Brain injuries and salvation

cloudyday2

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1) The fallen entities that chose to [try to] do their own will also do not have free will; they have limited will as well.

2) Because these entities were of a higher order of creation, and they sought to swindle us the first thing out of our creation (instead of teaching and guiding according to the Most High God), they will be judged for their actions.
I assume you are referring to the serpent in the Garden of Eden (Gensisis 3) and/or the sons of God (Genesis 6) and maybe even the apocryphal texts such as Enoch? How do you reconcile those stories with the history of humans revealed through biology, geology, paleontology, archaeology, etc?

Another question: what was the purpose of Jesus of Nazareth given that certain people are already saved due to something within their created nature (their name written in the book of life)?

I like many features of your theology, but those are a couple of areas that seem like problems. I find myself wishing that I could believe in Christianity. I have felt that I have seen God and/or Jesus a couple of times, and I would like to believe that those experiences were objectively real. Also I like the teachings of Jesus in the gospels. Unfortunately for me, I look at the facts, and I am forced to conclude that it is more likely that I imagined things.
 
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ViaCrucis

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In many cases brain damage causes personality changes. I know a couple of people who suffered some brain injuries (apparently), and now they are both extremely self-centered and deceitful and uncaring. They were both Christians prior to the change. I don't know if they consider themselves Christians now. This is the sort of personality change that probably inspired belief in demon possession.

What this demonstrates to me is that freewill is an illusion. In light of that, it seems that many of the Christian ideas about salvation are either wrong or incredibly arbitrary.

Just wondering what others think.

This is one example of why I think there is a problem in the idea of salvation as something we accomplish, or what we might call "instruction manual salvation", i.e. the idea that one follows along all these certain steps and we'll achieve some sort of saved status and God is happily satisfied (as long as we did it right). It's another reason I appreciate the Lutheran tradition as much as I do, because the emphasis and locus of salvation is removed from what -I- do, and instead is on what God has done. Ultimately it's not about me winning the religious lottery, or getting my t's crossed and i's dotted, it's about God's love and compassion for the world of sinners, and His work to rescue, redeem, and heal it. It's not my business, or any other human person's business, to figure out who is "in" and who is "out". Our ecclesiastical mission as God's people is simply to love our neighbor, and have the Gospel on our lips--the message of God's love for the world, and what He has accomplished through Jesus. It's not about me convincing anyone to subscribe to what I believe, it's not about arguing people into my religion, it's not about beating someone over the head with my Bible, or dissecting all the behaviors of others to try and divine whether they are "in" or "out".

Instead I trust in God, that the God who so loved the world to send His only-begotten Son is the God who, as I read in the Scriptures, desires all to be saved. He is a merciful, kind, and loving God and He is more than capable of being a far superior judge than I could ever be, and is far more loving, merciful, good, and forgiving than I could ever comprehend, let alone be myself.

So I would rather trust in Him, and worry about my own relationships in life, how I can love those around me and serve my neighbor then run around being the religious or moral busybody about everyone else. I have enough logs in my own eye.

If I confess Christ as Savior then I confess the God of love and mercy, who judges with justice and compassion.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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FireDragon76

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In many cases brain damage causes personality changes. I know a couple of people who suffered some brain injuries (apparently), and now they are both extremely self-centered and deceitful and uncaring. They were both Christians prior to the change. I don't know if they consider themselves Christians now. This is the sort of personality change that probably inspired belief in demon possession.

What this demonstrates to me is that freewill is an illusion. In light of that, it seems that many of the Christian ideas about salvation are either wrong or incredibly arbitrary.

Just wondering what others think.

I don't see how, consider we (Lutherans) do not believe salvation is a result of our will.
 
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Kaon

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I assume you are referring to the serpent in the Garden of Eden (Gensisis 3) and/or the sons of God (Genesis 6) and maybe even the apocryphal texts such as Enoch? How do you reconcile those stories with the history of humans revealed through biology, geology, paleontology, archaeology, etc?

No human should allow another human to control the trajectory of their soul. Moreover, humans LIE - including scientists, and academia. I learned math and physics languages on my own so that I can handle and battle the academics that would try to inject their own ideas into me as culturally acceptable and intellectually necessary.

When I said one needs to do research, one needs to do it with discernment. This plane of existence is nowhere near what it has been presented as, and remember what runs this plane of existence.

