Bridging the divide

[ArmyMatt]

In my experience of the Anglican Church (which may not be the same as yours) you could be a complete heretic and still remain an Anglican in good standing. There is absolutely no guarding of the chalice (for the sake of those who would be communing unworthily) so it seems to me that there is no real belief that the bread and wine become Christ's body and blood. If there was, they would be a lot more careful about who they allowed to receive.

yep, John Shelby Spong denies the Incarnation, the Resurrection, thinks St Paul was a sexist homophobe, and was never defrocked or deposed. in fact, many Anglicans, to include folks I know from when I grew up, think he is a necessary voice for the "modern" Church.

 

[MKJ]

In my experience of the Anglican Church (which may not be the same as yours) you could be a complete heretic and still remain an Anglican in good standing. There is absolutely no guarding of the chalice (for the sake of those who would be communing unworthily) so it seems to me that there is no real belief that the bread and wine become Christ's body and blood. If there was, they would be a lot more careful about who they allowed to receive.

I think I can say, objectively, that you are wrong that there is no belief that the bread and wine become Christ's Body and Blood. There are many Anglicans that believe that. There are some that don't as well, and I know that can and does lead to inappropriate treatment of the elements at times. That is not a universal though.

I would say that the reasons for a different attitude to guarding the chalice come from other ideas. Part I would say is a feeling among many that God is not in need of their protection - I have heard many people express that view.

If you think about it, the attitude and practice is not actually all that different than in many Cathoic parishes. They do practice closed communion, but in fact I or you could present ourselves for communion and we would not likely be questioned or denied. The presumption is that we have heard the announcement on who is welcome or read it in the leaflet, and we are then responsible to follow that guide.

And most Anglican parishes have similar announcement - they say something like people who are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and in good standing in their own churches, can commune. The expectation is that visitors will follow that guide.

While it may be that neither practice is ideal, I don't think anyone would accuse the Romans of not believing the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ.

 

[MKJ]

yep, John Shelby Spong denies the Incarnation, the Resurrection, thinks St Paul was a sexist homophobe, and was never defrocked or deposed. in fact, many Anglicans, to include folks I know from when I grew up, think he is a necessary voice for the "modern" Church.

I would say he is increasingly irrelevant. Too many of the things he predicted have not come to pass. He was big on the idea that radical liberalization would bring massive converts, and of course it didn't. It is hard even for those who might be inclined that way to miss that. And his theology is going out of style, as peculiar as that may sound. He appeals to baby boomers.

There are also many Anglicans who don't even consider him a Christian, and think he should have been defrocked years ago.

He's probably a good example of a particular sort of problem (the Episcopals not getting rid of heretical bishops), but not a good example of a typical perspective.

 

[MKJ]

Hi everybody, I'm Nathan and I'm Anglican... I've always been fascinated by the traditional Orthodox beliefs. I wanted to know is there some kind of dialogue between Anglican/Catholic and Orthodox ongoing?

There are some groups dedicated to discussion. The Fellowship of St Alban and St Sergius is an example. They have some interesting publications.

 

[prodromos]

I would say that the reasons for a different attitude to guarding the chalice come from other ideas. Part I would say is a feeling among many that God is not in need of their protection - I have heard many people express that view.

The chalice is not guarded to protect God from sinful people, but rather to protect sinful people from God. You do realise (or perhaps you don't), that only those Orthodox who have properly prepared themselves are allowed to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodox Church.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I would say he is increasingly irrelevant. Too many of the things he predicted have not come to pass. He was big on the idea that radical liberalization would bring massive converts, and of course it didn't. It is hard even for those who might be inclined that way to miss that. And his theology is going out of style, as peculiar as that may sound. He appeals to baby boomers.

There are also many Anglicans who don't even consider him a Christian, and think he should have been defrocked years ago.

