Breaking the chains (of sin and darkness)...?

[Bible Highlighter]

Don't confuse the objective work of Christ with the subjective experience of that salvation.

I think it is best we agree to disagree then. I do not see the verses I quoted to you as being true to what you said.


...

 

[FireDragon76]

I think it is best we agree to disagree then. I do not see the verses I quoted to you as being true to what you said.
...

The verses you quoted can all be interpreted in a way consistent with what I said. But if you want to imply that we can live a sinless life, then I think it is indeed good that we agree to disagree.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The verses you quoted can all be interpreted in a way consistent with what I said. But if you want to imply that we can live a sinless life, then I think it is indeed good that we agree to disagree.

Most deny Sinless Perfectionism even though it is clearly taught in the Scriptures. 1 Peter 4:1 says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Jesus said to be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48). The Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless.

As for the 3 verses I brought up: Well, 2 out of the 3 verses I presented to you before clearly show that Jesus has given Himself for us (on the cross) so as to purify unto Himself a peculiar people who are zealous of good works and who are holy and without blemish. This would be in behavior because good works is talking about behavior (See again Titus 2:14 and Ephesians 5:25-27). This is not a matter of interpretation but it is a matter of denying something that is plainly written in Scripture.


...

 

[FireDragon76]

I've been through the holiness church thing, though mine was eastern and not western, but the results are often the same- frustration, despair, and legalism. That can't be Good News.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I've been through the holiness church thing, though mine was eastern and not western, but the results are often the same- frustration, despair, and legalism. That can't be Good News.

Not all holiness churches are obviously true. Do they encourage you to do something alone or do they encourage you to let God work in your life so as to do the good work? There is a difference. As for legalism. What is the flip side of legalism? It is lawlessness. God is not against His own laws or commands. Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. Do you love Jesus in the way of keeping His commandments? If not, then you are not loving Jesus according to His very own words that He said.

But I would rather go to a holiness church that is not exactly perfect in their understanding on Soteriology because at least they are not trying to justify sin. They are seeking to do the right thing with God instead of the wrong thing. Churches that don't stress holiness are going against God because the opposite of holiness is unrighteousness or sin (Which is the polar opposite of God's good character). Also, not saying that this is my problem or case, but if I struggled to do good my whole life, I would rather be on that path than to just give up and live in sin and think God's grace has got me (despite me being evil). For how can God agree with with a person who acts evil? It doesn't make any sense. Surely Jude 1:4 NIV lets us know that we cannot treat God's grace as a license for immorality.


...

 

[FireDragon76]

There is a dialectic relationship between our justification and our sinfulness, both are simultaneously true.

I don't think my church approves of sin, that would be a foreign concept to Lutheranism honestly.

Lutheranism is about compassion, first from God, then from us. The parable of the unmerciful servant is what we are aiming at. Forgive others because God has forgiven you. Of any large, mainline denomination, I think Lutheranism takes sin the most seriously (Catholicism would be up there too, and the various Reformed churches), and preaches about it the most. Luther was basically the catholic "Doctor of Sin", he knew its ins and outs. He also knew how hopeless the Christian spiritual life would be without the unconditional grace given through Jesus Christ.

I actually think many holiness churches do not take sin as seriously as the think. There are certain pet sins that they preach against, it's rather straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is a dialectic relationship between our justification and our sinfulness, both are simultaneously true.

I don't think my church approves of sin, that would be a foreign concept to Lutheranism honestly.

Lutheranism is about compassion, first from God, then from us. The parable of the unmerciful servant is what we are aiming at. Forgive others because God has forgiven you. Of any large, mainline denomination, I think Lutheranism takes sin the most seriously (Catholicism would be up there too, and the various Reformed churches), and preaches about it the most. Luther was basically the catholic "Doctor of Sin", he knew its ins and outs. He also knew how hopeless the Christian spiritual life would be without the unconditional grace given through Jesus Christ.

I actually think many holiness churches do not take sin as seriously as the think. There are certain pet sins that they preach against, it's rather straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Lutherans are following a man who has admitted that we can "sin bodly." Whether all people in the Lutheran church agree with that statement from Luther (as it is plainly written) is another story. But it is what Luther said.

Anyways, the following person's experience says otherwise to what you have stated in regards to sin within the Lutheran church. In fact, much of what this person says who left the Lutheran church makes a lot of sense when we carefully examine God's Word (By way of contrast), too.

