Breaking the chains (of sin and darkness)...?

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, it is a defeatist attitude towards sin, it is a Theology of the Cross. We Lutherans are not "overcomers", we are not into a "higher life" of being a Christian. Our hope is in the next world, we only sojourn in this one. But down here below, we must be realistic about our condition.



As interpreted by whom?



Ahh, there's the rub. God gives grace only to the "properly penitent", huh? That's the very thing that aroused Luther. If we cannot have assurance of God's grace for the improperly penitent, the half-hearted, the timid, we cannot have assurance of God's grace at all.



Welcome to the medieval religion of satisfaction and penance.



Nope, not all. He doesn't have to encourage anybody to sin, that is what they were since birth.



Of course. That doesn't mean we will be perfectly godly. In this life, it will be full of ambiguity in our moral lives. Which is why we, as Lutherans, put our hope in Heaven.



It's still justification by works.



Amen, I believe that... I never said I did not. Good works and righteousness does not mean sinlessness.



How can Paul say he is the chief of sinners? Was he some kind of fake Christian? Paul talks about a struggle in his flesh, he never claims to be without sin.

But what you suggest is Universalism then. If God does not judge us based on what we do, then He must save all of mankind. If God saves sinners, then why doesn't He save unbelievers? What makes the saints stand apart as being different than unbelievers? Not all that much. A belief in Jesus? Does a belief in anything make you a better person? Not really. For you know the good guys from the bad guys by what they do and not in what they believe. Do you ever get angry at sin or evil in this world? God is angry with the wicked every day (Psalms 7:11). Your notion or idea that God is not angry with the wicked just because they have a belief on Jesus is silly and irrational on what we know to be good and right. But go ahead and keep believing what you do if that makes you sleep easier at night. Just know it is not in line with the truth of God's Word and or reality of what we know to be true and good.

As for Justification by works:
Are not Christians saved by the work of the cross and by the work of the resurrection?
How can you criticize the work of Jesus then done in the believer (as mentioned in Scripture) then?

Is it better to do good or to do evil?
Would not God (being good) be on the position of us doing good no matter the circumstance? See, the problem with Eternal Security is that it makes it seem like God is on the side of defending us in doing the wrong thing. For it makes it sound like there is nothing that can separate us from God. It sounds like someone saying to me: Keep on sinning boy. You got your golden ticket to Heaven. Don't worry about sin. Just believe in Jesus. But I just do not see that concept or idea taught in the Scriptures.


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[FireDragon76]

But what you suggest is Universalism then. If God does not judge us based on what we do, then He must save all of mankind.

This would be speculation into things not clearly revealed. It does not necessarily imply universalism. Get your head out of your rationalistic, Anglo-Saxon Reformed theological categories.

As a Lutheran, I have faith in the power of God's Word, it doesn't return to him empty. I do believe that the Gospel changes peoples lives, else I would not be a Christian. But I reject moralism.

What makes the saints stand apart as being different than unbelievers? Not all that much. A belief in Jesus? Does a belief in anything make you a better person?

Of course beliefs make a difference. Any psychologist would tell you that.

Do you ever get angry at sin or evil in this world?

Of course, but that's because I'm a human being, not because I am a Christian. It's always better to try to not get angry. My religion is not a religion of outrage and activism, it's peace and freedom through the Gospel.

God is angry with the wicked every day (Psalms 7:11).

It's bad theology to use a single quote from a bronze age hymn as a proof text, and apply it as a generalization to an eternal, immutable God's character. God is not merely angry at the wicked, because we know from Scriptures that the Father sent the Son to redeem the whole world, including the wicked.

Your notion or idea that God is not angry with the wicked just because they have a belief on Jesus is silly and irrational on what we know to be good and right.

Now it is you who are making your own sense of goodness and rightness the standard. I will call that what it is, idolatry.

As for Justification by works:
Are not Christians saved by the work of the cross and by the work of the resurrection?
How can you criticize the work of Jesus then done in the believer (as mentioned in Scripture) then?

The works of Jesus Christ are a concrete manifestation of God's mercy and good will towards sinners. So we are ultimately saved on account of God's mercy, not on account of some kind of legalism. God is not obligated to reward our good works, because we are unprofitable servants.

