British Airways' discrimination of Christians

[copticorthodoxy]

Yes , The copts are persecuted for 1400 years since the Arabs took our homeland .
here are a sample of violence cmmitted against copts
http://www.copts.net/registrar.asp

These are the Coptic demands
http://copts.com/english1/index.php/coptic-demands/

This photo for The 21 Martyrs Funeral of Al-Kosheh ( poor vilage in upper Egypt ) in 2000 AD

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

p.s (edited) Further evidence of persecution in the u ess aya is exposed by this post. You may have to copy the link below or get to it another way or it turns up "forbidden on this server" or something like that !

When I went to google and typed in keith green assassinated the above link did not come up on the first page so I hope that just reinforces for you that simply telling someone to look stuff up for themselves is not very useful.



I have not been able to find any credible source to confirm the story in the article. It certainly would not be the first time a false claim like this has been made by people who have later been found out to be fraudsters. So I can't consider the article to be proof of anything untill there is some credible evidence that it is true. I use this approach in all matters so I am not just dismissing this because it doesn't seem likely. If I come across any evidence to back this story up I will be more than happy to change my view.

how many years after knndy was assassineated did it take for the crdible evidence to surface ? I didn't see it until this last year.
Here's a link, at your request, for you, that shows the reason k.g. was(or maybe was) assassinated. Watch what others do to it. THat's why it may be better for others to search more for themselves to find about the persecution in u ess aya.
THE CATHOLIC CHRONICLES by Keith Green CATHOLIC CHRONICLE I One ...

In the following Catholic Chronicle we will look intently at the next direct result of transubstantiation in official Catholic systematic theology: "The ...
www.gracegems.org/7/catholic_chronicles.htm - 71k - Cached - Similar pages
((((((( added for same purpose as "Our Purpose"

GRACE GEMS!A Treasury of Ageless Sovereign
Grace Devotional Writings

Our Purpose
To humble the pride of man,
to exalt the grace of God in salvation
and to promote real holiness in heart and life.)))))))​

 

[TheDag]

Just so people know I am aware of persecution that happens in Egypt. However if you read my previous post you will notice I have already acknowledged that persecution does happen. As I said there is not total persecution. There are a number of "western" denominations in Egypt with established churches. When an organisation says they are a christian missionary organisation and wants to hold rallies and evangelisation events and have permission one would think the missionaries would be told to go jump especially with mostly muslims attending. I find it interesting that people are talking about copts as a race of people. We need to remember christianity is not inherited. The small amount of research that I have quickly done seems to suggest there are other issues for this persecution as well.

A quick read of the bible should tell us that God does not consider the coptic "demands" to be a priority. Persecution of christians is a fact of life and WILL GET WORSE.

 

[Anglian]

Just so people know I am aware of persecution that happens in Egypt. However if you read my previous post you will notice I have already acknowledged that persecution does happen. As I said there is not total persecution. There are a number of "western" denominations in Egypt with established churches. When an organisation says they are a christian missionary organisation and wants to hold rallies and evangelisation events and have permission one would think the missionaries would be told to go jump especially with mostly muslims attending.

Dear Dag,

I think we ought to respect the views of one who lives under the daily persecution Copticorthodoxy describes; westerners who visit or who have the support of powerful governments do not know the half of it.

Of course the Egyptian government will allow American evengelists to operate; in the first place Egypt gets a lot of aid from the US; in the second place, anything that weakens the Coptic Church is fine for the Muslims. The Protestant Churches have no roots in Egypt and those who convert are then eay prey for a second conversion - to Islam.

I find it interesting that people are talking about copts as a race of people. We need to remember christianity is not inherited. The small amount of research that I have quickly done seems to suggest there are other issues for this persecution as well.

The Copts are a race, and they are distinguished by their adherence to one of the oldest Christian Churches in the world. You acknowledge you have done a 'small amount of research'; take the words of those who have done a great deal; and certainly take that of one who lives there.

The facts are pretty clear. Before the Islamic invasion Egypt was a Christian country. Over the centuries persecution has reduced the number of Christians. The Muslims would dearly love to see no Christians at all in Egypt - a few western converts would be no real problem for them. A Church with the deepest roots is and always will be.

