Buddhism: Neither Theistic nor Atheistic

Gxg (G²) · Jun 25, 2015

nightflight said:
both religions teach salvation (or enlightenment) by grace; however there was an historical Jesus; I can't say the same for Amida.

True enough when it comes to the person of Amida not being proven historically.

Yoder777 · Jun 26, 2015

I am so thankful for Shin Buddhism. Before discovering Jodo Shinshu, I thought of Buddhism as an esoteric path of self-denial. Now, because of Jodo Shinshu, I understand Buddhism as a simple path of self-forgetfulness. Shinran has helped me to see myself and my place in the world in a different light than I thought a Buddhist teacher ever could.

If you understand how, in Mahayana Buddhism, the Bodhisattva vows to attain enlightenment for the sake of helping all beings reach enlightenment, then you will understand why Jodo Shinshu Buddhists place their trust in the grace of Amida Buddha. It's as simple as that.

Gxg (G²) · Jun 26, 2015

Jane_the_Bane said:
This whole debate (and the considerable ire attached to it) seems to stem from the idea that world views need to be "pure" in order to be valid, and that coming into contact with other perspectives is to be seen as a sort of corruption or subjugation.

If it seems there is inability to realize similarity of thought (or even convergent evolution of thought), there is a dynamic with seeing that a position is not truly sustainable because people are not truly secure with in it.

Jane_the_Bane · Jun 26, 2015

It's great to hear that you found such contentment and fulfillment in your particular path.
I can say with some certainty that such an approach to spirituality could never work for me, however.

Gxg (G²) · Jun 26, 2015

Jane_the_Bane said:
It's great to hear that you found such contentment and fulfillment in your particular path. I can say with some certainty that such an approach to spirituality could never work for me, however.

Everyone differs at some point or another, IMHO..

gord44 · Jun 26, 2015

Gxg (G²) said:
Everyone differs at some point or another, IMHO..

Indeed. Explains the need for multiple religions and multiple paths. Everyone is different.

Gxg (G²) · Jun 26, 2015

gordRedeemed said:
Indeed. Explains the need for multiple religions and multiple paths. Everyone is different.

I'd go at things more so from the point that everyone is at a differing level of understanding and so we all have to have dialogue and work for folks where they are at. Dr.Amos Yong (who grew up with Buddhist culture before coming to Christ)in light of his background and recognizing the need for dialogue:

Other scholars who come to mind on the issue are Dr Vishal Mangalwadi (who was one of the most prominent Hindu/Buddhist scholars and gurus of the 20th/21st century before he began to study CHristianity and since then cross over...and author of the work "The Book that Made Your World: How the Bible Created the Soul of Western Civilization" and the work The World of Gurus: A Critical Look at the Philosophies of Gurus and Mystics...very insightful seeing his experiences/observations and the journey he has been on as have others)

).

Talking with many who were Buddhist (including others speaking with the Dali Lama) and seeing others see things play out in differing ways - from saying "Well look at the history of Christians being violent instead of peaceful like the Buddhists!" (When it came to saying Christianity was never the way to go because of others not following Christ) to realizing what other Buddhists/scholars have said when it comes to Buddhist doing the same thing/actually finding basis in Buddhism through Asian history (as Dr. Stephen Turnbull and others have noted best here or here with the Japanese Warrior Monks AD 949-1603 and many others in history, from
Sri Lanka's Violent Buddhists and
Myanmar's Buddhist or Col. Sugimoto Gorō and other instances which Buddhists have pointed out for accuracy...more in
"Buddhist Warfare": Is Buddhism A Religion of Peace?"
). To see others do more study and then slowing having more understanding, it's always fascinating to see their journey and how they interact with others still on that path - Also glad for inter-faith dialogue and ability to discuss with others, regardless of where they are at
http://religiondispatches.org/monks-with-guns-discovering-buddhist-violence/

My mindset has always been "Not all roads automatically lead to God - but God will meet you on any road".....and so for others truly seeking truth, they will run into God at some point - if they really are seeking.

