Breaking the commandments

[gadar perets]

When Steve says, "Yeah, God hates ritual" isn't he referring to additional man made religious add-on "rituals" ... whether they be found within Christendom or Rabbinic Judaism?

I got the impression Steve was being sarcastic.

 

[gadar perets]

However, do you not agree that they are closely related?

Yes.

others specify how to apply, for example, the first of the "ten commandments" in terms of rituals for worship. There are other rituals of course.

I don't see any ritual in the first commandment, if that is what you are saying.

 

[CherubRam]

Jesus = Jehoshua = Yeshua = Jehovah/Yahweh is Salvation

Matthew 1:21 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

21 and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins.'

Jesus: The English form "Jesus" was not seen nor spoken until AFTER the year 1525...

when Sir William Tyndale -A Protestant Reformer from Oxford, England - INVENTED IT!

 

[visionary]

Assume you may be thinking of the 4th Commandment as more of an example of a God ordained "Ritual". Ritual commands as ordained by God were of Paramount Importance to the well-being of Israel. Then with the so-called advancement of Rabbinic Judaism and Christendom the word "ritual" took on new meaning as suspect (being man made) without certain Biblical proof.

When Steve says, "Yeah, God hates ritual" isn't he referring to additional man made religious add-on "rituals" ... whether they be found within Christendom or Rabbinic Judaism?

To me nothing of God's is a ritual, only man made dictates of "how" are.

 

[Meowzltov]

To me nothing of God's is a ritual, only man made dictates of "how" are.

So do you believe that Messianics have to go by ritual purification laws? Not wanting to argue, just curious.

 

[visionary]

So do you believe that Messianics have to go by ritual purification laws? Not wanting to argue, just curious.

No because they are not found in the TEN. But they should because God is wiser and there is a blessing in the obedience to the 613 where applicable. There is wise Godly guidance in the purification laws, the dietary laws, the rules of engagement, the social responsibilities, etc etc etc. Those who meditate upon them and are guided by them in determining how to live according to His Word will benefit. But to follow them by rout ritualism gain nothing.

Knew a gentle farmer who did the seven year rest for his fields. He was blessed so much that his neighbors came by to see it and try to understand how it was possible. Rain would fall just on his property, he planted according to his understanding of what God wanted. He was blessed in miracles like perfect timing for rain, protection of crops, greater yield, and the choosing of the right crop to grow in the spring for the best fall prices to sell. All because he obeyed the laws of land resting every seven years.

Now did he follow other laws of God with this same principle and dedication. Not that he mentioned. He was a Sabbath Keeper, I do know. I found his spirit and principles that he lived by to be very humble and caring.

 

[pat34lee]

So do you believe that Messianics have to go by ritual purification laws? Not wanting to argue, just curious.

Since God never changes, his commands should never change, should they? Unless you think we are somehow better or holier than everyone from Adam to the disciples of Yeshua? Even Yeshua himself said he could do nothing unless the Father told him to do it.

 

[Meowzltov]

No because they are not found in the TEN. But they should because God is wiser and there is a blessing in the obedience to the 613 where applicable. There is wise Godly guidance in the purification laws, the dietary laws, the rules of engagement, the social responsibilities, etc etc etc. Those who meditate upon them and are guided by them in determining how to live according to His Word will benefit. But to follow them by rout ritualism gain nothing.

Thank you so much for this post! A lot of your position was clarified to me!

 

[Monna]

I don't see any ritual in the first commandment, if that is what you are saying.

No that is NOT what I am saying. I am saying there are rituals (also presented in the imperative voice) describing how to worship God, in a way that meets his requirements.

Remember, both Cain and Abel made sacrifices to God. Abel's were accepted, Cain's were not.

One example is the grain offering described in Leviticus 2.
When anyone brings a grain offering to the Lord, their offering is to be of the finest flour.
....
He shall take out the memorial portion from the grain offering and burn it on the altar as a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the Lord. The rest of the grain offering belongs to Aaron and his sons; it is a most holy part of the food offerings presented to the Lord.