We are told explicitly that a spiritual entity with power rules things in reality, yet we scoff at certain things as if the world couldn't be so occult and diabolical. So, in a nutshell I don't LIE to myself about the reality of this plane of existence. I do not seek academics or peers to substantiate my life, but I make sure to stay abreast of any "languages" used to confuse, confound and distract (sociology, politics, mathematics, chemistry, physics, etymology, etc.) This allows me to, with ease, dismiss much of what I hear since I can verify it myself.

Remember, if you can't reproduce it in a lab, it is just conjecture. If the results can't be independently tested by another party to produce the same results, it is just an experiment. The human race has been weeded out of the academic verification process by means of [grant] money. So, people have to "take the word" of academics when they should talk to their Father. I don't play that game; I have been in academia, and most all of us don't realize who is purposing all of this, and why until it is too late. A strict social and intellectual hierarchy within academia allows this to happen - social and functional compartmentalization.



Another question: what was the purpose of Jesus of Nazareth given that certain people are already saved due to something within their created nature (their name written in the book of life)?

The thing is the Most High God already knows who His people are - since we were thought of by His will to make us. However, not everyone of the "people of the Most High God" will accept his salvation (eternally rejecting it because of the strengh of the current curse over them). On the other hand, there may be some who are not Hebrews, who will be better Hebrews than the ones who squandered Salvation. It should follow that the Redeemer would sacrifice Himself for His people - whoever follows the Most High God. Remember, He directly told us His mother, and brother (family) are those who follow the will of the Most High God.

The book of life is, will be, and has been written. Our minds, and our psychology has accepted the linearity of time - because "science" says so. The Most High God was telling the truth when He demanded we choose who to follow. He can teach you anything in any amount of time to any degree.

But, you actually do have to trust HIM over the world. Don't you know people who you do for, and they sit and complain because they can't even see the sacrifices or things you do for them? We do that to the Most High God every moment we lack faith. Faith is just as important as knowledge: when knowledge fails, we need faith, and in the presence of knowledge, there is no need for faith.

The world's science is outstandingly outdated, unbelievably erroneous and downright misleading. I would never prepare a paper or scholarly content (anymore) for academia because it begs people to be taught remedially. It begs people to ask other humans to reprogram their mind about the world around them. Humans never use new knowledge for the overall good of mankind EXCEPT what they are allowed to by principalities and powers way above them in spirit. He has already told us. It would be used for a weapon, or to further exploit the poor/disadvantage as It always has.

It turns a spirit-seeking person into a creature dependent on a system - run by other creatures. You can trust the Most High God can teach you the math, physics and chemistry to navigate this plane of existence as you are supposed to - according to Him, or you can trust a bunch of men who can't even find a way to live beyond 200 years.

I like many features of your theology, but those are a couple of areas that seem like problems. I find myself wishing that I could believe in Christianity. I have felt that I have seen God and/or Jesus a couple of times, and I would like to believe that those experiences were objectively real. Also I like the teachings of Jesus in the gospels. Unfortunately for me, I look at the facts, and I am forced to conclude that it is more likely that I imagined things.

Your imagination is real; who told you it was fake, or unreliable, and that it was to be dismissed or meaningless?

The Word of God requires us to be transformed. But, that takes time (sanctification), and trust on the human's part. It is a relationship; another individual can't teach one how to have an intimate relationship with the Most High God. This is especially true when human relationships are abysmal.

We are all confused believing we are erudite; the definition of foolish.
 
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FireDragon76

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What makes you think there is a fundamental difference? I can tell you the answer to that. You think you made a choice whenever your brain could not have predicted your own behavior based on the circumstances. That does NOT mean that a brilliant supercomputer could not have predicted your behavior based on the circumstances.

I think you assume free will must mean our behavior is random and unpredictable, and that's a philosophical assumption not all Christians make.
 
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cloudyday2

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I think you assume free will must mean our behavior is random and unpredictable, and that's a philosophical assumption not all Christians make.
Hmmm. I have a series of lectures on the topic of freewill. If I can get the energy to watch them then I might be able to agree or disagree. I'm having difficulty imagining how freewill could be defined with respect to accepting or rejecting Jesus such that brain injuries resulting in drastic personality changes (usually for the worse) would not be troubling.
 
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Robban

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Hmmm. I have a series of lectures on the topic of freewill. If I can get the energy to watch them then I might be able to agree or disagree. I'm having difficulty imagining how freewill could be defined with respect to accepting or rejecting Jesus such that brain injuries resulting in drastic personality changes (usually for the worse) would not be troubling.

Ephesians 6:17?
 
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juvenissun

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In many cases brain damage causes personality changes. I know a couple of people who suffered some brain injuries (apparently), and now they are both extremely self-centered and deceitful and uncaring. They were both Christians prior to the change. I don't know if they consider themselves Christians now. This is the sort of personality change that probably inspired belief in demon possession.

