Burden of proof on us?!

[oi_antz]

Hi Begt, can you please use the quote button on each post when you respond, it makes reading a lot easier, thanks.

I'm not the crazy one. You assert that god exist when there's no evidence of it.

No, what I was saying is that you can't be certain about God's existence so you say "without absolute certainty" (I doubt my beliefs), for all practical purposes (I double doubt my beliefs), god cannot exist unless proven otherwise (triple doubt?).

That's why it sounded crazy, but I am sorry to break it to you the way I did, that was far less than humble.

I'm not ignoring god, I don't believe that he exists so how can I ignore him then?!?!

God has been interacting with humanity since it began. Parts of His interaction have been recorded. Here is one particularly pertinent piece:

Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

Since Jesus physically came and spoke these words yet you don't believe Him then you are choosing to ignore Him.

Asserting that something exists without evidence is crazy. If a god existed and wanted to spread christianity he would simply reveal himself or in other ways make it crystal clear to everyone in the world that he exists. So far none of that has happened.

Some people just don't want to believe. God isn't like the typical human who will come around with a baseball bat to make you squeal submission. Instead He will let you walk around in the dark until you choose to come to the light willingly. It has the effect of sorting out those who hate God from those who love Him.

It would be evil and deceptive of him to conceal himself and then pass judgement on people that were not indoctrinated when they were kids.

You are making an imaginary concept of God. God is just and righteous, whenever you think God is somehow evil then you are worshiping a false god. Please take this on board because I told you that in my first post to you. Allow me to refresh your memory:

"You can make up a false impression of God by ignoring Him or only listening partially to what He says but that's totally different."

I do understand you concern though "why would God send me to hell for being a good atheist"? I can show you a scripture that I read the other day that will answer this. But do be warned, while we all say we want to know the truth, sometimes the truth is not convenient and we decide that we don't want to believe the truth and then it makes it harder the next time we are faced with truth because then we have to accept two truths. So you can get stuck in a pretty bad way every time you go up against God. Best thing is not to reject the truth but just let it ponder in the back of your mind until you become comfortable with it. Here goes:

Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.” 22 Judas (not Judas Iscariot, but the other disciple with that name) said to him, “Lord, why are you going to reveal yourself only to us and not to the world at large?” 23 Jesus replied, “All who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them. 24 Anyone who doesn’t love me will not obey me. And remember, my words are not my own. What I am telling you is from the Father who sent me.

Besides why would an omnipotent being need worship from small insignificant human beings? That's just pathetic, perverse, senseless and evil. It would be like a grown man playing with 3-year old children and require that they worship him or something. The difference of course would be that the difference in intellect and other powers would be even bigger between grown ups and an omnipotent god.

Well it's not really like that. It's more a case that God has been watching a fascinating ant farm in His back yard and He has found that some of them love life so much they want to worship the one who gave them their life. So He has agreed and has spoken to them the terms upon which we can love Him. Some of the ant's aren't happy with the terms of the agreement so they go away discontented. Some of the other ants aren't happy with the terms either but they choose to lie and say they practise what they preach but they are hypocrites. Such hypocrites can shed innocent blood in the name of God! There are some however that love God and live according to His terms. I know what you are saying though, if God can love just one of us so dearly then surely He has love for any old wood slater that lives in the Amazon jungle? I suspect He probably does

Think about what I've just written, it makes perfect sense.

I can only think in a way that is based upon a presumption that God is who I know Him to be. You can only think based upon an assupmtion that God is not real, or you can also think based upon a presumption that God is not who I know Him to be. So we can't think the same way if we even try to, I'm not willing to have an atheist mind set and likewise you are not willing to have a Christian mindset. Nonetheless, whatever we think is right is surely going to make sense to us

" It must drive you atheist's crazy though to see all these joyful Christians bopping around saying how much they love Jesus"

What bothers me is that human beings can be manipulated and indoctrinated so easily. That's the scary part. If you really want there to be a god then the mind can play tricks on you so that you finally believe it.
This is what has happened to many people in North Korea. People there have, since a very young age, been taught that Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il are gods, they have been forced to repeat this over and over again. Many genuinely believe this to be the truth.

I don't envy christians, they tend to get divorced more often, end up in jail more often. Also in America they tend to have lower education than atheists.

Didn't you know that they make enemies with Satan when they become Christian? Therefore Satan has more interest in making Christians look bad and there is more burden of responsibility on a Christian to remain repentant. How long have you been studying Christianity?