 

[Elihoenai]

Jesus: The English form "Jesus" was not seen nor spoken until AFTER the year 1525...

when Sir William Tyndale -A Protestant Reformer from Oxford, England - INVENTED IT!

These are Exoteric! Our posts are not Common Knowledge!

Exoteric

Exoteric refers to knowledge that is outside, and independent from, a person's experience and can be ascertained by anyone (related to common sense). The word is derived from the comparative form of Greek ἔξω eksô, "from, out of, outside". It signifies anything which is public, without limits, or universal. It is distinguished from internal esoteric knowledge.

Exoteric - Wikipedia

 

[gadar perets]

No because they are not found in the TEN. But they should because God is wiser and there is a blessing in the obedience to the 613 where applicable. There is wise Godly guidance in the purification laws, the dietary laws, the rules of engagement, the social responsibilities, etc etc etc. Those who meditate upon them and are guided by them in determining how to live according to His Word will benefit. But to follow them by rout ritualism gain nothing.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying we don't "have to" keep the dietary laws, social responsibilities (not sure what you are referring to), etc., because they are not in the TEN? If so, I totally disagree. To eat swine's flesh, for example, is a SIN. All believers have to abstain from eating it. All believers have to abstain from having sex with those people forbidden to us as per Leviticus 18. These social responsibilities are not optional.

 

[AbbaLove]

Steve said, "Yeah, God hates ritual"​

I got the impression Steve was being sarcastic.

To me nothing of God's is a ritual, only man made dictates of "how" are.

If asked which religion has more "religious rituals" Judaism or Christianity doesn't that depend on one's understanding if it's even possible for a "religious ritual" to please God?

What's viewed as a man made religious ritual by some Messianics and Christians may be viewed as a God inspired ritual by other Messianics and Christians. Isn't it more a matter of the intent of one's heart? For example would Daniel praying three times a day while facing Jerusalem be considered a man made ritual that pleased God (Daniel 6:10) ...

When Daniel realized that a written decree had been issued, he entered his home, where the windows in his upper room opened toward Jerusalem. Three times daily he was kneeling and offering prayers and thanks to his God just as he had been accustomed to do previously.​

 

[gadar perets]

If asked which religion has more "religious rituals" Judaism or Christianity doesn't that depend on one's understanding if it's even possible for a "religious ritual" to please God?

What's viewed as a man made religious ritual by some Messianics and Christians may be viewed as a God inspired ritual by other Messianics and Christians. Isn't it more a matter of the intent of one's heart?

Ritual - 1. a religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order.
​

Baptism and foot washing are rituals desired by YHWH and pleasing to Him. Hand washing as done by the Jews is a ritual desired by men.

I don't think it is a matter of intent. If YHWH commanded it, then He desires it. If man commands it, it is possible it may or may not please Him. Daniel's praying three times a day was certainly pleasing to YHWH, but I don't see it as a command.

 

[MysticFred82]

I had assumed the "God hates ritual" was completely sarcastic.
If you are both a trinitarian and support biblical inerrancy (which I don't) you have to say that it was Christ who gave the rituals! Even if you say those rituals are creations of man and the priestly class than I believe they are still worthy of respect. Doesn't Romans talk about the faith of the patriarchs count as righteousness, this would include thier ritual devotion.

Though at the same time, there is an important role of being an iconoclast in spiritual matters and rejection of mankinds idolatry. A recognition that our limited understand doesn't full grasp God nor is He limited to our boundaries we set for Him. Now I'm a follower of negative theology but so was Maimonides, the great sage of Judaism, wrote the Mishna Torah a work detailing the list of 613. So you can be committed to the otherness/transcendence of God while still observing ritual. Ritual connects us to God, it doesn't control God.

Another thing is the vast majority of the commandments are mandatory only for Jews. According to the Rabbis, Gentiles only follow 7 laws, only one of which is ritualistic of not eating limbs of living animals. Even the 10 commandments are a bad example, most Christians don't keep the sabbath (both no work and no fire). Jesus of course though is speaking to the Jews and offers a reform of the Laws that pertain to them.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Yes, I was being sarcastic.