What this demonstrates to me is that freewill is an illusion. In light of that, it seems that many of the Christian ideas about salvation are either wrong or incredibly arbitrary.

Just wondering what others think.

It does take a brain damage to do that. A Christian could change to a non-Christian due to any reason. One of my good friend made that conversion in about two years.
How do you feel about that?
 
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juvenissun

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I recall a poster many years ago in a different forum. One of his famous responses was, "God will judge them fairly". That is probably the best reply that we can give to this situation and many others for that matter as well.

One way to think about this is to ask: what would that person look like when he is resurrected?
It happened that a message in the Book of Job hit me as an answer a few years ago. A Christian will be resurrected as a Christian at his spiritual prime.
 
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LOL, yep, the "helmet of salvation" might be the solution to this dilemma :)

Was given three volumes "The Christian in complete armour"
A modernized abridgement of the Puritan Classic by
William Gurnell.
It is all about Ephesians 6:10-20.

I don,t think I have opened them that much, but was reminded now in and with this thread.

Maybe I should read them at least a little.

Was browsing through and found among other things this;

Stand in your own place-do not usurp anothers.
Five considerations to persuade all to stand.

1, You lose God,s approval when you leave your appointed place to work outside your calling.

2, You lose God,s protection when you ignore His restrictions as to place and calling.

3, God does not hold you accountable for another man,s work.

4, You suffer needlessly when you bear burdens God never intended you to carry.

5, A flighty spirit usually carries men out of their place and calling.

Not bad would reckon, may read some more later.
 
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cloudyday2

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It does take a brain damage to do that. A Christian could change to a non-Christian due to any reason. One of my good friend made that conversion in about two years.
How do you feel about that?
The difference is that typically a Christian becomes a non-Christian through a gradual process that is a series of choices (assuming there is some freewill). In other words, the seeds of apostasy already exist in the Christian and he/she chooses to nurture them until finally the faith is gone. That is entirely different from a normal Christian who unluckily suffers a brain injury and becomes a sociopath with no empathy, no remorse, no ethics, no morals, etc.
 
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juvenissun

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The difference is that typically a Christian becomes a non-Christian through a gradual process that is a series of choices (assuming there is some freewill). In other words, the seeds of apostasy already exist in the Christian and he/she chooses to nurture them until finally the faith is gone. That is entirely different from a normal Christian who unluckily suffers a brain injury and becomes a sociopath with no empathy, no remorse, no ethics, no morals, etc.

The process could be different in every case, but the consequence is the same. It is the consequence you are arguing about, not the process.
 
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FireDragon76

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Hmmm. I have a series of lectures on the topic of freewill. If I can get the energy to watch them then I might be able to agree or disagree. I'm having difficulty imagining how freewill could be defined with respect to accepting or rejecting Jesus such that brain injuries resulting in drastic personality changes (usually for the worse) would not be troubling.

Lutherans do not believe our salvation is the result of accepting Jesus. It is the result of election in Christ.
 
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In many cases brain damage causes personality changes. I know a couple of people who suffered some brain injuries (apparently), and now they are both extremely self-centered and deceitful and uncaring. They were both Christians prior to the change. I don't know if they consider themselves Christians now. This is the sort of personality change that probably inspired belief in demon possession.

What this demonstrates to me is that freewill is an illusion. In light of that, it seems that many of the Christian ideas about salvation are either wrong or incredibly arbitrary.

Just wondering what others think.

I would prefer to say that free will is sometimes fragile. we are a complex system of wills based on our DNA, society, experience and ect. the flesh body seems to me to be more of a secondary covering than it is the core of what we are.

and Christianity speaks of the the inner and outer man. the inner is the core person. the outer is subject to various outside influences thus why it is called the outer man.

Christianity presupposes another kind of reality called spirit. it claims we have a spirit. materialism already thinks that such a reality does not exist.

so it can be hard to correctly judge someone since there is both an appearance and the reality of themselves.
 
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DennisTate

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In many cases brain damage causes personality changes. I know a couple of people who suffered some brain injuries (apparently), and now they are both extremely self-centered and deceitful and uncaring. They were both Christians prior to the change. I don't know if they consider themselves Christians now. This is the sort of personality change that probably inspired belief in demon possession.

What this demonstrates to me is that freewill is an illusion. In light of that, it seems that many of the Christian ideas about salvation are either wrong or incredibly arbitrary.

Just wondering what others think.


There are some encouraging exceptions to this general rule though.

 
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