A quick read of the bible should tell us that God does not consider the coptic "demands" to be a priority. Persecution of christians is a fact of life and WILL GET WORSE.

A 'quick read of the Bible' will not reveal that it was in Egypt that the canon we use was first established by St. Athanasius; nor will it tell you that it was in Egypt that that blessed Saint stood against the whole world when the Arian heresy threatened to destroy the whole Church; not will it tell you that before there was a canon or a Bible, there was Christianity in the land where the Holy Family took refuge from the persecutions of Herod.

In short, there is much that a 'quick read of the Bible' will not tell you. The Coptic Orthodox Church rests upon the pillars of Scripture and Tradition. For a millenium and a half it has suffered the cruellest persecutions. Few western Churches are as old as the Coptic Church, and few would have survived its great sufferings. It is a Church built on the blood of the martyrs, and it needs no reminders from anyone that persecution is a fact of life; it suffers daily in a way no western Christian can imagine.

In peace,

Anglian

 

[TheDag]

Dear Dag,

I think we ought to respect the views of one who lives under the daily persecution Copticorthodoxy describes; westerners who visit or who have the support of powerful governments do not know the half of it.

Of course the Egyptian government will allow American evengelists to operate; in the first place Egypt gets a lot of aid from the US; in the second place, anything that weakens the Coptic Church is fine for the Muslims. The Protestant Churches have no roots in Egypt and those who convert are then eay prey for a second conversion - to Islam.



The Copts are a race, and they are distinguished by their adherence to one of the oldest Christian Churches in the world. You acknowledge you have done a 'small amount of research'; take the words of those who have done a great deal; and certainly take that of one who lives there.

The facts are pretty clear. Before the Islamic invasion Egypt was a Christian country. Over the centuries persecution has reduced the number of Christians. The Muslims would dearly love to see no Christians at all in Egypt - a few western converts would be no real problem for them. A Church with the deepest roots is and always will be.



A 'quick read of the Bible' will not reveal that it was in Egypt that the canon we use was first established by St. Athanasius; nor will it tell you that it was in Egypt that that blessed Saint stood against the whole world when the Arian heresy threatened to destroy the whole Church; not will it tell you that before there was a canon or a Bible, there was Christianity in the land where the Holy Family took refuge from the persecutions of Herod.

In short, there is much that a 'quick read of the Bible' will not tell you. The Coptic Orthodox Church rests upon the pillars of Scripture and Tradition. For a millenium and a half it has suffered the cruellest persecutions. Few western Churches are as old as the Coptic Church, and few would have survived its great sufferings. It is a Church built on the blood of the martyrs, and it needs no reminders from anyone that persecution is a fact of life; it suffers daily in a way no western Christian can imagine.

In peace,

Anglian

I'm not going to answer every point but rather just a couple of things you should note. Firstly do not presume that everyone comes from the US. The flag you display should tell you that. I have very little knowledge of what mission organisations from the US do. I do however have a good idea of what a few other countries do and some of which don't provide aid to Egypt. Rather I am talking about mission groups and teams from other countries. You seem to have ignored my point that I acknowledge persecution has been occouring. I also find it interesting how you seem to dismiss what the bible says because of what it doesn't say. That is not using scripture and tradition but rather placing tradition higher than scripture. Maybe you just phrased things poorly.

As far as western christians not understanding persecution well it depends on your definition of western christian. I know several people who would strongly disagree with your statement simply because they have been tortured and imprisoned for their faith some for very long periods of time. That should not be written off simply because they were born in a "western" country and eventually return there when they retire from mission work. I have also known "western" christians who have had friends killed and thought they were going to share the same fate because they were tricked into sharing the gospel with a person who was only there to catch them out. So don't be so quick to write it off. It is interesting that the speed at which you write off "western" christians experiences is much different to the view you seem to have taken with the British Airways staff member mentioned in the OP.

 

[Anglian]

Dear Dag,

I was not assuming that you were from the USA; just that most of the 'missionaries' in Egypt are from that country. It is actually a great insult for any Christian group to assume that they can 'convert' other Christians who are following the Faith as given to St. Mark from Our Lord Himself. These 'Evangelicals' don't convert Muslims - because if a Muslim in Egypt becomes a Christian he or she is immediately an apostate and is under sentence of death. If Americans, or any other Western Christians want to 'convert' anyone, they might useful visit the UK, which stands in sore need of missionary work!

