Bottleneck Theory vs The Flood vs The Tribe of Benjamin

[AV1611VET]

In bottleneck theory, you have a population tooling along at a given rate: say 1 billion strong.

Then a bottleneck event* occurs, and the population is severely reduced: say to 1 million.

At this point, two things can happen: a bottleneck recovery or a bottleneck extinction.

I contend that God intervened after the Flood and prevented a bottleneck extinction.

Genesis 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

Later on, the tribe of Benjamin came very close to extinction in the Battle of Gibeah (Judges 19-21), but God intervened and brought it back.

Thoughts?

* catastrophism in action

 

[Jadis40]

Or the simplest explanation, and in my mind the evidence we've found overwhelmingly uncovered is that there was never a planet-wide flood, hence no bottleneck, hence there was no need for intervention.

 

[AV1611VET]

Or the simplest explanation, and in my mind the evidence we've found overwhelmingly uncovered is that there was never a planet-wide flood, hence no bottleneck, hence there was no need for intervention.

Even a local flood would have brought Noah's line close to extinction.

 

[JD16]

In bottleneck theory, you have a population tooling along at a given rate: say 1 billion strong.

Then a bottleneck event* occurs, and the population is severely reduced: say to 1 million.

At this point, two things can happen: a bottleneck recovery or a bottleneck extinction.

I contend that God intervened after the Flood and prevented a bottleneck extinction.

Genesis 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

Later on, the tribe of Benjamin came very close to extinction in the Battle of Gibeah (Judges 19-21), but God intervened and brought it back.

Thoughts?

* catastrophism in action

That is, of course presuming an actual 'bottleneck event' did occur....and in your example,....a population of 1 million can easily repopulate the earth given time,....not so with just 8 people

 

[AV1611VET]

....and in your example,....a population of 1 million can easily repopulate the earth given time,

It depends on the robustness of the survivors: they may not be genetically fit to recover.

 

[JD16]

It depends on the robustness of the survivors: they may not be genetically fit to recover.

1 million is pretty viable, in fact there is a theory that a natural disaster about 75,000 years ago and drop the human population to about 3-10k in total

"According to the genetic bottleneck theory, between 50,000 and 100,000 years ago, human populations sharply decreased to 3,000–10,000 surviving individuals.It is supported by genetic evidence suggesting that today's humans are descended from a very small population of between 1,000 and 10,000 breeding pairs that existed about 70,000 years ago"

Toba catastrophe theory - Wikipedia

 

[AV1611VET]

1 million is pretty viable, in fact there is a theory that a natural disaster about 75,000 years ago and drop the human population to about 3-10k in total

I somehow don't think 1 million people is a guarantee that a bottleneck recovery will always occur.

And for the record, 8 people after the Flood is 4 times the number of people who existed on the earth just 7 chapters earlier.

 

[CrystalDragon]

2 Peter 3
1 This is now the second letter that I have written to you, beloved, and in both of them I have aroused your sincere mind by way of reminder;
2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles.
3 First of all you must understand this, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own passions
4 and saying, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things have continued as they were from the beginning of creation."
5 They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago, and an earth formed out of water and by means of water,
6 through which the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire!
13 But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.
15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.
18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Be patient, the day of the Lord is right around the corner now.

Haven't people been saying "the day of the Lord is right around the corner" since the days of the Apostles? It was expected to be in their lifetimes, even.

 

[AV1611VET]

Be patient, the day of the Lord is right around the corner now.

Halleujah and amen!

 

[Grandpa2390]

I somehow don't think 1 million people is a guarantee that a bottleneck recovery will always occur.

And for the record, 8 people after the Flood is 4 times the number of people who existed on the earth just 7 chapters earlier.

I like your signature.
I believe there is plenty of evidence for a global flood. A bottleneck certainly did occur at some point in the "recent" past for some reason or another. That is without doubt in my mind.

