Bottleneck Theory vs The Flood vs The Tribe of Benjamin

[Larniavc]

In bottleneck theory, you have a population tooling along at a given rate: say 1 billion strong.

Then a bottleneck event* occurs, and the population is severely reduced: say to 1 million.

At this point, two things can happen: a bottleneck recovery or a bottleneck extinction.

I contend that God intervened after the Flood and prevented a bottleneck extinction.

Genesis 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

Later on, the tribe of Benjamin came very close to extinction in the Battle of Gibeah (Judges 19-21), but God intervened and brought it back.

Thoughts?

* catastrophism in action

As God can do anything, anything you might dream up for God to have done is possible so it does not matter what your theory is.

If the flood was true but God removed all physical evidence and made it look exactly as it would look if the flood had not happened would be consistent with him doing it.

If the flood was true but God made the water to not affect the world as we would expect and made it look exactly as it would look if the flood had not happened would be consistent with him doing it.

Any theory, no matter how elaborate could be explained by goddidit so why not just say goddidit?

 

[-57]

Forgot to include a link! Thanks for pointing that out! Here is where the article is found.

Population bottleneck - Wikipedia

The sources it is based on are located at its page bottom.

A population bottleneck (or genetic bottleneck) is a sharp reduction in the size of a population due to environmental events (such as earthquakes, floods, fires, disease, or droughts) or human activities (such as genocide). Such events can reduce the variation in the gene pool of a population;

That's nice....but, I did notice they didn't even attempt to show what an increased heterozygosity and purer DNA would have on a population. They kinda brushed it aside.

 

[AV1611VET]

Even if we allow for 16, that is 10-20% of the bare minimum required. And that is presuming no genetic defects and no one died prematurely due to accidents or diseases.

We have a saying: Little is much when God is in it.

 

[Grandpa2390]

Abiogenesis is a scientific theory,....not exactly a myth as opposed to magic/miracles

Nobody here I rejecting that this is a religion.
But you do realize that Evolution teaches the same thing right? the difference is that evolution claims more time. If Evolution is true then there would still have had to be a bottleneck to explain the world's current population. And if evolution is true, then we still came from the amoeba that was somehow created. So you still have to deal with the problem of genetic diversity. You just choose to put your faith in time creating enough mutation as opposed to us putting our faith in God.
They are both religious. Otherwise you agree that it is possible to repopulate the planet from 2 people, you just need millions of years?

 

[Larniavc]

But this is not the natural world, God ordained this.

Goddidit.

 

[-57]

Abiogenesis is a scientific theory,....not exactly a myth as opposed to magic/miracles

And for it to happen it would require ... a miracle.

 

[Jadis40]

Go with this:

Genesis 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

What do you think that blessing was in the form of?

(Hint: Octomom would be envious.)

That's reading something into the text that even isn't there. Even if there were twins, maybe triplets at the most, those babies still need to grow up and reach puberty before they're having children of their own. That's the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Larniavc]

There is genetic evidence that a bottleneck did occur and that the population numbers dropped far below the level that you consider untenable for repopulation and yet here we are!

Genetic bottleneck theory

But not for every organism (which we would expect from a planet wide flood).

So no flood without goddidit.

 

[JD16]

We have a saying: Little is much when God is in it.

Of course, as I said with Goddidit anything goes

 

[Grandpa2390]

80-160 as per the article I linked above.

There are Atheist and Agnostics here too if you notice, unless of course we don't count as part of this forum lolz

right but this is Christianforums. so everything relates in some way to christianity (unless specifically said otherwise). particularly in a thread that directly mentions biblical events. That is just my reasoning. But I am only human

 

[JD16]

And for it to happen it would require ... a miracle.

No miracle required. Science does not deal with that stuff,....that's a monopoly of religion

 

[-57]

As God can do anything, anything you might dream up for God to have done is possible so it does not matter what your theory is.

If the flood was true but God removed all physical evidence and made it look exactly as it would look if the flood had not happened would be consistent with him doing it.

If the flood was true but God made the water to not affect the world as we would expect and made it look exactly as it would look if the flood had not happened would be consistent with him doing it.

Any theory, no matter how elaborate could be explained by goddidit so why not just say goddidit?