Why I Left the Lutheran Church - Truediscipleship


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[FireDragon76]

I will quote the original context of "sin boldly" just for a wider context:

If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

Martin Luther: Sin Boldly | Page 1 of 1

Lutherans are following a man who has admitted that we can "sin bodly." Whether all people in the Lutheran church agree with that statement from Luther (as it is plainly written) is another story. But it is what Luther said.

Yes, all Lutherans agree with Luther on "sinning boldly", when properly understood. It is foundational to Lutheran ethics. It is necessary to sin boldly, to preach a real mercy and not an imagined mercy. Our sins are real, therefore the mercy offered must be real as well.

Do you even understand the Augustinian anthropology that Luther built his theology around? We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. Sin often taints our motivations, including the desire to be holy. Only the Holy Spirit can produce genuine good works in us, and even these works are feeble and imperfect, and do not merit eternal life. But yet, we should do good works anyways, for the sake of our neighbor.

In fact, much of what this person says who left the Lutheran church makes a lot of sense when we carefully examine God's Word (By way of contrast), too.

Why I Left the Lutheran Church - Truediscipleship


...

That sounds like a naive young man. There are thousands of churches each thinking they have reinvented that "book of Acts" church in perfection. But I haven't seen a perfect church yet.

 

[Bigmike424]

May God's love shine upon you.


...

GOD has blessed me tremendously now since 1995 and ya know I pray the same for you brother. May the Lord bless you with infinite wisdom and words to supplant the gospel of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to all that will hear. Amen.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I will quote the original context of "sin boldly" just for a wider context:



Martin Luther: Sin Boldly | Page 1 of 1





Yes, all Lutherans agree with Luther on "sinning boldly", when properly understood. It is foundational to Lutheran ethics. It is necessary to sin boldly, to preach a real mercy and not an imagined mercy. Our sins are real, therefore the mercy offered must be real as well.

Do you even understand the Augustinian anthropology that Luther built his theology around? We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. Sin often taints our motivations, including the desire to be holy. Only the Holy Spirit can produce genuine good works in us, and even these works are feeble and imperfect, and do not merit eternal life. But yet, we should do good works anyways, for the sake of our neighbor.



That sounds like a naive young man. There are thousands of churches each thinking they have reinvented that "book of Acts" church in perfection. But I haven't seen a perfect church yet.

Still doesn't work. That would be like telling people to drink and drive boldly vs. just telling them to drink and drive; It is still wrong. Or if you are going to sleep around, go ahead do so boldly. Again, it is still wrong to tell people to sleep around no matter the intensity or level of it. Remember, Jesus said that even looking upon a woman in lust is like adultery. So I just do not see God agreeing with the idea to "sin boldly." I have heard Lutherans before trying to explain Luther's words on "sin boldly" in the same way that you are saying it, but I am just not buying it. Words have meaning.

Let's look at Luther's words.

"God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong [or sin boldly], but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides." ~ Luther​

He is telling me to be a sinner. He is saying we will commit sins while we are here. Yet, John says, to: "sin not." (1 John 2:1). Paul says, "be ye angry and sin not." Jesus says, "sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." (John 5:14). Jesus says, "go, and sin no more." (John 8:11). Peter says, "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin" (1 Peter 4:1). Paul says, "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

It sounds to me what Luther says vs. what the Bible says are two different things.


...

 

[FireDragon76]

Remember, Jesus said that even looking upon a woman in lust is like adultery.

He did that to re-frame our use of the Law. Since the law condemns us, we should not be like hypocrites. Jesus wants us to be forgiving, not judgmental.

So I just do not see God agreeing with the idea to "sin boldly." I have heard Lutherans before trying to explain Luther's words on "sin boldly" in the same way that you are saying it, but I am just not buying it. Words have meaning.

Then you are saying it's not OK for God to freely forgive sinners.

He is telling me to be a sinner.

Nope. He's not telling you to be one ,he's saying to own up to what you are, and to put your trust in Christ alone to be your true savior.

He is saying we will commit sins while we are here. Yet, John says, to: "sin not." (1 John 2:1). Paul says, "be ye angry and sin not."

You're confusing Law and Gospel.

Jesus says, "go, and sin no more." (John 8:11).

A chronically abused passage. Go read Timothy Wengert's explanation of this passage in Reading the Bible with Martin Luther. The way you are reading it, you are turning an invitation to leave a life of adultery into a condemnation of all sinners. That's poor exegesis and poor theology. He's just forgiven the woman, why would he condemn her?

Reading the Bible with Martin Luther: An Introductory Guide: Timothy J. Wengert: 9780801049170: Amazon.com: Books

It sounds to me what Luther says vs. what the Bible says are two different things.