 

[AV1611VET]

Haven't people been saying "the day of the Lord is right around the corner" since the days of the Apostles? It was expected to be in their lifetimes, even.

Yes -- and those who complain about it are called "scoffers."

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

 

[JD16]

And for the record, 8 people after the Flood is 4 times the number of people who existed on the earth just 7 chapters earlier.

Again, that is presuming that the history of mankind is as told by the genesis account,....science says otherwise.

You do understand the dangers of inbreeding right? The severe consequences that it can have on the bloodline,.....european monarchs used to have that problem

Charles II of Spain - Wikipedia

 

[CrystalDragon]

Yes -- and those who complain about it are called "scoffers."

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

But it's said multiple times in the Bible that the day of the Lord was going to occur any day now for them. That they would still be alive at the time. There's only a small window of time that can be considered "soon" or "at the door", or "we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord"...

It was all clearly supposed to happen in the lifetime of the Apostles. It didn't.

 

[AV1611VET]

I like your signature.

Thank you!

I like your caption!

 

[JD16]

Haven't people been saying "the day of the Lord is right around the corner" since the days of the Apostles? It was expected to be in their lifetimes, even.

People have been making prediction ever since,...and of course whenever it did not happen, the date is extended

Predictions and claims for the Second Coming of Christ - Wikipedia

 

[Grandpa2390]

maybe in the natural world 8 people are not genetically diverse enough to populate the earth. I was reading about health issues and the difficulty getting pregnant after so long. (maybe it isn't due to our diet, eh? lol)
But this is not the natural world, God ordained this.

 

[-57]

In bottleneck theory, you have a population tooling along at a given rate: say 1 billion strong.

Then a bottleneck event* occurs, and the population is severely reduced: say to 1 million.

At this point, two things can happen: a bottleneck recovery or a bottleneck extinction.

I contend that God intervened after the Flood and prevented a bottleneck extinction.

Genesis 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

Later on, the tribe of Benjamin came very close to extinction in the Battle of Gibeah (Judges 19-21), but God intervened and brought it back.

Thoughts?

* catastrophism in action

One has to define just what a bottleneck would look like..how to measure it. I see it this way.
There was a much greater percentage of heterozygosity in the pre-Flood genome compared to the percentage we see today. The other is the amount of junk DNA...species are de-evolving.

 

[AV1611VET]

You do understand the dangers of inbreeding right?

Eyaaa ... without looking it up, I think it's called ... um ... well ... I'll look it up.

Inbreeding depression.

 

[Jadis40]

That is, of course presuming an actual 'bottleneck event' did occur....and in your example,....a population of 1 million can easily repopulate the earth given time,....not so with just 8 people

Exactly. I've done the math. It doesn't add up. (No pun intended.)

Let's go from the alleged date for the flood that's commonly cited by YECs - 2348. Ignoring the historical fact that there were numerous civilizations that existed before 2348 BC and in 2349 BC. Here's what I came up with:

2348 BC 8 people.
2349 BC (Assuming Noah's wives and the 3 sons wives were all pregnant and had a baby within the year given for the flood, that means that at most there were 12 people. (Not accounting for the possibility of twins.)
2350 BC Let's say they had 4 more babies each... that will get you to 16 people.

See where I'm going with this?

It's nonsense, and I'm honest enough to recognize it's nonsense.

 

[Radrook]

That is, of course presuming an actual 'bottleneck event' did occur....

There is genetic evidence that a bottleneck did occur and that the population numbers dropped far below the level that you consider untenable for repopulation and yet here we are!

Genetic bottleneck theory

According to the genetic bottleneck theory, between 50,000 and 100,000 years ago, human populations sharply decreased to 3,000–10,000 surviving individuals.[36][37] It is supported by genetic evidence suggesting that today's humans are descended from a very small population of between 1,000 and 10,000 breeding pairs that existed about 70,000 years ago.[38]

Population bottleneck - Wikipedia