bratty children misbehaving, no discipline

[selfinflikted]

individual anecdotes aren't very good evidence in cases like this. One woman who held the "oldest living woman in the world" title for a while gave the advice of "don't move around" as her secret to longevity, and ate pure sugar as a snack. Individuals can have a lot of unique traits that let them "turn out ok," despite being exposed to unhealthy things.

Spanking has been studied for decades, and no matter how it's examined (looking at individual children, or at broad populations; longitudinal and cross-sectional) it's consistently positively correlated with higher aggression, lower grades, lower cognitive abilities, worse behavior, and worse social skills, relative to unspanked or less-spanked peers.

True that correlation =/= causation, but true experiments aren't really ethical in this field, and with some of those longitudinal studies showing problems that increase in severity over time, correlated with more and more spanking, there is a strong suggestion that spanking is actually the cause.

I know personal anecdotes aren't any real evidence, but I just have to say: I grew up in a very small town and EVERY kid I know was spanked at some point or another and we all turned out just fine. When I say "every kid I knew was spanked" I mean every single one. I don't consider that any one of those was ever abused, as I don't consider spanking abuse. Not even in the same ballpark.

 

[Skaloop]

Then don't spank, but don't tell me to not spank.

I never did. I'm just trying to understand the mindset of someone who would willingly inflict unnecessary pain on their child.

 

[selfinflikted]

Glad you turned out OK, but not everyone does. I mean, some victims of real childhood abuse turn out just fine, too. I don't see that "turning out fine" justifies it, though.

I don't think turning out fine justifies it either. But I do consider spanking justified when a child still won't behave after other avenues of punishment have been exhausted.

Also, there are studies showing that children who are spanked tend to, in general, be more anti-social.

Don't know about that, all I have is my experience. None of the children I grew up with were anti-social, and we were all spanked when we misbehaved.

And to close this out, if spanking is so valid, why is it almost always referred to as a "last resort" to be used only when everything else doesn't?

What parent wants to cause their child pain? That's probably why.

The only inherent difference that I can see between spanking and time-outs or discussions or terse commands or grounding or removing privileges or physical restraint is that it involves pain. The outcome of spanking is the infliction of pain. And I can't see hurting kids unnecessarily as a good thing.

When children are too young to understand much else, they will understand pain. It's a great deterrent.

 

[jpcedotal]

Timeouts, grounding, counseling, making them watch Oprah over and over, whatever you feel is the right discipline for your child, who cares? Just make sure it works or at 13 when they tell you NO and/or pop you, the "understanding parent", in the mouth, don't stand in disbelief...remember back to that disrespectful kid in Wal-Mart you begged to quit screaming, then gave in to so others would stop staring...

at least, you never spanked though, at least you got that to stand by as you cash a check for bail money...sheesh

 

[selfinflikted]

I never did. I'm just trying to understand the mindset of someone who would willingly inflict unnecessary pain on their child.

Aha! That's my point! Sometimes the pain is necessary.

 

[jpcedotal]

I never did. I'm just trying to understand the mindset of someone who would willingly inflict unnecessary pain on their child.

Hey, we aint ever going to see eye to eye.

If u have kids and you don't spank and it seems to be working...fine.

I have kids, I spank when necessary, it works.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Skaloop]

Timeouts, grounding, counseling, making them watch Oprah over and over, whatever you feel is the right discipline for your child, who cares? Just make sure it works or at 13 when they tell you NO and/or pop you, the "understanding parent", in the mouth, don't stand in disbelief...remember back to that disrespectful kid in Wal-Mart you begged to quit screaming, then gave in to so others would stop staring...

at least, you never spanked though, at least you got that to stand by as you cash a check for bail money...sheesh

Spanking is more likely to lead to that sort of anti-social behaviour once the kids are older, so you're more likely to be the one putting up bail money or getting popped in the mouth (once they're bigger than you).

What's so wrong with a kid saying no, anyway?

 

[dies-l]

Again, if it works then yeeeeeeeee-haaaaaaaaw!!!! Just make sure it works and you are not just lying to yourself. I mean, is that your kid in Wal-Mart screaming and pitching a fit because you wont buy him that toy? Do your kids at any age tell you no? Each of mine has but that was a loooong time ago. If you find yourself pleading with your kids to stop a certain behavior, especially in public, then it is time to try something else. I don't argue with my kids. I don't make deals with my kids.

That's all I am saying. Spanking is a legitimate form of discipline, not the only form.

