Bottleneck Theory vs The Flood vs The Tribe of Benjamin

[JD16]

Exactly. I've done the math. It doesn't add up. (No pun intended.)

Let's go from the alleged date for the flood that's commonly cited by YECs - 2348. Ignoring the historical fact that there were numerous civilizations that existed before 2348 BC and in 2349 BC. Here's what I came up with:

2348 BC 8 people.
2349 BC (Assuming Noah's wives and the 3 sons wives were all pregnant and had a baby within the year given for the flood, that means that at most there were 12 people. (Not accounting for the possibility of twins.)
2350 BC Let's say they had 4 more babies each... that will get you to 16 people.

See where I'm going with this?

It's nonsense, and I'm honest enough to recognize it's nonsense.

“Magic number” for space pioneers calculated

"The “magic number” of people needed to create a viable population for multi-generational space travel has been calculated by researchers. It is about the size of a small village – 160. But with some social engineering it might even be possible to halve this to 80."

Even if we allow for 16, that is 10-20% of the bare minimum required. And that is presuming no genetic defects and no one died prematurely due to accidents or diseases.

 

[Grandpa2390]

Exactly. I've done the math. It doesn't add up. (No pun intended.)

Let's go from the alleged date for the flood that's commonly cited by YECs - 2348. Ignoring the historical fact that there were numerous civilizations that existed before 2348 BC and in 2349 BC. Here's what I came up with:

2348 BC 8 people.
2349 BC (Assuming Noah's wives and the 3 sons wives were all pregnant and had a baby within the year given for the flood, that means that at most there were 12 people. (Not accounting for the possibility of twins.)
2350 BC Let's say they had 4 more babies each... that will get you to 16 people.

See where I'm going with this?

It's nonsense, and I'm honest enough to recognize it's nonsense.

No I don't see where you are going with this. Population growth is exponential.
It is pretty well established that the population of the Earth was around 300 million around the time of Christ. today after 2000 years it is 7.5 billion. 2400 years before that was the flood. is 2400 years enough time to get from 8-300 million? I'd say say so. It isn't a linear growth.

they all have 4 children per person. then each of those 20 children has 4 children per person. then each of they have 4 children per person. etc.

 

[JD16]

There is genetic evidence that a bottleneck did occur and that the population numbers dropped far below the level that you consider untenable for repopulation and yet here we are!

Genetic bottleneck theory

Citation needed

 

[JD16]

No I don't see where you are going with this. Population growth is exponential.
It is pretty well established that the population of the Earth was around 300 million around the time of Christ. today after 2000 years it is 7.5 billion. 2400 years before that was the flood. is 2400 years enough time to get from 8-300 million? I'd say say so. It isn't a linear growth.

With just 8 or even 16 people, we would have breed ourselves retarded and died out long ago

 

[Jadis40]

No I don't see where you are going with this. Population growth is exponential.
It is pretty well established that the population of the Earth was around 300 million around the time of Christ. today after 2000 years it is 7.5 billion. 2400 years before that was the flood. is 2400 years enough time to get from 8-300 million? I'd say say so. It isn't a linear growth.

they all have 4 children per person. then each of those 20 children has 4 children per person. then each of they have 4 children per person. etc.

Nonsense. Toddlers are not having children of their own. Those children have to reach child-bearing age, and a 1 or 2 year old isn't there yet.

 

[Grandpa2390]

With just 8 or even 16 people, we would have breed ourselves retarded and died out long ago

no doubt! But like I said in a previous post. In the natural world it is probably not possible for 8 people to populate the Earth. But this was moved by God. For all of you out there would want to believe in a God pushed evolution, this is where I believe in it.
Notice we are not discussing Adam and Eve because I am pretty sure everyone accepts that, if we are to accept that there was an Adam and Eve, they were Genetically perfect to populate the Earth.
Why can't God have made Noah's family and the 3 wives genetically different enough to populate the Earth with just the amount of defect we have today. and we do have a lot of defects. You can't blame everything on the chemicals they are putting in our food.

 

[Grandpa2390]

Nonsense. Toddlers are not having children of their own.

lol, funny.

 

[-57]

Exactly. I've done the math. It doesn't add up. (No pun intended.)

