Bridging the divide

[NathanFZ]

Hi everybody, I'm Nathan and I'm Anglican... I've always been fascinated by the traditional Orthodox beliefs. I wanted to know is there some kind of dialogue between Anglican/Catholic and Orthodox ongoing?

 

[buzuxi]

Theres dialogues between Orthodox and roman catholic. There used to be dialogues with the Anglicans but no more.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Hi everybody, I'm Nathan and I'm Anglican... I've always been fascinated by the traditional Orthodox beliefs. I wanted to know is there some kind of dialogue between Anglican/Catholic and Orthodox ongoing?

I could be wrong but I think those dialogues were much stronger and more frequent in the early/mid-twentieth century but I think after the 70's they gap became larger. I'm sure there's still some level of communication and charity between the two but not likely in an ecumenical nature.

 

[rusmeister]

Ordination of women's priests really stoved in the ecumenical boat. CS Lewis's essay on them must now be highly unpopular among a large percentage of the Anglican faithful.
I think the best Anglo-Catholics are in the position where Newman was 175 years ago, with the difference that now the Orthodox Church is visible on their radar screens.

 

[Ann_of_Love]

There is dialogue of some sort! A priest at a local Episcopalian church said he was a member of some sort of Orthodox-Anglican Dialogue society. I mean, pretty obviously we're not going to start sharing communion or anything, but he gave me a website (which I forget) and it looked pretty legit.

You might like this: http://anglicanhistory.org/orthodoxy/index.html . It's a website with a bunch of historical documents on dialogue between our churches.

For the record, I don't think that means that we can't be friends. My best friend and boyfriend are Orthodox, and I'm Anglican. We get along well, have great talks, and we certainly have more in common than either of us would with Pentecostals.

At one of the local Episcopal churches, a friendly neighborhood Orthodox priest came in to talk about what Orthodox believe about Angels - the next year he came in to talk about demons. When a new Episcopal priest came to another church, the Orthodox priest was literally the first priest in the area to welcome him.

Sure, there's a lot different, but we have some similarities. I'm sure your local Orthodox church would not mind if you popped in for a visit.

I also find that the people here on TAW are super friendly. MKJ hangs out here a lot, too.

 

[ArmyMatt]

there are dialogues, but as others have pointed out they are not that frequent. Metropolitan Jonah had some discussions with the Anglican Communion, and what he said was loved by the more traditional, but not well recieved by the more modernist. but they do still happen.

 

[Mariya116]

Hi everybody, I'm Nathan and I'm Anglican... I've always been fascinated by the traditional Orthodox beliefs. I wanted to know is there some kind of dialogue between Anglican/Catholic and Orthodox ongoing?

So far on the cell level... Both Churches pray for the unity of all / Union of God's Church during liturgy. An Orthodox is invited to commune at the Anglican Church... an Anglican at the Orthodox Church - no. :-(

 

[buzuxi]

Outside of the traditional apostolic churches (EO,RC,OO, Assyrians), the others don't have much in common with Orthodoxy. Today Orthodoxy has more in common with the Evangelicals than the Lutherans.

 

[rusmeister]

So far on the cell level... Both Churches pray for the unity of all / Union of God's Church during liturgy. An Orthodox is invited to commune at the Anglican Church... an Anglican at the Orthodox Church - no. :-(

And you think we are wrong not to?

The desire for all to be one is good. Christ prayed for it. But we can't have that level of communion if we don't believe the same things. We have to give up whatever we WANT to believe and accept the complete Truth, which cannot possibly please us in everything.

It does seem generous that other confessions invite all to their Communion tables. But communion is far more than merely about being generous (which we SHOULD want to be, of course). It is about being of one heart and one mind in one Body.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Today Orthodoxy has more in common with the Evangelicals than the Lutherans.

As an evangelical who's been to a few Orthodox services, I think that may be a stretch.

 

[buzuxi]

Well, both Orthodox and evangelicals, believe in the virgin birth as a revealed dogmatic truth. Absolutely no protestant liturgical church believes this. I'm a few weeks away from being a registered member on TAW for 10 years and today Orthodoxy is definately fundamentalist in the eyes of all protestant liturgical churches. Not one views the virgin birth as factually revealed truth but as an optional belief that's fading away towards an allegory.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Well, both Orthodox and evangelicals, believe in the virgin birth as a revealed dogmatic truth. Absolutely no protestant liturgical church believes this. I'm a few weeks away from being a registered member on TAW for 10 years and today Orthodoxy is definately fundamentalist in the eyes of all protestant liturgical churches. Not one views the virgin birth as factually revealed truth but as an optional belief that's fading away towards an allegory.

I'm sorry I just don't understand this. I've been to Orthodox, Catholic, Presbyterian, Continuing Anglican and Episcopalian churches and I belonged to an evangelical church for over 20 years, and from where I sat the mainline/liturgical Protestant churches more closely affirmed the virgin birth than any evangelical church I've been to.

Now is there a certain aspect of the virgin birth that you're referring to? Because I've yet to go to a church that was liberal enough to flat-out reject the entirety of the doctrine of the virgin birth. I admit that there are some who at least call into question, if not deny, certain parts that are affirmed by Orthodoxy and Catholicism, like perhaps Mary's ever-virginity. I went to a Continuing Anglican parish that was part of the Anglican Province of Christ the King, and after a lengthy and enlightening discussion with the rector he said they were essentially Western Orthodox. Now I know that's a null statement here in TAW because they aren't a part of the Antiochian Church or any other jurisdiction, but the sentiment to me said that they at least find themselves in agreement with Orthodox theology.