My kids have been through hell and back already (through no fault of their mother's and mine). Sending my kids to bed without any supper and/or hitting them in any way, shape or form (and, I believe you acknowledged that spanking is a form of hitting, albeit and acceptable one) would send them into a fear cycle that would make their behavior much much worse or would have no impact at all. Granted my situation is different than 99% of parents, but I can't help thinking that if effectively disciplining a child who is excessively prone to very poor decision-making involves no hitting and no depriving them of basic human needs (e.g., food), why would these be necessary for children without such a proneness? But, given my kids' situation, I have to acknowledge that they are very well behaved most of the time.

To be honest, I don't know how I feel about spanking in general. I tend to lean towards believing that it is never appropriate, but I also acknowledge that my situation makes my sensitivities a little higher than they might otherwise be.

 

[Skaloop]

Aha! That's my point! Sometimes the pain is necessary.

In what way?

 

[selfinflikted]

In what way?

If a child is dead-set on, for example, doing something that is harmful (I mean actually harmful, not just the fleeting sting of a spanking) to himself or someone else but is too young to understand the consequences of his actions, a little spank on the hand to discourage that behavior is completely warranted, imo.

 

[selfinflikted]

What's so wrong with a kid saying no, anyway?

If I were to dispute my parents' word by telling them "No" when they told me to do something (a chore, or whatnot), I would've gotten a spanking. But I know better than to dispute what my parents say - because I got spanked once for doing it.

 

[Skaloop]

If a child is dead-set on, for example, doing something that is harmful (I mean actually harmful, not just the fleeting sting of a spanking) to himself or someone else but is too young to understand the consequences of his actions, a little spank on the hand to discourage that behavior is completely warranted, imo.

If you can get close enough to swat them, you're close enough to just grab hold of them.

 

[selfinflikted]

If you can get close enough to swat them, you're close enough to just grab hold of them.

Right. And then you set them down, and they do it again.. and again...

 

[Skaloop]

If I were to dispute my parents' word by telling them "No" when they told me to do something (a chore, or whatnot), I would've gotten a spanking. But I know better than to dispute what my parents say - because I got spanked once for doing it.

What if you had a good, legitimate reason for saying no?

And how is saying no harmful (actually harmful, not the fleeting sting of a spank)?

 

[selfinflikted]

What if you had a good, legitimate reason for saying no?

And how is saying no harmful (actually harmful, not the fleeting sting of a spank)?

Saying "no" isn't harmful, but extremely disrespectful. What good, legitimate reason would I have for not sweeping off the back porch when dad told me to?

Dad: "Son, how about go sweep off the back porch. I'm going to get ready to grill those steaks in a few."

Son: "No."

Dad: "Say wha..!?"

*bonk*

That's pretty much how it would've gone in my house as a kid

 

[jpcedotal]

Spanking is more likely to lead to that sort of anti-social behaviour once the kids are older, so you're more likely to be the one putting up bail money or getting popped in the mouth (once they're bigger than you).

What's so wrong with a kid saying no, anyway?

There is ZERO proof that kids who get spanked are more likely to hit when they are older. That is probably the biggest lie out there about spanking.

That undisciplined kid in Wal-Mart will though, it is almost a guarantee.

Kids should never tell their parents no, unless asked a yes or no question.

 

[jpcedotal]

Saying "no" isn't harmful, but extremely disrespectful. What good, legitimate reason would I have for not sweeping off the back porch when dad told me to?

Dad: "Son, how about go sweep off the back porch. I'm going to get ready to grill those steaks in a few."

Son: "No."

Dad: "Say wha..!?"

*bonk*

That's pretty much how it would've gone in my house as a kid

ditto..in the back of the head with a open head...more times than once.

 

[jpcedotal]

Let's say I tell my kid to go get something out of the shed. He is not going to tell me no. He might say "Dad I don't want to...There are too many spiders"...but he aint gonna just say no. That's is the result of good parenting. He says it with no fear but he does understand that if a direct statement from me is not followed there better be a legitimate reason for it. He also understands that if there is, there will be no repercussions.

So where is the great wrong I have committed as a parent?

btw, this happened over the weekend with my seven year old...we went together and committed violent acts to a couple of spiders (there was hitting involved)...and got the axe I sent him after.

 

[dies-l]

Unsubscribing now. I don't think I can follow the advice in my signature line if I stay in this conversation. Some people just have radically different ideas of what makes a good parent than I do.

 

[ebia]

What's so wrong with a kid saying no, anyway?

Indeed it's important for kids development that they win the argument sometimes.