I am far from dismissing the Bible. But there were Christians in Egypt before there was a Bible, and the first mention of the modern canon of Scripture was in Egypt in 365 A.D.. Scripture is not an instruction manual. Christ did not say: 'here is this book which will help you' - He founded a Church. We can see, from the Bible itself, how the Church fared before there was a canon of Scripture.

1Tim 3:15 "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

Why does Paul say that the pillar and ground of the truth is the Church and not scripture?

Mat 18:15-17 "But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican."

The blessed Saint does not say: 'read the Bible'. Indeed, throughout the ages, heretics have always cited the Bible - always without the context of the Church in which it developed. If Protestants had taken Tradition as well as the Bible they would have taken the fullness of the Faith; as it is they have taken only the Bible and therefore fail to have the fullness of the Faith given to the Church.

I was nowhere saying that Westerners do not suffer for the Faith; of course they do. But no western nation has suffered for as long and as intensely as the Copts. Western 'missionaries' with their imperialist notions of bringing the Faith to the Third Word, simply add to the plagues inflicted upon the Coptic Church. It bears them, as it has borne all its afflictions, with a humility and a courage that inspires great respect and affection from those of us who are aware of how daily life in the Coptic Church really is.

Copts remain second-class citizens at law in their own country. That is daily persecution which exists in no western or western-settled nation.

My initial point was that a Coptic Christian, which Nadia Eweida is, might well be more sensitised to discrimination against Christians than someone born and brought up in England, the USA and Australia. Where we all have apologies to make to those races we have mistreated (and your own new Government has set a wonderful example in this respect), those who have lived with imperialist discrimination (and the Muslims in Egypt came there are imperial conquerors) retain a lively sense of the importance of insisting on their rights.

In peace,

Anglian

 

[Disippelen]

Yep persecution is so blatent that Christians have been ablre to hold massive evangelism rallies in stadiums in Egypt and even have muslims give their full support to it. Sounds like nothing but persecution for christians in egypt! I'm not for a second saying it doesn't happen in Egypt. Yes christians are persecuted however it depends on exactly where you are. In some areas you can will have bars and can drink all the alcohol you like while in other areas you can't. We need to open our eyes and stop being so biased by insisting persecution is bad when it happens to us but ok if it happens to other people. We also need to stop being biased by trying to present a situation to be something it isn't. For example giving the impression that there is nothing but persecution for christians in some countries where they can actually have tremendous freedom in some areas.

Hi Dag.

I'm not at all defending it when other groups are persecuted. Where did you get that idea from? Persecution because of faith is bad where ever it happens and whom ever is targeted...

But I'm aware that some times and some places Christians aren't persecuted even in places where they usually are. But it is still a fact that countries like Egypt has immense persecution of Christians. The same can be said of about almost every Muslim majority nation or province in the world, and the same with communist conutries and even some Hindu and Buddhist areas.

You seem to be unaware of it. That's your problem, but there are lots of organizations and people who can testify about this. I understand that you don't like the idea about it, for some reason, but it doesn't change facts.


Disippelen

 

[Disippelen]

Just some technical details:

It happened that my last post (somewhat above of this) did not get positioned as the last one. I'm not sure about the reason for this, but I thought that I should note it just for convenience. I guess that this site has some technical issues.


And to add some more comments to what has been written by others.

I would also say, as the Copt and Anglian that Western people (Christians) in general know very little of persecution. I would also say that Western Christian in general experience very little persecution or hardships because of Christian faith. What people in Western countries such as the USA, Australia, UK or my country - Norway - face because of Christian faith is really NOTHING compared to what Copts and many others experience on a daily basis.