He's probably a good example of a particular sort of problem (the Episcopals not getting rid of heretical bishops), but not a good example of a typical perspective.

the point was that he was not defrocked. and you could also say Rowan Williams, Gene Robinson, Schori or any of the many Anglican clergy who espouse anti-Christian teaching, and yet remain in the Anglican Church. it's not just the fringe and irrelevant weirdos anymore

 

[MKJ]

The chalice is not guarded to protect God from sinful people, but rather to protect sinful people from God. You do realise (or perhaps you don't), that only those Orthodox who have properly prepared themselves are allowed to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodox Church.

Yes, I do in fact realize both of those things, but how is it that really related to what was said?

Which was that your reasoning was not in fact the case. The reason that the chalice is not guarded in the same way among Anglicans is not because they do not believe in the Real Presence. Many do, in fact, believe in the Real Presence.

As far as I can tell, the reason, from the perspective of the average member of the laity, is the one I gave. I am not sure it would apply to the leadership.

Would you say the Romans do not believe in the Real Presence? And they too are supposed to prepare themselves to commune in much the same way as the Orthodox. And yet they also will generally commune anyone who presents himself, and expect people to abide by the guidelines of their own volition.

I am curious though - in the really big Orthodox parishes, how do the priests keep track of who is a properly prepared member?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I agree completely. The fact that a wild maniac with heretical insane beliefs was allowed to continue in that huge capacity with so much power, it's nuts. And I rarely disagree with Meghan (MKJ), but I have to say that MANY liberal Episcopalians across the U.S. adore the man and still espouse his tripe. They don't disavow the guy at all! Presiding Bishop Schiori thinks the man is incredible....

the point was that he was not defrocked. and you could also say Rowan Williams, Gene Robinson, Schori or any of the many Anglican clergy who espouse anti-Christian teaching, and yet remain in the Anglican Church. it's not just the fringe and irrelevant weirdos anymore

 

[MKJ]

the point was that he was not defrocked. and you could also say Rowan Williams, Gene Robinson, Schori or any of the many Anglican clergy who espouse anti-Christian teaching, and yet remain in the Anglican Church. it's not just the fringe and irrelevant weirdos anymore

That he was not defrocked is a serious problem. It is worst in the Episcopal Church, and bad among the Canadians. You'll notice that all your names are American clergy. The CofE has somewhat different issues.

The Episcopal Church is the fringe to a large extent. And its probably worst in the leadership. Which is why people keep leaving - they stay until their own diocese or parish is affected, then they leave.

My comment was directed to the idea that Spong is "a necessary voice in the church". Taken alone it could give rather the wrong impression - you could equally say that "many think Spong is an example of why there need to be serious changes in TEC or the way the AC deals with TEC" or something similar to that.

That is, his ideas and leadership are seriously controversial. If you go over to STR and bring him up, someone will inevitably say he isn't actually a Christian at all. Even those who might be less unequivocal tend to be rather lukewarm about it.

 

[MKJ]

I agree completely. The fact that a wild maniac with heretical insane beliefs was allowed to continue in that huge capacity with so much power, it's nuts. And I rarely disagree with Meghan (MKJ), but I have to say that MANY liberal Episcopalians across the U.S. adore the man and still espouse his tripe. They don't disavow the guy at all! Presiding Bishop Schiori thinks the man is incredible....

Lots of middle aged ladies. (I'm not sure what the appeal is there. I don't really like to contemplate it too carefully.)

Younger people, in general, who think what he does, don't become or remain Anglican.

The Spong/Schiori types, if they remain prominent, will ultimatly preside over something akin to the UU. A nice, rather small, social group with an interest in social justice. Or, something better will appear and they'll rebuild on better foundations. I can't see a lot of other outcomes.

 

[Lukaris]

I have an Episcopal BCP 1928 ed. & it is often very Orthodox & I use portions of it alongside my pocket Antiochian prayer book. If the Anglican communion were still reflective of the faith conveyed (minus portions of the 39 articles) at this point, there could much to talk about with Orthodox clerics (their own ability lack of ability notwithstanding).

Unfortunately, since the 1970s the divergence is too great. I know an elderly Syrian American Episcopal old school priest who told me that he was the only priest in a room who opposed the ordination of women in the 1970s when questioned. He was basically told in condescending terms, "well we understand, you are a product of your culture." He is a tradtional, mild mannered, & most understanding individual & did not let this ignorance bother him. Still, this seems to be indicative of a red flag to not have much hope in trying to "build bridges' ever again. I also remember a condescending opinion made by the Episcopal hierarchy towards a tradtional Anglican African bishop.