Is it better to do good or to do evil?

Good, of course. That's not my point

Would not God (being good) be on the position of us doing good no matter the circumstance?

Yes, but he accepts much less, according to his mercy and grace.

See, the problem with Eternal Security is that it makes it seem like God is on the side of defending us in doing the wrong thing.

Again, get your head out of Anglo-Saxon Reformed categories. We can have assurance in Christ, but we are not TULIP Calvinists. Believers can fall away from the faith, through apostasy.

For it makes it sound like there is nothing that can separate us from God. It sounds like someone saying to me: Keep on sinning boy.

Then you are listening to what you want to hear. God does not approve of our sin, but he doesn't condemn those in Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This would be speculation into things not clearly revealed. It does not necessarily imply universalism. Get your head out of your rationalistic, Anglo-Saxon Reformed theological categories.

I am non-denominational. So your denominational insult is neither fitting nor appreciated. I am merely saying that your belief does not tend to be any different than Universalism because there is no real good reason to believe as you do because there is no real signficant difference between the saint and the unbeliever in your belief because they both treat sin as not all that big of a deal.

As a Lutheran, I have faith in the power of God's Word, it doesn't return to him empty. I do believe that the Gospel changes peoples lives, else I would not be a Christian. But I reject moralism.

This is a contradiction. You say that you believe the gospel changes lives but yet you reject morals? Yes, I know the Dictionary's definition of moralism. I also know the definition of Religious Moralism, too. They are in error to define true moralism because they seek to assign morals to men instead of God. For no man can lay claim to anything good. Jesus says only God is good. So morals ultimately come from God. Morals in and of themselves are standard of what is good and right. Without morality you cannot have a change of life for the better or for the good. In fact, the existence of morals proves there is a God. To cut out the morality, or goodness, or holiness, or righteousness from God (even a little bit) is to create a false darkened image of God that does not exist in the Scriptures. So let's give morality the name that it is due. God's morality or God's goodness. You cannot reject that because that would be like rejecting the holiness and righteousness of God. Even the Gentiles who do not have the Law do by nature the things that are in the Law. Why? Because man was made in the image of God. Man is going to have a remnant of the goodness of God embedded into the fabric of his being. Granted, man can ignore what they know to be good and right. They can ignore the goodness of God tugging at their heart. They can ignore the conviction to repent of their sins to the Lord (realizing that they broke God's laws or His standard of morality or goodness).

Of course beliefs make a difference. Any psychologist would tell you that.

A person's actions determines whether or not they truly believe what they do. If a person truly believes they will be physically fit, they will take the necessary action to make that belief a reality. If not, it is simply a pipe dream or wishful thinking. This is why Jesus says, "why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do the things that I say?" (Luke 6:46).

Of course, but that's because I'm a human being, not because I am a Christian. It's always better to try to not get angry. My religion is not a religion of outrage and activism, it's peace and freedom through the Gospel.

Paul tells us to be ye angry and sin not (Ephesians 4:26).

It's bad theology to use a single quote from a bronze age hymn as a proof text, and apply it as a generalization to an eternal, immutable God's character. God is not merely angry at the wicked, because we know from Scriptures that the Father sent the Son to redeem the whole world, including the wicked.

Do you wish to see God's love? Look at the cross.
Do you wish to see God's wrath? Again, look at the cross.

We tend to think in terms of God's love like how we view love and anger. When we are mad we are not being loving, etc. But this is not true when we as a father are angry at our sons or daughters. We love them and our anger at their wrong doing does not mean we desire to see them ill or harmed. We are angered by the fact that they are doing injustice, but we desire them to repent or to learn from their mistake.

Now it is you who are making your own sense of goodness and rightness the standard. I will call that what it is, idolatry.

Tell me how it is morally superior to have a belief on Jesus and yet commit sin and evil? That to me is idolatry because God always condemned evil or sinful actions (Both in the OT and the NT). Seeking to worship yourself and or your sin and also God is idolatry because you are seeking to lift up yourself and not God. But if you seek God and His good ways alone (According to His Word), how can God condemn you for what He commands of you? How can God condemn you for striving to be holy as He is holy? Does not God's Word say be ye holy as I am holy?