 

[AbbaLove]

Baptism and foot washing are rituals desired by YHWH and pleasing to Him. Hand washing as done by the Jews is a ritual desired by men.​

Rituals incorporated into Jewish ceremonies is what has helped define/bond Jews together as a distinct Judaic religion for thousands of years. Orthodox Jewish sects of different persuasion may agree to disagree when it comes to which of their rituals are desired by YHWH and which of their rituals are desired by men.

As a Messianic Jew how do you determine if a Jewish "ritual" is pleasing God as an essential component of a commandment? For example if a Messianic Jew doesn't wear Tefillin and doesn't cover his head with a prayer shawl while facing east when praying is he breaking a commandment?

What's your opinion on whether or not Yeshua ever put on Tefillin (phylacteries) as an essential ritual commanded by YHWH?

As to Tefillin and Its Significance the Chabad.org website says ...

Tefillin is one of the most important Mitzvot (precepts) of the Torah. It has been observed and treasured for thousands of years, right down to the present day.

 

[MysticFred82]

Yes, I was being sarcastic.

I thought so, it was pretty funny.

This is an interesting article that argued rightly that Christ gave the rituals since he was eternal.
Did Jesus Oppose Animal Sacrifice? – Shameless Popery

 

[MysticFred82]

The more I think about the ritual mitzvot, the more I realize that I'm just not called to them. That makes sense if I feel I'm not called to be a member of the Jewish people. They have a special role as the priesthood of mankind. So perhaps someone with a "Jewish soul" as the Kabbalist speak of, that is someone called by God to adopt all the mitzvot would feel more led to do so and are thus called towards conversion. I even remember a specific point where my wife and I were arguing about my growing interest in Judaism (she's Christian) and I felt God was saying "it's going to be okay, don't lose your marriage over this." And I thought how could it be okay?! I had just found and been found by God again after a long time of searching. But His plans are better than our plans.

I do feel very called to the noahide laws and to a practice of prayer. The Rabbis say there is nothing wrong with a Gentile/noahide wearing tefflin and may gain blessings from doing so.
Can a non-Jew don tefillin?

And yes, this is totally contradictory that I'm pointing to Rabbinical judgements on Noahides yet saying I don't accept their authority maybe it's just me not being called to being Jewish. Also it's a legalistic solution of covering my basis in response to a legalistic system.

 

[Steve Petersen]

The more I think about the ritual mitzvot, the more I realize that I'm just not called to them. That makes sense if I feel I'm not called to be a member of the Jewish people. They have a special role as the priesthood of mankind. So perhaps someone with a "Jewish soul" as the Kabbalist speak of, that is someone called by God to adopt all the mitzvot would feel more led to do so and are thus called towards conversion. I even remember a specific point where my wife and I were arguing about my growing interest in Judaism (she's Christian) and I felt God was saying "it's going to be okay, don't lose your marriage over this." And I thought how could it be okay?! I had just found and been found by God again after a long time of searching. But His plans are better than our plans.

I do feel very called to the noahide laws and to a practice of prayer. The Rabbis say there is nothing wrong with a Gentile/noahide wearing tefflin and may gain blessings from doing so.
Can a non-Jew don tefillin?

And yes, this is totally contradictory that I'm pointing to Rabbinical judgements on Noahides yet saying I don't accept their authority maybe it's just me not being called to being Jewish. Also it's a legalistic solution of covering my basis in response to a legalistic system.

Noachide is good, but what religious practice do you do then?

 

[gadar perets]

If you are both a trinitarian and support biblical inerrancy (which I don't) you have to say that it was Christ who gave the rituals!

A trinitrian would have to say that, but the Scriptures prove it is not true.

According to the Rabbis, Gentiles only follow 7 laws,

If that were true, then Gentile believers are free to make graven images, break the Sabbath, dishonor parents, bear false witness, and covet, not to mention commands outside of the TEN like being free to eat swine's flesh, move boundary markers, etc.