 

[mulimulix]

oi_antz, I can see your argument with begt isn't going anywhere fast. It's just going to be a "'I think this' 'I think this' 'You're wrong, here's why' 'No, you're wrong, here's why'"

The one thing I will say on this is that I, and I assume, all other atheists do not purposely avoid god. I can honestly say, I lived the first 13 or so years of my life not concerned about religion, even though I did go to a Jewish school, and in that time, never had any reason to believe in god. Trust me on this, we don't avoid god, just like we don't avoid evidence for Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster. If god showed himself to us in an unambiguous way, we wouldn't ignore it.

 

[Jarnold4108]

I have never knocked science. But, to deny God because it's not explainable by science or it's not a physical thing we can touch/feel, doesn't make it any less real or accurate. We will agree to disagree in that regards. I think most of what we believe by science is just humans trying to make sense of things we cannot explain(afterall, that is what we do by nature). Whether or not they are true or factual, we will never know. Science does have its benefits, I've never disputed that.

About God 'interfering' with every "near death experience" the simplest reason for that is a rhetorical question, "how can God interfere while still giving us free will?" he gave us the option to choose what we want. What we do with that is up to us. He uses us as puppets and other 'experiences' and 'events', too(such as nearly dying). What we choose to believe/see/feel is ours to believe/see/feel. Original sin was given to us as humans, we are not perfect so, he's not just going to snap his fingers and make us all perfect -- we have that free will because of him, luckily.

The gospels were written 30 years after the fact -- does that not mean they are first hand experiences? I can write about people I've met 30 years ago with pretty good accuracy --- can you? That's not disproving anything. People today are writing about dinosaur's that lived millions of years ago based off of fossils and you think 30 years is too much? People that despised Jesus never denied his existence, but -- it's easier to do so nowadays, so people will. That's fine.


There's nothing going to change your mind or your beliefs because it's not easily explained by science, that's fine. I just don't buy a lot of these arguments I've heard because Jesus/scriptures and others have directly talked about them or forewarned us about them. Best of luck to you in your search for whatever answers you seek or validation you seek by being on these forums.

 

[oi_antz]

oi_antz, I can see your argument with begt isn't going anywhere fast. It's just going to be a "'I think this' 'I think this' 'You're wrong, here's why' 'No, you're wrong, here's why'"

The one thing I will say on this is that I, and I assume, all other atheists do not purposely avoid god. I can honestly say, I lived the first 13 or so years of my life not concerned about religion, even though I did go to a Jewish school, and in that time, never had any reason to believe in god. Trust me on this, we don't avoid god, just like we don't avoid evidence for Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster. If god showed himself to us in an unambiguous way, we wouldn't ignore it.

Is this from my parable of the ant farm? Get this, Jesus has done His part, there is nothing more that He is obliged to do. I quoted this in the last post, you seem to not have fully absorbed it's meaning. It is Jesus' own words telling you that the burden is on you to obey Him and when you obey Him then He will reveal Himself to you:

Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”

Judas (not Judas Iscariot, but the other disciple with that name) said to him, “Lord, why are you going to reveal yourself only to us and not to the world at large?”

Jesus replied, “All who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them.

 

[mulimulix]

Is this from my parable of the ant farm? Get this, Jesus has done His part, there is nothing more that He is obliged to do. I quoted this in the last post, you seem to not have fully absorbed it's meaning. It is Jesus' own words telling you that the burden is on you to obey Him and when you obey Him then He will reveal Himself to you:

Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”

Judas (not Judas Iscariot, but the other disciple with that name) said to him, “Lord, why are you going to reveal yourself only to us and not to the world at large?”

Jesus replied, “All who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them.

That doesn't really answer much. I explained to you that Jesus has not shown himself to me or begt (I assume). And if he did show himself to me, it was in a manner so discreet, I don't even remember it today.

 

[oi_antz]

That doesn't really answer much. I explained to you that Jesus has not shown himself to me or begt (I assume). And if he did show himself to me, it was in a manner so discreet, I don't even remember it today.

Are you obeying Him? Do you remember what it was that made you denounce Christianity?

 

[mulimulix]

Are you obeying Him? Do you remember what it was that made you denounce Christianity?

I never denounced Christianity because I was never a Christian.

 

[oi_antz]

I never denounced Christianity because I was never a Christian.

What about the first question. Why aren't you obeying Him? (You don't need to answer if it is too personal, it's just to get you to think about the reason why He hasn't revealed Himself to you). Jesus is faithful to His word, if He says all you need to do is obey Him then that's all you need to do. However it's well beyond my role to tell you what "obeying Jesus" means, you'll have to consult the Bible on that one. Perhaps begin with the ten commandments and see which one hurts the most. I stand witness to the fact that I obey Him and His deity has revealed Himself to me at least three times that have left distinct impressions on my memory

 

[mulimulix]

What about the first question. Why aren't you obeying Him? (You don't need to answer if it is too personal, it's just to get you to think about the reason why He hasn't revealed Himself to you). Jesus is faithful to His word, if He says all you need to do is obey Him then that's all you need to do. However it's well beyond my role to tell you what "obeying Jesus" means, you'll have to consult the Bible on that one. Perhaps begin with the ten commandments and see which one hurts the most. I stand witness to the fact that I obey Him and His deity has revealed Himself to me at least three times that have left distinct impressions on my memory

Lol, because i don't see a need to. I see no reason to pick christianity over any other religion. More importantly, why do YOU follow jesus?