The works of Jesus Christ are a concrete manifestation of God's mercy and good will towards sinners. So we are ultimately saved on account of God's mercy, not on account of some kind of legalism. God is not obligated to reward our good works, because we are unprofitable servants.

No. That is not what the Bible says.
It says this about the unprofitable servant.

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

Also, Sanctification is a work of the Lord Jesus Christ done in you.

"Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God." (Philippians 1:11).

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

As for God rewarding: The Bible says,

6 "He will reward each one according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality,
8 but wrath and anger to those who live in selfish ambition and do not obey the truth but follow unrighteousness.
9 There will be affliction and distress on everyone who does evil, on the Jew first and also the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, for the Jew first and also the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law."
(Romans 2:6-12 NET).

Is it better to do good or to do evil?

Good, of course. That's not my point

I do not think you really believe that because you hold to a belief that allows you to think it is the better position to be a sinner who is saved by God's grace. While a believer can struggle with sin and call upon God's mercy and be saved, God cannot agree with the sinner who thinks they will always be in sin their whole lives or who thinks they will sin every day because Jesus transforms lives for the better and not for the worse.

Would not God (being good) be on the position of us doing good no matter the circumstance?

Yes, but he accepts much less, according to his mercy and grace.

When you say God accepts less you are essentially saying that God accepts our sinful condition, right? Can God agree with sin?
No doubt you believe that man is sinful and that there is no way he can ever be righteous in this life (even by God working in them). You believe the sinner is changed so as to live righteously after they die. Yet, the Scriptures teach that we can live righteously here. 1 Peter 4:1 says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

See, the problem with Eternal Security is that it makes it seem like God is on the side of defending us in doing the wrong thing.

Again, get your head out of Anglo-Saxon Reformed categories. We can have assurance in Christ, but we are not TULIP Calvinists. Believers can fall away from the faith, through apostasy.

That does not really address the problem of what I said. In Eternal Security, you can sin and still be saved. This is a defense of doing the wrong thing instead of the right thing. The New Testament teaches us to live holy and righteous and it never teaches us to justify sinful living or to minimize sin in some way in favor of God's grace.

For it makes it sound like there is nothing that can separate us from God. It sounds like someone saying to me: Keep on sinning boy.

Then you are listening to what you want to hear. God does not approve of our sin, but he doesn't condemn those in Christ.

So you are saying God is not into fair justice?
God will let sinners and evil doers into heaven all because they have a mere belief on Jesus? What makes somebody morally superior or right with God by having a mere belief on Jesus? How does that make them better than the sinner who rejects the idea of having a belief on Jesus? If there is no change in the person, and God can allow us to sin, would not God have to agree with our sin in order to save us from our sin? Would not God's goodness save us from our sinful prison in this life? Does not God give us victory in what is good? Why would God leave us in defeat in our own sin within this life? Is that the testimony God wants to send to the world? That God is powerless to help us to overcome our sin? That our sin is stronger than God? Surely not. For God is good.


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[FireDragon76]

I am non-denominational. So your denominational insult is neither fitting nor appreciated.

It's not about denomination (there's no one Lutheran denomination, BTW), it's about confession and theology. Your theology is obviously shaped by a Reformed background, whether Calvinist or Arminian, you are thinking and speaking in Reformed categories. Lutherans have entirely different categories. Some Reformed concepts do not neatly fit into Lutheran categories.

I am merely saying that your belief does not tend to be any different than Universalism because there is no real good reason to believe as you do because there is no real signficant difference between the saint and the unbeliever in your belief because they both treat sin as not all that big of a deal.

The difference between the saint and the unbeliever, is that the benefits of Christ's work have been applied to him.

Believers do treat sin as a big deal, it cost Christ a great deal to redeem us from sin and death. Just because we are not legalists or moralists does not mean we do not have an appreciation for the work of our Savior in redeeming us.

This is a contradiction. You say that you believe the gospel changes lives but yet you reject morals?

It's not a contradiction. Again, you need to step out of your particular religious bubble. The peace and comfort of the Gospel changes lives

They are in error to define true moralism because they seek to assign morals to men instead of God.