Or it could be that you've found a way to boil down the complexity and tension of much of the Scriptures into a nice, neat, rationalized package of works-righteousness.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

in it mildest form "Wrong", In it's worse form "Evil", In it's moderate form "wickedness"... Bad, wrong...

Mistreating disrespecting, not honoring or esteeming others as greater to or equal to yourself... And, by equal as yourself, always treating others how you would want to be treated, regardless of how they treat you... Always treating them anyway, how you yourself want to be treated, regardless of how they treat you... Even if they are not treating you how they want to be treated themselves by you or someone else and are being hypocritical... For example: If you don't want others to be angry with you, "ever" than don't be angry at or toward anyone else "ever", as one example...

The only exception being is when you would want someone to say rebuke or correct you (mildly and gently at first), (increasing in intensity and severity, in steps the more the same bad behavior is repeated), Anyways, The only exception being is when you would want someone to say rebuke or correct you, for bad behavior, when they are displaying it toward you, and you would want them to do the same with you if you did that, and you fully accept that... Then and only then, it might be right to take a stand against wrong, as long as you fully expect and will fully accept someone else taking a stand against you when you are wrong, doing wrong, or are in the wrong, of, course...

Otherwise it wouldn't be just...

God Bless!

Peace be with you.

You won't be able to break the chains of sin and darkness with that understanding.

You need to see sin and darkness from the Point of View of God, which requires a Lot of Enlightenment from the Holy Spirit through Devotion to God. This is Very, Very, Very Hard to accomplish.

You also need to realise that you will not get away with any sins you commit in this life. Every sin committed in this life has repercussions in the next life if the sin committed in this life is not properly expiated and penance done. This also requires a Lot of Enlightenment from the Holy Spirit through Devotion to God. This is Very, Very, Very Hard to accomplish.

You also need to understand the Word of God from the Point of View of God. He uses His Words for His own purposes because it is God who judges. This also requires a Lot of Enlightenment from the Holy Spirit through Devotion to God. This is Very, Very, Very Hard to accomplish.


Becoming Perfect - This State is a different ballgame altogether.


To be Perfect is like:

Sitting a Test which has a 100% difficulty rating.

0-50% mark - 80% of the people are here.

51-60% mark - 15% of the people are here.

61-70% mark - 4% of the people are here.

71-80% mark - 0.99% of the people are here.

81-90% mark - 0.009999% of the people are here.

90-99% mark - 0.000000985% of the people are here.

100% mark - 0.000000015% of the people are here.


That's why you get a lot of different opinions.


God bless you.

 

[Neogaia777]

One part of the Bible appears to say that we are saved without doing anything. The other part of the Bible paints a different picture saying that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God, etc.. How do we reconcile the many passages of Paul with what James says? How do we reconcile faith and works (or a life of holiness)? How do we reconcile Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 with James 2:17, James 2:24, 1 John 3:10, and Titus 1:16, etc.?

The answer is actually really simple. The answer is Jesus Christ.

Jesus saves us by His work that He did with His death, resurrection, and ascension (i.e. Justification - Our belief in Jesus and His work He did for us and by our asking Him to forgive us of our sin).

Jesus also saves us by His work that He does within our life, too (i.e. Jesus saves us in Sanctification, as well). For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8). This would be the works of the devil within your life (i.e. sin). For there is nothing that can tranform or changes lives more than Jesus Christ; That is one of the reasons why God's people preach the good news of Jesus Christ so as to be saved by Him. For Jesus has fixed up broken homes (or familes). Jesus has drawn the alcoholic away from the bottle. Jesus has helped the gambler to put down his cards and walk away from the game. Jesus has helped the drug addict from the power of the needle. Jesus has helped the harlot from being a slave to sexual sin and money. For Jesus Christ changes lives. Jesus changed my life and He continues to change lives today (Making them new creations in His image).

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
(2 Corinthians 5:17).

Here are three heavy hitter verses that I am hoping will hit a home run with you on this point.

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

"Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14).

25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:25-27).

Did you catch what it said in Ephesians 5?
It says Christ gave Himself for the church (i.e. the saints) that He might sanctify and cleanse them by the washing of the water of the Word (i.e. God's Word or Scripture) that He might present to Himself a type of church that is without spot, wrinkle, and who is holy and without blemish. How do we get cleansed by the Word? By obeying the commands within it. Jesus says, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3). And Jesus had said elsewhere, "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed." (John 8:31). For Jesus says, "He that is of God heareth God's words" (John 8:47). On the flipside, Jesus says this can be our reality,
26 "And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
(Matthew 7:26-27).