Regarding the commandments, you do know there are more than ten of them, right? Among the 613 commandments, there are shocking ones which i definitely do not want to practise nor worship a god which cOndones them

 

[oi_antz]

Lol, because i don't see a need to. I see no reason to pick christianity over any other religion. More importantly, why do YOU follow jesus?

Regarding the commandments, you do know there are more than ten of them, right? Among the 613 commandments, there are shocking ones which i definitely do not want to practise nor worship a god which cOndones them

I will tell you if you are interested, but it sounds like you aren't.

 

[mulimulix]

I will tell you if you are interested, but it sounds like you aren't.

Well, i am quite interested.

Your quote in your signature from ray comfort caught my eye. Does this mean you dont accept evolution and do you really think atheists (and many theists) have faith in it?

 

[oi_antz]

Well, i am quite interested.

Your quote in your signature from ray comfort caught my eye. Does this mean you dont accept evolution and do you really think atheists (and many theists) have faith in it?

It's more that this definition of "faith" is so accurate. That is what made me put it there.

 

[mulimulix]

It's more that this definition of "faith" is so accurate. That is what made me put it there.

Are you implying that there is little or no evidence for evolution?

 

[oi_antz]

Are you implying that there is little or no evidence for evolution?

Not at all, just that none of us were there to witness it.

 

[mulimulix]

Not at all, just that none of us were there to witness it.

Evolution is happening right now. Faith is not compatible with science as the scientific method prevents hypotheses with little or no evidence from becoming theories.

 

[oi_antz]

Evolution is happening right now. Faith is not compatible with science as the scientific method prevents hypotheses with little or no evidence from becoming theories.

I agree. Theories are just a means to explain evidence. How much trust you place on a theory is the item I call "faith". Most important thing is that scientist's understand the mechanisms well enough to engineer inoculations.

 

[mulimulix]

I agree. Theories are just a means to explain evidence. How much trust you place on a theory is the item I call "faith". Most important thing is that scientist's understand the mechanisms well enough to engineer inoculations.

I dont quite understand. Where is the faith that i have in scientists?

 

[oi_antz]

I dont quite understand. Where is the faith that i have in scientists?

I don't understand your question. Let me post my signature here and let's see specifically where we come unstuck. I'm sure it's just a misunderstanding:

Ray Comfort
If Christians had as much faith in God as atheists have in the theory of evolution, we would see revival.

So, first we must establish that atheist's have faith in the theory of evolution. Ray has stated that he believes (and at this stage I don't know any better) that atheist's have no option but to believe in the theory of evolution because the alternative calls for some sort of theism or intelligent design, both which conflict with atheist beliefs. The amount of trust that an atheist places in the theory of evolution is the item I called faith in post #72.

Now relate the amount of trust a Christian has in a literal interpretation of the Genesis account and we see that atheist's faith is much stronger than Christian faith. And that's only one book of the Bible. Thus I conclude just as Ray concludes, if Christians had as much faith in God as atheist's have in the theory of evolution, we would see revival.

Do you agree or disagree?

If I am wrong about something I need your correction.

 

[mulimulix]

First, we need to define 'faith'. I define it as a belief in something with little or no evidence. If we can agree on that, i have no faith in scientists or evolution as both are accurate and reliable. Thoughts?

 

[oi_antz]

First, we need to define 'faith'. I define it as a belief in something with little or no evidence. If we can agree on that, i have no faith in scientists or evolution as both are accurate and reliable.

LOL! Did you miss what I said in post #72? I'll say it again:

It's more that this definition of "faith" is so accurate. That is what made me put it there.

Notice that these are Ray's words, they aren't from the Bible. Here is how Paul of Tarsus described faith:

1 Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see.

I just want you to be 100% sure that your definition of faith is authoritative before we compare it to these sources. I would say that someone who freely admits and exercises faith will no doubt trump an observer who doesn't exercise faith. Are you sure that your definition of faith is authoritative?

Thoughts?

The Bible is evidence of God. Jesus is evidence of God. Jesus' disciples are evidence of God. Creation is evidence of God. You just seem to have some sort of problem that prevents you from accepting all this evidence. Are you aware of what might be causing it?