That's not what Lutherans mean by moralism. Moralism is seeking justification through our good works.

In fact, the existence of morals proves there is a God.

Huh? I won't go down that apologetics rabbit hole, needless to say that's a weak argument for the existence of God. But again, this is a decidedly rationalistic, evangelical way of looking at things.

How can God condemn you for striving to be holy as He is holy?

Because we are born sinners and do not merit God's grace? The outworking of the original sin of Adam means that we all share in Adam's sin. Every good work we do have the stamp of Adam on it. God accepts our works on account of Christ ,but it doesn't change the fact we are unprofitable servants. So our "holy" desires are meaningless to God in terms of whether he accepts us or not.

No. That is not what the Bible says.
It says this about the unprofitable servant.

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

Wrong story. See Luke 17

Also, Sanctification is a work of the Lord Jesus Christ done in you.

Another Reformed category.

While a believer can struggle with sin and call upon God's mercy and be saved, God cannot agree with the sinner who thinks they will always be in sin their whole lives or who thinks they will sin every day because Jesus transforms lives for the better and not for the worse.

Wow, what a fragile view of grace you have. Such a brittle, hollow, joyless faith.

When you say God accepts less you are essentially saying that God accepts our sinful condition, right?

Acceptance and approval are not the same thing.

No doubt you believe that man is sinful and that there is no way he can ever be righteous in this life (even by God working in them).

No, just the contrary, we are DECLARED righteous in this life, by being forgiven all our sins. Certainly, God begins a good work in us, but it is not completed in this life.

So you are saying God is not into fair justice?

He has set aside justice out of love. And that is a very good thing if you are a sinner.

What makes somebody morally superior or right with God by having a mere belief on Jesus?

God declares them right with himself.

Does not God give us victory in what is good? Why would God leave us in defeat in our own sin within this life?

It is not for us to speculate into God's ways, only to trust in his grace as sufficient and to be thankful for the mercies he shows to us.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It's not about denomination (there's no one Lutheran denomination, BTW), it's about confession and theology. Your theology is obviously shaped by a Reformed background, whether Calvinist or Arminian, you are thinking and speaking in Reformed categories. Lutherans have entirely different categories. Some Reformed concepts do not neatly fit into Lutheran categories.

I am non-denominational. I let the Bible speak for itself and do not let any particular church try to speak for me or shape my theology or beliefs in the Bible.

The difference between the saint and the unbeliever, is that the benefits of Christ's work have been applied to him.

So we are back to how is your belief any different than Universalism then. For if there is no defining major difference between the believing saint and the unbelieving sinner, then there is a serious problem going on here. God by His very virtue can only accept those who would come to Him in a righteous manner. This is because God is holy and righteous and good.

Believers do treat sin as a big deal, it cost Christ a great deal to redeem us from sin and death. Just because we are not legalists or moralists does not mean we do not have an appreciation for the work of our Savior in redeeming us.

I do not see your version of a believer as treating sin as a big deal because you are saying that your version of a believer will always be in sin and they declare that they do not follow God's laws or good ways (Which is a part of having morals) as a part of being right with God. They can do evil and be accepted by God. This is wrong because that would mean God would have to agree with your evil in order to save you.

It's not a contradiction. Again, you need to step out of your particular religious bubble. The peace and comfort of the Gospel changes lives

The Bible says the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked and who can know it. Also, there were believers who thought they were right with God, yet Jesus told them to depart from Him because they worked lawlessness. I do not believe your words here because the Bible teaches contrary to the type of gospel you are teaching.

That's not what Lutherans mean by moralism. Moralism is seeking justification through our good works.

Forget about your prescribed labels. I am not talking about those. I am talking about God's morality or God's goodness. The Lord's morality or goodness FLOWS thru a believer's life and the believer cannot lay claim to creating those good works all by themselves (If it is the Lord living in them and working in them). For Jesus says you can do nothing without me (John 15:5).

Huh? I won't go down that apologetics rabbit hole, needless to say that's a weak argument for the existence of God. But again, this is a decidedly rationalistic, evangelical way of looking at things.