There is much of Anglicanism I truly admire & have attended Evensong at St. David's cathedral in Wales & Exeter, England; regrettably, there is little to hope for though.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That he was not defrocked is a serious problem. It is worst in the Episcopal Church, and bad among the Canadians. You'll notice that all your names are American clergy. The CofE has somewhat different issues.

The Episcopal Church is the fringe to a large extent. And its probably worst in the leadership. Which is why people keep leaving - they stay until their own diocese or parish is affected, then they leave.

My comment was directed to the idea that Spong is "a necessary voice in the church". Taken alone it could give rather the wrong impression - you could equally say that "many think Spong is an example of why there need to be serious changes in TEC or the way the AC deals with TEC" or something similar to that.

That is, his ideas and leadership are seriously controversial. If you go over to STR and bring him up, someone will inevitably say he isn't actually a Christian at all. Even those who might be less unequivocal tend to be rather lukewarm about it.

I also mentioned Rowan Williams, who is Welsh, and participated in Druidic ceremonies because of his Welsh heritage. sorry, but just because I am proud of my Welsh heritage (which I am), I am gonna avoid any Druidic anything. and there is something terribly amiss to remain in communion with folks that are so theologically off.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

Do you think this guy would be close to Orthodox?

That's an easy target. I think you know better Gurney than to consider Benny Hinn as a fair representative of typical evangelicalism. I hope that wasn't your point.

 

[D+C]

For those of my own persuasion who remain in the Church of England I recommend this article, although clearly I opted for option C, Orthodoxy.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place | Father Ed Tomlinson's Blog

Poor old Anglo-Catholics- they really do need our prayers. That became obvious when I read the most recent statement of Forward in Faith. Long gone is the historic and principled call for ”Corporate Solutions”- the talk of “Coming Home”- instead those who remain must find consolation in muddled statements like this. The clear acceptance of a congregational existence on the margins of a protestant church. It is sad because we are speaking of some very decent and able people with much to offer the Lord.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I also remember seeing an anti ecumenism vid from Australia, where the Anglican Church there used Aboriginal prayers to "bless" the Gospel book. it's pretty rampant and getting worse it seems every year.

 

[buzuxi]

I also mentioned Rowan Williams, who is Welsh, and participated in Druidic ceremonies because of his Welsh heritage. sorry, but just because I am proud of my Welsh heritage (which I am), I am gonna avoid any Druidic anything. and there is something terribly amiss to remain in communion with folks that are so theologically off.

I'm the same way. Personally I wish they would ban the Olympics. A pagan festival that was banned by a Christian emperor and once again revived as a pagan festival. Granted the entire mock pagan reenactment ceremony that opens the games is a prophetic foreshadowing of the incarnation by a virgin maiden in which the holy Light is passed onto to all nations, but lets not ruin it for the elites.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I'm the same way. Personally I wish they would ban the Olympics. A pagan festival that was banned by a Christian emperor and once again revived as a pagan festival. Granted the entire mock pagan reenactment ceremony that opens the games is a prophetic foreshadowing of the incarnation by a virgin maiden in which the holy Light is passed onto to all nations, but lets not ruin it for the elites.

Wow. Really? We're on the games now?

 

[buzuxi]

The romanticizing of paganism is just one factor. The corrupt immoral IOC committee would be another. The fact that the Olympic village is simply a giant brothel and most cities are financially ruined after the games would be other factors.

 

[Gnarwhal]

London seems to be doing just fine...

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm the same way. Personally I wish they would ban the Olympics. A pagan festival that was banned by a Christian emperor and once again revived as a pagan festival. Granted the entire mock pagan reenactment ceremony that opens the games is a prophetic foreshadowing of the incarnation by a virgin maiden in which the holy Light is passed onto to all nations, but lets not ruin it for the elites.

I don't think I would go that far. let's keep on the topic of Anglicanism