Yoder777 · Jun 26, 2015

This is the vow of Amitabha Buddha to save all who come to him:

The text of the 18th vow of Amitabha Buddha, according to Infinite Life Sutra, reads:[1]
If, when I attain Buddhahood, sentient beings in the lands of the ten quarters who sincerely and joyfully entrust themselves to me, desire to be born in my land, and call my Name, even ten times, should not be born there, may I not attain perfect Enlightenment. Excluded, however, are those who commit the five gravest offences and abuse the right Dharma.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primal_Vow

This is clearly based on the Bodhisattva ideal of Mahayana Buddhism, that we are to attain Buddhahood for the sake of then leading all other beings to Buddhahood, not the Bible.

Amitabha is one of several Buddhas and Bodhisattvas that Mahayana Buddhists turn to for spiritual help, both inside and outside Pure Land Buddhism.

smaneck · Jun 26, 2015

Yoder777 said:
This is the vow of Amitabha Buddha to save all who come to him:

Thanks for posting that. Wiki indicates that the sutra was written between the first and second centuries in the Kushan Empire. So any supposed Christian influence must be shown to have occurred at or before that time, and in that place.

Gxg (G²) · Jun 26, 2015

Yoder777 said:
This is clearly based on the Bodhisattva ideal of Mahayana Buddhism, that we are to attain Buddhahood for the sake of then leading all other beings to Buddhahood, not the Bible.

.

Quoting a vow and showing where it lines up with a Bodhisattva ideal is not the same as saying that it is either not related to what was present with Nestorian Christians/Church of the East (who already preached the same thing in Asia) in the 2nd centuries or what the Bible says in influence when it comes to ideals of peace/enlightenment - since they were there before Amitabha Buddha, both in Central Asia and other parts of the Asian world. Chinese Pure Land Buddhism was founded by Hui-yuan (333-416), a zealous Taoist who came over to Buddhism. At times, it has been attempted by others not aware of the actual history of Pure Land Buddhism to claim things such as Infinite Life Sutra from which Amitabha's vow is derived to come from earlier periods - but there is no evidence of that whatsoever in history. It is true, of course, that some scholars believe that the Infinite Life Sūtrawas compiled in the age of the Kuṣāṇa Dynasty, in the first and second centuries CE, by an order of Mahīśāsaka bhikṣus, which flourished in the Gandhāra region - but others have noted the ways it has been influenced/highly similar to Christianity which preceded it. As another Buddhist noted, "

Sukhavati Vyuha, or Infinite Life Sutra is not unlike many Christian texts a matter of interest to Wayists even though it properly belongs to another tradition, Mahayana"

Concerning Hui, from Taoism he brought the concept of the way (tao) and that's why monks became known as "people of the way" - but from Nestorian Christianity which was very strong at that time came the concept of God as it concerns the notion of the Trinity...and the concept of a transcendent being became stronger as the movement grew. Studying things such as the Jesus Sutras gives a lot of insight on the ways that connections grew in the issue

This has already been noted by multiple Buddhists - and of course,

Dr. Palmer, who has interacted with many Buddhist, has noted this issue as said before:

It has often been noted by scholars in the field the extensive amount of
influence exerted by CHristians who influenced Buddhism that rose AFTER it - and what they said when noting plainly it arose BEFORE the Tang Dynasty. People ignoring that tend to do so because of a prior assumption/desire to not want to engage that - but as said before, There are many intersections on the issue which have already been covered, more seen in A Trinitarian Theology of Religions: An Evangelical Proposal ...

The CHristian faith was promoted a lot during the Tang Dynasty, but it was never the moment when Christianity arose. For Nestorian Christians had already arrived in in an official capacity before the Tang Court in 635 AD led by Alopen. ..with Nestorians in China also referenced in 579. And as it concerns the 2nd century Nestorian monk in China, other scholars such as John W. Denney noted the same thing - just as others have long noted Nestorian influences preceeding the arrival of Buddhist thought. For references:

Hidden Treasures and Intercultural Encounters. 2. Auflage: Studies on East Syriac Christianity in China and Central Asia
Transnationalism in Ancient and Medieval Societies: The Role of Cross-Border Trade and Travel by Michael Howard