Morality does not make sense in an Evolutionary or atheistic world model. Survival of the fittest is what Evolution is all about. In the early stages of so called life in Evolution, a single celled organism eliminating another single celled organism would just be "Natural Selection." So if I believe I came from the slime, then murder does not really exist. It would just be the process of "Natural Selection." In other words, Morals do not make sense without God. If there is not a Law maker and or Law giver than all things are permitted. Moral relativism is the name of the game in a universe without God. God knows what is good for us and He sets the standard of what is good.

"In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes" (Judges 21:25).

Without the King of Kings, people would do what was right in their own eyes.

Because we are born sinners and do not merit God's grace? Your desire to be holy and to condemn churches such as Lutherans for not being pious or "moral" enough, to praise apostasy from our confession, is just part of the working of the original sin of Adam. What you think of as righteousness is really complete unrighteousness. It is pharisaism. Don't be a wolf that preys on the sheep.

Actually, Jesus condemned the pharisees because they did not obey God's Word and it wasn't because of a lack of easy believism or having a mental acknowledgement on Him as their Savior while their life lives a different story.

Jesus said that they were desiring to sin because God's Word had no place within them.

"I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you." (John 8:37).

Meaning, the reason why the pharisees desired to kill Jesus is because they did not obey God's Word.

Jesus says, "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;" (John 8:31).

Jesus says, "He that is of God heareth God's words." (John 8:47).

The pharisees did not hear or obey God's words. This was the reason why they were not of God.

1 John 3:10 says a similar thing.

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:7).

Wrong story. See Luke 17

So you just ignore Matthew 25:30?

As for Luke 17:7-10

The New Living Translation says "unworthy servants" in Luke 17:10 which would be a more accurate understanding of how we would understand that verse today. While the KJV is still accurate, the 1600's English is not the same as the English today. There is an unprofitable servant who was cast into outer darkness in Matthew 25. So this is obviously talking about two different kinds of unprofitable or unworthy servants.

Also, Sanctification is a work of the Lord Jesus Christ done in you.

Another Reformed category.

Uh, no it's not. It is something that is in your Bible.

Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

So no. I do not believe in Works Salvationism. I believe if someone truly has accepted the LORD and Christ lives within them, then good fruit (And not bad fruit) will be evident in their life to prove that the One who is salvation itself abides within them (1 John 5:12).

Wow, what a fragile view of grace you have. Such a brittle, hollow, joyless faith.

You have things backwards about God's grace. The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness (Titus 2:11-12) (Which is contrary to your definition of grace). I am glad that grace does not cover willful sin or rebellion done against God because it would be turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

"For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord" (Jude 1:4 NIV).

Acceptance and approval are not the same thing.

So if God saves sinners or those who do evil against Him, then why doesn't He also save sinning unbeliever's too?

No, just the contrary, we are DECLARED righteous in this life, by being forgiven all our sins. Certainly, God begins a good work in us, but it is not completed in this life.

How convenient. You can act as your own lord and serve yourself and sin and yet also say you are serving God, too. However, Jesus says you cannot serve two masters. For you will hate the one and love the other.

Not sure if you are aware of this or not, but Matthew 13:41-42 says that Jesus will send forth His angels and gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who sin and do lawlessness and cast them into the furnace of fire.

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42 ESV).

He has set aside justice out of love. And that is a very good thing if you are a sinner.

It doesn't sound like God set aside justice here.

"And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire. They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed." (2 Peter 3:7 NLT).

What makes somebody morally superior or right with God by having a mere belief on Jesus?

God declares them right with himself.

That is not an answer to the question but a mere blind repeating of dogma with no real thought or reason.

It is not for us to speculate into God's ways, only to trust in his grace as sufficient and to be thankful for the mercies he shows to us.

God wants us to think rationally. God wants us to do what is always good and to think the best of Him as He is presented within His Word. My questions are asked to show you that your belief is not Biblical. God is good. God is holy. Just on these two facts of Scripture itself God cannot every lead us to follow a teaching that could lead us into something that was not good. Being a slave to sin is not good. Even Jesus said to the Pharisees that he that sins is a slave to sin. Jesus did not say this favorably to the pharisees. Paul says you are slave or servant to whomever you obey.


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