I'm so blessed to know both Coptic Christians, other traditional Christians in modern-non-Christian areas of the world, as well as many converts to Christianity (from Islam and other faiths). And all these people testify to me about the immense hardships they face being Christians. It is already hard to convince Western Christians of the realities of martyrdom in the Third world. I get dissappointed with you Dag when you try to downplay the significant persecution that takes place just because some Americans are doing missions in Egypt. (Egypt is the second biggest reciever of American aid in the world)

From my own experience, and through the Evangelically based organizations that I support, these Evangelicals support the Copts in Egypt (and similar churches elsewhere). We don't intentionally target other Christians for conversion. Those missionaries I know of rather work to help the local churches and target Muslims (and other non-Christians) for conversion. I respect Christians of the historical denominations, and I want to cooperate with them in our common cause of bringing the gospel to the Muslims etc.


Dis

 

[Anglian]

Dear Dis,

Thank you for your words of support - and for your efforts.

Yes, of course, there are some Evangelicals who are culturally sensitive and do, indeed, do great work in helping those who live under the shadow of persecution, and if my words failed to acknowledge that then I am sorry for it; a heart full of sorrow sometimes makes one write without nuance.

You, and those who work as you do, do the word of the Lord and deserve our support and prayers.

In peace,

Anglian

 

[TheDag]

Just some technical details:

It happened that my last post (somewhat above of this) did not get positioned as the last one. I'm not sure about the reason for this, but I thought that I should note it just for convenience. I guess that this site has some technical issues.


And to add some more comments to what has been written by others.

I would also say, as the Copt and Anglian that Western people (Christians) in general know very little of persecution. I would also say that Western Christian in general experience very little persecution or hardships because of Christian faith. What people in Western countries such as the USA, Australia, UK or my country - Norway - face because of Christian faith is really NOTHING compared to what Copts and many others experience on a daily basis.

I'm so blessed to know both Coptic Christians, other traditional Christians in modern-non-Christian areas of the world, as well as many converts to Christianity (from Islam and other faiths). And all these people testify to me about the immense hardships they face being Christians. It is already hard to convince Western Christians of the realities of martyrdom in the Third world. I get dissappointed with you Dag when you try to downplay the significant persecution that takes place just because some Americans are doing missions in Egypt. (Egypt is the second biggest reciever of American aid in the world)

From my own experience, and through the Evangelically based organizations that I support, these Evangelicals support the Copts in Egypt (and similar churches elsewhere). We don't intentionally target other Christians for conversion. Those missionaries I know of rather work to help the local churches and target Muslims (and other non-Christians) for conversion. I respect Christians of the historical denominations, and I want to cooperate with them in our common cause of bringing the gospel to the Muslims etc.

If you want to be dissapointed in me then feel free however only do so if your disappointment is BASED IN FACT unlike what you have said here. So much about what you claim to be my views here I have already said is not the case and you also make assumptions about my views despite my having said nothing about them.

 

[TheDag]

Dear Dag,

I was not assuming that you were from the USA; just that most of the 'missionaries' in Egypt are from that country. It is actually a great insult for any Christian group to assume that they can 'convert' other Christians who are following the Faith as given to St. Mark from Our Lord Himself. These 'Evangelicals' don't convert Muslims - because if a Muslim in Egypt becomes a Christian he or she is immediately an apostate and is under sentence of death. If Americans, or any other Western Christians want to 'convert' anyone, they might useful visit the UK, which stands in sore need of missionary work!

I am far from dismissing the Bible. But there were Christians in Egypt before there was a Bible, and the first mention of the modern canon of Scripture was in Egypt in 365 A.D.. Scripture is not an instruction manual. Christ did not say: 'here is this book which will help you' - He founded a Church. We can see, from the Bible itself, how the Church fared before there was a canon of Scripture.


Why does Paul say that the pillar and ground of the truth is the Church and not scripture?



The blessed Saint does not say: 'read the Bible'. Indeed, throughout the ages, heretics have always cited the Bible - always without the context of the Church in which it developed. If Protestants had taken Tradition as well as the Bible they would have taken the fullness of the Faith; as it is they have taken only the Bible and therefore fail to have the fullness of the Faith given to the Church.

I was nowhere saying that Westerners do not suffer for the Faith; of course they do. But no western nation has suffered for as long and as intensely as the Copts. Western 'missionaries' with their imperialist notions of bringing the Faith to the Third Word, simply add to the plagues inflicted upon the Coptic Church. It bears them, as it has borne all its afflictions, with a humility and a courage that inspires great respect and affection from those of us who are aware of how daily life in the Coptic Church really is.