Thus, if one doesn't wish to actually be in line with other Buddhist who note influence from other Christians, then the fact is that one doesn't really understand Buddhism in its ideals. Of course, there's also the reality of how even the ideals of Buddha were taken to mean completely different things than what others say were intended - as we can see in regards to what Buddhists/scholars have said when it comes to Buddhist being exceptionally violent in the name of achieving Buddhahood and having their actions based in Buddhism through Asian history (as Dr. Stephen Turnbull and others have noted best here or here with the Japanese Warrior Monks AD 949-1603 and many others in history, from Sri Lanka's Violent Buddhists and Myanmar's Buddhist or Col. Sugimoto Gorō and other instances which Buddhists have pointed out for accuracy...more in "Buddhist Warfare": Is Buddhism A Religion of Peace?"
).

So of course, from there, one can talk on who the real Buddhists are if trying to reference the Amitabha Buddha to others/seeing how folks interpreted it.

smaneck · Jun 27, 2015

Gxg (G²) said:
Quoting a vow and showing where it lines up with a Bodhisattva ideal is not the same as saying that it is either not related to what was present with Nestorian Christians/Church of the East (who already preached the same thing in Asia) in the 2nd centuries or what the Bible says in influence when it comes to ideals of peace/enlightenment - since they were there before Amitabha Buddha, both in Central Asia and other parts of the Asian world. Chinese Pure Land Buddhism was founded by Hui-yuan (333-416), a zealous Taoist who came over to Buddhism. From Taoism he brought the concept of the way (tao) and that's why monks became known as "people of the way" - but from Nestorian Christianity which was very strong at that time came the concept of God as it concerns the notion of the Trinity...and the concept of a transcendent being became stronger as the movement grew.

This has already been noted by multiple Buddhists - and of course,

Dr. Palmer, who has interacted with many Buddhist, has noted this issue as said before:

Thus, if one doesn't wish to actually be in line with other Buddhist who note influence from other Christians, then the fact is that one doesn't really understand Buddhism in its ideals. Of course, there's also the reality of how even the ideals of Buddha were taken to mean completely different things than what others say were intended - as we can see in regards to what Buddhists/scholars have said when it comes to Buddhist being exceptionally violent in the name of achieving Buddhahood and having their actions based in Buddhism through Asian history (as Dr. Stephen Turnbull and others have noted best here or here with the Japanese Warrior Monks AD 949-1603 and many others in history, from Sri Lanka's Violent Buddhists and Myanmar's Buddhist or Col. Sugimoto Gorō and other instances which Buddhists have pointed out for accuracy...more in "Buddhist Warfare": Is Buddhism A Religion of Peace?"
).

So of course, from there, one can talk on who the real Buddhists are if trying to reference the Amitabha Buddha to others/seeing how folks interpreted it.

smaneck · Jun 27, 2015

Gxg (G²) said:
Quoting a vow and showing where it lines up with a Bodhisattva ideal is not the same as saying that it is either not related to what was present with Nestorian Christians/Church of the East (who already preached the same thing in Asia) in the 2nd centuries or what the Bible says in influence when it comes to ideals of peace/enlightenment - since they were there before Amitabha Buddha, both in Central Asia and other parts of the Asian world.

Let me remind me that while you have produced some evidence that Jews might have been in China by the time of the Han Dynasty you have yet to produce any evidence that they were in the same parts of Central Asia as Buddhists prior to the Tang Dynasty.

Chinese Pure Land Buddhism was founded by Hui-yuan (333-416), a zealous Taoist who came over to Buddhism.

However the Infinite Life Sutra from which Amitabha's vow is derived comes from around 147 A.D.

From Taoism he brought the concept of the way (tao) and that's why monks became known as "people of the way" - but from Nestorian Christianity

Click to expand...

An assertion with no proof.

Thus, if one doesn't wish to actually be in line with other Buddhist who note influence from other Christians

We should be looking at evidence not opinions.

,

then the fact is that one doesn't really understand Buddhism in its ideals.