Or the following can be our reality...

"Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God." (Philippians 1:11).

I hope this helps.
And may God bless you.


...

Faith or Grace is the beginning, the start... While works, or law, is the end, or the fulfillment... Is how I take it... And one cannot judge another very accurately to where there at or should be in that process, only God alone can and knows... Most of us are at varying and different stages somewhere in that...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Faith or Grace is the beginning, the start... While works, or law, is the end, or the fulfillment... Is how I take it... And one cannot judge another very accurately to where there at or should be in that process, only God alone can and knows... Most of us are at varying and different stages somewhere in that...

God Bless!

Well, law or works is actually the beginning and the end, and faith or grace is somewhere, and is for the somewhere's, in between, actually...

God Bless!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Faith or Grace is the beginning, the start... While works, or law, is the end, or the fulfillment... Is how I take it... And one cannot judge another very accurately to where there at or should be in that process, only God alone can and knows... Most of us are at varying and different stages somewhere in that...

God Bless!

Well, in part that would be true. There is a little more to it than that, my friend.

#1. Faith continues thru out your life.

This would be:
(a) Faith in God as your Savior
(b) Faith in God to get you thru the challenges of life.
(c) Faith in God's Word.​

#2. Works are a way of showing your faith.

James say, "I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18).​

#3. Grace and mercy continues thru out your life. For while grace and mercy without works is a part of our "Initial Salvation", grace and mercy with works is a part of our "Continued Salvation" (which is the result of a true faith that continues thru out our life).

For 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Note: Being cleansed of all sin is grace and mercy.​

#4. Jesus saves. In other words, while we do have to cooperate with God in our walk with Him, we are not saving ourselves ultimately.

Jesus saves us both in:
(a) Justification (Having a belief in Him as our Savior and going to Him to confess our sins to obtain mercy and grace) and in:
(b) Sanctification (By allowing the Lord to work within you).​

#5. Sin is separation from God (Even as a believer). So Fear God (until you can have "perfect love" that casts out fear. Note: Perfect love is obeying the Lord. See 1 John 2:3-6.).

There can be no justification or allowance in thinking we can sin in this life while being in God's good graces. While not all sin leads to the Second Death, (1 John 5:16-18) we must never have the type of thinking we can justify sin and be accepted by Him (For God is holy and good); We must also not think that we can never stop sinning in this life, too. Most today say that there is nothing you can do that ever make you lose your salvation. They are wrong. God's Word says, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). God's Word also says, work out your salvation with fear and trembling, too (Philippians 2:12). Eternal Security or a doctrine that says you can sin and still be saved just does not line up with verses like these. Stay in the love of God and teach properly against evil and sin.​

I hope this helps.
May God bless you.
And please be well.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As for the Law:

Obeying the New Covenant Law helps us to be free from the Old Covenant Law.

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2).

I will explain this more in detail later.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus? (Romans 8:2).
It is Romans 8:1 that says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is a New Covenant Law or Command. It says we are to walk after the Spirit in Christ Jesus and not after the flesh so as not to be under the "Condemnation."

3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

In other words, the above passage says the same thing as this,

"Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works" (Titus 2:14).

And this,

25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
(Ephesians 5:25-27).

It's why we are told to,

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

So the following can be our reality,

"Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God." (Philippians 1:11).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is freedom. Walking in the ways of Jesus Christ (Which is to love God and to love our neighbor and following the Commands in the New Testament). This would be allowing the Lord's goodness to flow thru our life. For God's new and perfect way under the New Covenant sets us free from the Old Law that brought sin and death. For if you broke the Old Law, you could face capital punishment for your offense against God's Law. In other words, you could die physically for breaking God's Law. You also had to keep revisiting the same past sins year after year. For the blood of goats and bulls never permanently took away sin. But now there is grace and mercy under the New Covenant with Jesus. This grace and mercy is not there for us to have a license to sin, but it is there to help us to overcome our sin with the Lord working thru us (His goodness). We fulfill the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law by walking after the Spirit. For God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him (Acts 5:32).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

He did that to re-frame our use of the Law. Since the law condemns us, we should not be like hypocrites. Jesus wants us to be forgiving, not judgmental.

You believe you cannot overcome sin. You believe like Luther in that he said you will always be in sin. This is not an encouragment to stop sinning but it is a defeatist attitude towards sin that is not taught within the Scriptures or real life. Even unbelievers have overcome certain sins. So the notion that believers cannot overcome sin by the Lord's power and working is simply not true and it is a denial of Scripture.