Copts remain second-class citizens at law in their own country. That is daily persecution which exists in no western or western-settled nation.

My initial point was that a Coptic Christian, which Nadia Eweida is, might well be more sensitised to discrimination against Christians than someone born and brought up in England, the USA and Australia. Where we all have apologies to make to those races we have mistreated (and your own new Government has set a wonderful example in this respect), those who have lived with imperialist discrimination (and the Muslims in Egypt came there are imperial conquerors) retain a lively sense of the importance of insisting on their rights.

Near the begining of your post you say you aren't dismissing scripture and then you provide a couple of verses and in reference to the part of your post I underlined where you had just quoted matt 18 you emphasise that it does not say read your bible. Of course it doesn't. To do so would make no sense in the context to what the instruction is about. However let me ask how do you know you have been wronged by your brother in the first place. One obviously does not just say well I reckon I'm right so they must be wrong do they? Certainly not! Rather one uses scripture and tradition. Just for the record how you have explained the belief of protestant churches only applies to a small amount (like 1 or 2) of protestant groups. It is not uncommon I find that many don't understand Sola Scripture if they do not follow it. If you wish for an explanation I will be happy to discuuss with you via pm.

Also you seem to be heading in the direction of turning this into a protestant vs orthodox/catholic debate. I have no intention or desire to do that. i hope you also share that desire.

 

[Anglian]

Dear Dag,

You're wuite right, I don't want to turn it into a Protestant/Orthodox thing. My basic contention was that Coptic Orthodox are very sensitive to persecution - having had a lot of it.

In peace,

Anglian

 

[Disippelen]

If you want to be dissapointed in me then feel free however only do so if your disappointment is BASED IN FACT unlike what you have said here. So much about what you claim to be my views here I have already said is not the case and you also make assumptions about my views despite my having said nothing about them.

Ok Dag. I know that you haven't denied all persecution, but I reacted to how you ridiculed my (and other's) claims on persecution with reference to that Christians someplaces and some times are free to share... I think that although these may be facts, they are not significant enough in the big picture to allow us to overlook far bigger aspects such as the violent persecution of Christians in the said country. It is solely this that I react to.

I agree with you that we should be fair to the authorities in confirming the good things they do, but allowing some preaching by certain organizations (no doubt partly accepted thanks to the fact of American aid) doesn't justify the murder of thousands of people. Thousands of converts have been murdered the last years. In addition there has been numerous attacks, murders etc. on Copts as well as forceconversions and abductions.

So, sorry that I didn't make this clear to you earlier.


Dis

 

[TheDag]

Ok Dag. I know that you haven't denied all persecution, but I reacted to how you ridiculed my (and other's) claims on persecution with reference to that Christians someplaces and some times are free to share... I think that although these may be facts, they are not significant enough in the big picture to allow us to overlook far bigger aspects such as the violent persecution of Christians in the said country. It is solely this that I react to.

I agree with you that we should be fair to the authorities in confirming the good things they do, but allowing some preaching by certain organizations (no doubt partly accepted thanks to the fact of American aid) doesn't justify the murder of thousands of people. Thousands of converts have been murdered the last years. In addition there has been numerous attacks, murders etc. on Copts as well as forceconversions and abductions.

So, sorry that I didn't make this clear to you earlier.


Dis

We also need to look at all the reasons for the persecution. As I previously said I have not done much research but what I have done suggests that persecution of the copts is not just based on religion. So what are the other reasons is another question that needs to be addressed.

 

[Anglian]

We also need to look at all the reasons for the persecution. As I previously said I have not done much research but what I have done suggests that persecution of the copts is not just based on religion. So what are the other reasons is another question that needs to be addressed.

Dear Dag,

Some of us have done a lot of research; some have lived there; some even still live there and have done so all their lives, and hold the view that the discrimination is based on religion.

If you have evidence this is not so from your own research it would be a useful contribution to discussion; it would also be interesting to know what your research shows the discrimination is based on.

In peace,

Anglian