Gxg (G²) · Jun 27, 2015

ananda said:
On the other hand, (at least early) Buddhism perceives the universe in this fashion:

The "self" can either 1. look below & outwards for an external god, or 2.look upwards & inwards, progressing through the rupa and arupa jhanas until he reaches nibbana.

Most religions asks one to look for a god outside of or separate from one's self. Early Buddhism perceives the opposite.

It is only when the "self" realizes that he is truly "selfless" and transcends the self can he reach nibbana. He is selfless because he realizes that his "self" merely consists of entwined elements that are part of a lesser whole. It is a journey towards the innermost universes.

Forgot to ask earlier where you got the chart from which you used....was going to catalog it

One I appreciated for showing the differing levels and interactions on how things occur from the physical to the spiritual:

ananda · Jun 27, 2015

Gxg (G²) said:
Forgot to ask earlier where you got the chart from which you used....was going to catalog it

One I appreciated for showing the differing levels and interactions on how things occur from the physical to the spiritual:

Thanks for the charts!

The chart in my post was something I created, from my own understanding of reality.

El' LeJeune · Jun 27, 2015

This may be off topic, but I thought it was worth mentioning. It is true that Buddhism is not atheistic. There is a reverence within Buddhism that appeals to many people. While my knowledge of the faith is limited, I do believe that the noble eight fold path are excellent guiding principles. However, the main problem with Buddhism is excellent what the original poster praised. It rejects the idea of man's need for forgiveness. Eternal forgiveness is the single most important thing a person can receive. I would love to expand on this more, but unfortunately my daughter is crying. I do want to leave this though.

Jane_the_Bane · Jun 27, 2015

Buddhism knows the concept of hell(s), too, by the way. They're not quite the same as the (Reformed) Christian equivalent, which stands pretty much alone in its despicable gruesomeness, but they *are* genuinely hellish states of existence where those who have fallen furthest will spend a LONG time purging their karmic guilt in distinctly unpleasant ways.

smaneck · Jun 27, 2015

Not that much different. It just isn't eternal:

http://reimacram.blogspot.com/2013/08/japanese-buddhist-depiction-of-hell.html

jacknife · Jun 27, 2015

smaneck said:
Not that much different. It just isn't eternal:

http://reimacram.blogspot.com/2013/08/japanese-buddhist-depiction-of-hell.html

That artwork is awesome!

smaneck · Jun 27, 2015

jacknife said:
That artwork is awesome!

Just don't tell MehGuy about it. He'll enjoy it too much.

El' LeJeune · Jun 28, 2015

smaneck said:
Lovely. So Guatama Buddha who lived 500 years before Christ burns in hell according to this video because he doesn't believe in Christ who hadn't been born yet?

No. That's not what the account says. It says that he is condemned for "denying the eternal God"

The root of eternity lies in the forgiveness of our wrongdoings. Like a judge must uphold the law and condemn those who are guilty of breaking it, the creator God also upholds his laws and condemns those who break them. God offered forgiveness before the descent of Christ to the Earth. The rejection of God means the rejection of his forgiveness of our wrongdoings. Without forgiveness we condemn ourselves because of our wrongdoings.

I know a teaching of Buddhism is the general goodness of a person, but real life experience tells me that people are generally corrupt. The goodness that you see in most people are the result of social and psychological conditioning. A person's true nature is exposed when the chips are down. I was living near New Orleans when Katrina devastated the area and what I experienced was not a sense of overwhelming goodness. I witnessed corruption and volatility.

People, in general, are naturally corrupt. Society does not teach a child to lie, steal, cheat, or become violent; this is something that comes naturally. On the contrary, we have to teach our children to be kind, polite, and good. Man's innate corruption prevents us from being "good enough" to achieve salvation on our own. Good deeds do not gloss over wrongdoings. A judge will not pardon a thief because he donated money to a charity. The thief is still guilty of breaking the law and the judge will rule accordingly. We are not pardoned because of anything we can achieve on our own, instead we must seek God's forgiveness.

This is the reason for Buddha's condemnation. He rejected the creator God and thus his forgiveness.

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