Then you are saying it's not OK for God to freely forgive sinners.

No. That is what you are saying. God can freely forgive sins but a person has to be penitent. A believer cannot continue in sin and not have a Godly sorrow over their sin and refuse to repent of their sins and be right with God. God is not a respecter of persons.

Nope. He's not telling you to be one ,he's saying to own up to what you are, and to put your trust in Christ alone to be your true savior.

No. Don't tell me what you think he said. I KNOW what he said. It is written in black and white. He said "be a sinner." He said, "we WILL commit sins." He is encouraging me to sin. This is wrong. Your failure to see what he has actually written does not change what he has actually written.

You're confusing Law and Gospel.

No. I am not. The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness (Titus 2:11-12).

A chronically abused passage. Go read Timothy Wengert's explanation of this passage in Reading the Bible with Martin Luther. The way you are reading it, you are turning an invitation to leave a life of adultery into a condemnation of all sinners. That's poor exegesis and poor theology. He's just forgiven the woman, why would he condemn her?

Reading the Bible with Martin Luther: An Introductory Guide: Timothy J. Wengert: 9780801049170: Amazon.com: Books

Jesus said to the woman to sin no more.
Jesus also said to the man he healed to sin no more unless a worse thing were to come upon him (John 5:14). That does not sound like the gospel that you are pushing.

Or it could be that you've found a way to boil down the complexity and tension of much of the Scriptures into a nice, neat, rationalized package of works-righteousness.

I can say you are boiling down salvation or the gospel into a nice neat package of unrighteousness but that doesn't prove anything. Besides, I believe Jesus saves both in Justification and in Sanctification. I believe Jesus does the good work in the believer's life so the believer cannot lay claim that they are saving themselves by their own work. So where is your claim that I am into works righteousness? It is nothing but smoke, my friend. For I do not believe in Man Directed Works Salvationism. I believe in God Directed Works Salvationism.

The Scriptures say this is the believer's reality.

"Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God" (Philippians 1:11).

A person cannot be filled with the fruits of righteousness that are by Jesus Christ if they are also filled with the fruits of unrighteousness or sin, too. For what fellowship does light have with darkness?


...

 

[FireDragon76]

You believe you cannot overcome sin. You believe like Luther in that he said you will always be in sin. This is not an encouragment to stop sinning but it is a defeatist attitude towards sin that is not taught within the Scriptures or real life.

Yes, it is a defeatist attitude towards sin, it is a Theology of the Cross. We Lutherans are not "overcomers", we are not into a "higher life" of being a Christian. Our hope is in the next world, we only sojourn in this one. But down here below, we must be realistic about our condition.

Even unbelievers have overcome certain sins. So the notion that believers cannot overcome sin by the Lord's power and working is simply not true and it is a denial of Scripture.

As interpreted by whom?

No. That is what you are saying. God can freely forgive sins but a person has to be penitent.

Ahh, there's the rub. God gives grace only to the "properly penitent", huh? That's the very thing that aroused Luther. If we cannot have assurance of God's grace for the improperly penitent, the half-hearted, the timid, we cannot have assurance of God's grace at all.

A believer cannot continue in sin and not have a Godly sorrow over their sin and refuse to repent of their sins and be right with God.

Welcome to the medieval religion of satisfaction and penance.

No. Don't tell me what you think he said. I KNOW what he said. It is written in black and white. He said "be a sinner." He said, "we WILL commit sins." He is encouraging me to sin.

Nope, not all. He doesn't have to encourage anybody to sin, that is what they were since birth.

No. I am not. The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness (Titus 2:11-12).

Of course. That doesn't mean we will be perfectly godly. In this life, it will be full of ambiguity in our moral lives. Which is why we, as Lutherans, put our hope in Heaven.

So where is your claim that I am into works righteousness? It is nothing but smoke, my friend. For I do not believe in Man Directed Works Salvationism. I believe in God Directed Works Salvationism.

It's still justification by works.

"Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God" (Philippians 1:11).

Amen, I believe that... I never said I did not. Good works and righteousness does not mean sinlessness.

A person cannot be filled with the fruits of righteousness that are by Jesus Christ if they are also filled with the fruits of unrighteousness or sin, too. For what fellowship does light have with darkness?

How can Paul say he is the chief of sinners? Was he some kind of fake Christian? Paul talks about a struggle in his flesh, he never claims to be without sin.