster?

Mulimulix, you are being extremely presumptuous! I don't discredit the claims of people who have seen a monster in Loch Ness! Why did you think I would?

Please allow me the privilege to quote one verse from Paul that I can say 100% says what I want to say to you right now.

2 Corinthians 4 (New International Version, ©2011)

1 Therefore, since through God’s mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God.

If you say that you don't believe in God and I say that I do believe in God, then one of us must be wrong. I would not like to be the wrong one because I know that when He sets out to get me there'll be no place to hide

 

[mulimulix]

If you say that you don't believe in God and I say that I do believe in God, then one of us must be wrong. I would not like to be the wrong one because I know that when He sets out to get me there'll be no place to hide

It's not quite the simple, I'm afraid. Now you are the one being presumptuous by assuming that if there is a god, it is the god you believe in. You're making the presupposition by not only believing in a god, but choosing one out of millions that have been created in human history.

You say you believe in Christianity, Abdul in Pakistan says he believes in Islam, Khumar in India says he believes in Hinduism and Menachem in Israel says he believes in Judaism. You can't all be right...

And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[oi_antz]

It's not quite the simple, I'm afraid. Now you are the one being presumptuous by assuming that if there is a god, it is the god you believe in. You're making the presupposition by not only believing in a god, but choosing one out of millions that have been created in human history.

You say you believe in Christianity, Abdul in Pakistan says he believes in Islam, Khumar in India says he believes in Hinduism and Menachem in Israel says he believes in Judaism. You can't all be right...

And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

I don't think you understand it properly. There is one God and there are a number of other entities that aren't God but they lie and say they are. You can flog a dead horse all you like but really it just comes down to the fact that you will either obey Jesus or you won't, unless you have another card up your sleeve?

 

[Dragons87]

Yeah, of course religious people can think critically. It's just that they tend to wall off a part of their brain- the religious part...

Well, can I not say the same for atheists, that they wall off the part of their brain that is meant to respond to God? In the same vein I could accuse atheists of being ignorant of bigger things, like a dog chasing its own tail...

My point isn't to prove you wrong, but just that both our viewpoints are equally valid. Just because you're atheist and you think that you think critically doesn't mean that there is a detectable and inevitable causal link between critical thinking and atheism. My critical thinking - along with numerous other influences, no doubt - has led me to believe that there has to be a god, and in the Judeo-Christian sense. Your critical thing - along with numerous other influences - has led you to believe that there is no god, in whatever sense. Critical thinking is a tool to process what we encounter; it doesn't necessarily have to make everyone end up with the same conclusions.

 

[mulimulix]

I don't think you understand it properly. There is one God and there are a number of other entities that aren't God but they lie and say they are. You can flog a dead horse all you like but really it just comes down to the fact that you will either obey Jesus or you won't, unless you have another card up your sleeve?

Ok, I cannot believe you don't see this. How can you say with all certainty that you are right and the billions of people who believe in similar or different gods are wrong? They are just as certain that their god(s) exists as you are. If you cannot see the fault in this...I dunno; it is just completely one-eyed.

To answer your question, I do not want to follow Jesus.