 

[buzuxi]

Segments still retain traditional teaching, but when an Anglican and Lutheran bishop says it's optional belief then they affirm that their church doesn't really know the truth. I'm sure you've heard of elements in every protestant liturgical church question various essentials and promote allegoric interpretations to such things as the virgin birth and the resurrection.
You won't find this in evangelical or pentecostal sects. In 2013, whether they be Anglican, Lutheran, old Catholic, or Presbyterian, we are fundamentalists to them.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Segments still retain traditional teaching, but when an Anglican and Lutheran bishop says it's optional belief then they affirm that their church doesn't really know the truth. I'm sure you've heard of elements in every protestant liturgical church question various essentials and promote allegoric interpretations to such things as the virgin birth and the resurrection.
You won't find this in evangelical or pentecostal sects. In 2013, whether they be Anglican, Lutheran, old Catholic, or Presbyterian, we are fundamentalists to them.

Eh you're not too far off. I can't speak for Lutheranism at all, I know next to nothing about that. As far as Anglicanism goes is the bishop you're referring to John Shelby Spong? Because the consensus amongst Anglicans/Episcopalians seems to be that Spong doesn't speak for Anglicanism at all, and while he was never defrocked he definitely stands apart as far as doctrine goes.

Evangelicalism, while they may keep certain doctrines (to a less orthodox degree, I might add), on the whole they are about as far from orthodox theology as it comes and I'm speaking as a life long evangelical here. Their sacramental theology is non-existent, Mary is relegated to some kind of symbolic conduit and their soteriology (once saved, always saved) gives rise to antinomianism.

So, I'm not trying to say that you're wrong per se, just that I think you may be a little too generous in your opinion of evangelicalism and how close to orthodoxy it might be. At least in a general sense. There are evangelicals whom I think are closer than others, like Rick Warren, but then you have schmucks like Joel Osteen and Mark Driscoll who both under the same evangelical umbrella.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Do you think this guy would be close to Orthodox?

Eh you're not too far off. I can't speak for Lutheranism at all, I know next to nothing about that. As far as Anglicanism goes is the bishop you're referring to John Shelby Spong? Because the consensus amongst Anglicans/Episcopalians seems to be that Spong doesn't speak for Anglicanism at all, and while he was never defrocked he definitely stands apart as far as doctrine goes.

Evangelicalism, while they may keep certain doctrines (to a less orthodox degree, I might add), on the whole they are about as far from orthodox theology as it comes and I'm speaking as a life long evangelical here. Their sacramental theology is non-existent, Mary is relegated to some kind of symbolic conduit and their soteriology (once saved, always saved) gives rise to antinomianism.

So, I'm not trying to say that you're wrong per se, just that I think you may be a little too generous in your opinion of evangelicalism and how close to orthodoxy it might be. At least in a general sense. There are evangelicals whom I think are closer than others, like Rick Warren, but then you have schmucks like Joel Osteen and Mark Driscoll who both under the same evangelical umbrella.

 

[prodromos]

So far on the cell level... Both Churches pray for the unity of all / Union of God's Church during liturgy. An Orthodox is invited to commune at the Anglican Church... an Anglican at the Orthodox Church - no. :-(

In my experience of the Anglican Church (which may not be the same as yours) you could be a complete heretic and still remain an Anglican in good standing. There is absolutely no guarding of the chalice (for the sake of those who would be communing unworthily) so it seems to me that there is no real belief that the bread and wine become Christ's body and blood. If there was, they would be a lot more careful about who they allowed to receive.

 

[Mariya116]

I'm not very familiar with the Anglican Church theology-wise, I just grew attached to a particular parish which happens to be on the very traditional side of things. I think it's a New York City feature - we have several of these historic Anglo-Catholic churches where you feel like you've stepped into the fifteenth century, with Gregorian chant in Latin, all ceremoniousness scrupulously observed, and liturgical music that makes people travel far to hear. Mine is one of those.

So as an outsider who has no knowledge and as an Orthodox Christian used to the fact that Communion requires thorough preparation, I am somewhat unsettled by the fact that no formal preparation is required for communion. This is actually the reason I decided not to commune at this parish - I do not want to become too relaxed about it. At the same time, I think it is up to each individual congregant to take care to prepare and try to take communion worthily - because of each of us as sinful humans, it will be unworthy. I guess the Anglican Church leaves more to your own self-discipline. For one, the no food and drink from midnight requirement in the Orthodox Church is a big problem for me and for many other people. For those of us who have to drive a distance to the service, no food or drink all morning is not the safest thing to do. I haven't communed in an Orthodox Church in years because I need coffee if I'm going to drive and be alert on these highways.

 

[buzuxi]

Do you think this guy would be close to Orthodox?

Lol, nah he's just an apostate heretic. But I never heard him question the literal belief in a virgin birth or resurrection as the liberal liturgical churches do. Who was the Swedish? Lutheran bishop who said the virgin birth was an optional belief a few weeks ago?

 

[Gnarwhal]

Do you think this guy would be close to Orthodox?

He was cradle Greek Orthodox right? He's anything BUT orthodox now.

 

[prodromos]

He was cradle Greek Orthodox right? He's anything BUT orthodox now.

Palestinian Orthodox, and correct, not any more.