You said..."If the flood was true but God removed all physical evidence and made it look exactly as it would look"

Have you ever seen a fossil of a dead animal buried in the flood sediment?

 

[JD16]

Nobody here I rejecting that this is a religion.
But you do realize that Evolution teaches the same thing right? the difference is that evolution claims more time. If Evolution is true then there would still have had to be a bottleneck to explain the world's current population. And if evolution is true, then we still came from the amoeba that was somehow created. So you still have to deal with the problem of genetic diversity. You just choose to put your faith in time creating enough mutation as opposed to us putting our faith in God.
They are both religious. Otherwise you agree that it is possible to repopulate the planet from 2 people, you just need millions of years?

Evolution does not account for the beginnings of life, that's abiogenesis,....and no with just 2 people, thats the end of the line, not the start of the human race I'm afraid lolz

 

[-57]

No miracle required. Science does not deal with that stuff,....that's a monopoly of religion

OK, then how did it happen? Talk about a bottleneck.....imagine a time when there was only one simple cell....and now we have all of the life we see today. Your bottleneck theory claims life should not have even begun.

 

[Grandpa2390]

You said..."If the flood was true but God removed all physical evidence and made it look exactly as it would look"

Have you ever seen a fossil of a dead animal buried in the flood sediment?

I have. I think the world look exactly like a flood hit it.
Something happened.

If nothing else something created all of this oil and coal. And it didn't happen by animals lying around on the ground waiting to be buried. Some disaster buried massive amounts of plant matter and animals and squished them in order to create the deposits we see today.

If people don't want to believe in a flood... fine, whatever. their choice. But they have to believe in something. Because we are not getting new oil deposits based on the evolutionist theory of how oil and coal deposits were created.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Who said that?

Matthew 5
18: For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

Matthew 24
14: And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come.


The 1,000 year reign of Christ just started 2,000 years ago when Jesus was the first to testify to the knowledge of Christ. He knew there would be many others who came after him after his body was to be killed by the heathens who didn't understand the knowledge of Christ that came from the words God had him preach called the gospel of God. In fact, the religious Jews hated the knowledge that came from the gospel.

2 Peter 3
1 This is now the second letter that I have written to you, beloved, and in both of them I have aroused your sincere mind by way of reminder;
2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles.
3 First of all you must understand this, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own passions
4 and saying, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things have continued as they were from the beginning of creation."
5 They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago, and an earth formed out of water and by means of water,
6 through which the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire!
13 But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.
15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.
18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Revelation 6
9: When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
10: they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"
11: Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Mark 13
24: "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light,
25: and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heaven will be shaken.

Now that the 1,000 year reign of Christ has been completed, we wait for the day of the Lord to happen very soon.

Here's some examples:

1 Peter 1:20, 1 Corinthians 10:11, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Galatians 1:3-14, Revelation 3:10-11, Hebrews 1:1-2, Hebrews 10:24-25, 1 John 2:18, Romans 13:11-12, 1 Corinthians 7:27-31, James 5:8-9, Matthew 10:23, Matthew 16:27-28, Matthew 24:25-34, Matthew 26:63-64, Luke 21:22, Luke 21:28-31

 

[JD16]

OK, then how did it happen? Talk about a bottleneck.....imagine a time when there was only one simple cell....and now we have all of the life we see today. Your bottleneck theory claims life should not have even begun.

What makes you think it was 1 single cell? And if a single sperm is able to fertilize an egg, and cell division starts from that and eventually a human baby is form.....is that really too far fetch for your imagination?

 

[-57]

Evolution does not account for the beginnings of life, that's abiogenesis,....and no with just 2 people, thats the end of the line, not the start of the human race I'm afraid lolz

You forgot the two people had a much greater percentage of heterozygosity than we have now....plus...a much purer genetics...DNA.

 

[Grandpa2390]

Evolution does not account for the beginnings of life, that's abiogenesis,....and no with just 2 people, thats the end of the line, not the start of the human race I'm afraid lolz

I skipped abiogenesis and went straight to the amoeba evolving into animals. Evolution had to take the limited biological diversity in an amoeba and come up with all that we see.

 

[-57]

What makes you think it was 1 single cell? And if a single sperm is able to fertilize an egg, and cell division starts from that and eventually a human baby is form.....is that really too far fetch for you imagination?

Oh, it's that simple.