Let's go from the alleged date for the flood that's commonly cited by YECs - 2348. Ignoring the historical fact that there were numerous civilizations that existed before 2348 BC and in 2349 BC. Here's what I came up with:

2348 BC 8 people.
2349 BC (Assuming Noah's wives and the 3 sons wives were all pregnant and had a baby within the year given for the flood, that means that at most there were 12 people. (Not accounting for the possibility of twins.)
2350 BC Let's say they had 4 more babies each... that will get you to 16 people.

See where I'm going with this?

It's nonsense, and I'm honest enough to recognize it's nonsense.

Sure, I see where you're going with it....but you error....babies have babies....and those babies have babies. Add to that a much greater percentage of heterozygosity and purer DNA....and your bottleneck problem vanishes.

 

[Jadis40]

Sure, I see where you're going with it....but you error....babies have babies....and those babies have babies. It's not linear as you suggest.

Right. But they need to reach puberty, and at the very least that's somewhere around 11-15 years of age or so.

 

[-57]

Right. But they need to reach puberty, and at the very least that's somewhere around 11-15 years of age or so.

To that I say..so what?

I also edited the post during your reply.

 

[JD16]

no doubt! But like I said in a previous post. In the natural world it is probably not possible for 8 people to populate the Earth. But this was moved by God. For all of you out there would want to believe in a God pushed evolution, this is where I believe in it.
Notice we are not discussing Adam and Eve because I am pretty sure everyone accepts that, if we are to accept that there was an Adam and Eve, they were Genetically perfect to populate the Earth.
Why can't God have made Noah's family and the 3 wives genetically different enough to populate the Earth with just the amount of defect we have today. and we do have a lot of defects. You can't blame everything on the chemicals they are putting in our food.

If we allowed for the Goddidit magic/miracle anything goes, but here in the real world.....

And, no, not everyone believes in the Adam and Eve account,...there are many cultures that have their own myths about the beginnings of mankind

 

[AV1611VET]

But it's said multiple times in the Bible that the day of the Lord was going to occur any day now for them.

The "day of the LORD" begins at the return of Christ at the end of the Tribulation period (or it begins at the Rapture ... I can't remember).

Either way, the dispensation of Grace (the Church Age) was a mystery in the Bible.

Notice here where Jesus, quoting Isaiah 61:1-2 ...

Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. ← [Jesus stops here]
Luke 4:20a And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down.

... purposely stops reading at the comma?

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, ← [Jesus stops here] and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

He did that because there was to be at least another 2000 years of a new dispensation (Grace, Church Age).

It was a mystery that even the angels didn't know.

1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

 

[Radrook]

Citation needed

Forgot to include a link! Thanks for pointing that out! Here is where the article is found.

Population bottleneck - Wikipedia

The sources it is based on are located at its page bottom.

 

[-57]

If we allowed for the Goddidit magic/miracle anything goes, but here in the real world.....

And, no, not everyone believes in the Adam and Eve account,...there are many cultures that have their own myths about the beginnings of mankind

Yes. Many believe lightning struck a puddle of mud...causing abiogenesis then biogenesis...germ to man.

 

[JD16]

Forgot to include a link! Thanks for pointing that out! Here is where the article is found.

Population bottleneck - Wikipedia

The sources it is based on are located at its page bottom.

Yes I know about bottleneck theory, spend the last two days trying to explain that to AV lolz,

And its impossible for a population to thrive or even survive with just 2,8 or even 16 people,...the lack of genetic diversity would ensure our extinction

 

[AV1611VET]

One has to define just what a bottleneck would look like..how to measure it. I see it this way.
There was a much greater percentage of heterozygosity in the pre-Flood genome compared to the percentage we see today. The other is the amount of junk DNA...species are de-evolving.

I agree.

Here is one of my posts from another thread:

Either way, how can you call it a bottleneck when you don't know what you're comparing it to prior to the Flood?

If we have 100 ingredients today, I take it you're assuming there were 100 before the Flood, and now there should be 50?

If so, then has anyone considered that there may have been 200 before the Flood and got bottlenecked down to 100?

You need a point of comparison, and you don't have one.

Science is myopic.

 

[JD16]

Yes. Many believe lightning struck a puddle of mud...causing abiogenesis then biogenesis...germ to man.

Abiogenesis is a scientific theory,....not exactly a myth as opposed to magic/miracles

 

[Grandpa2390]

If we allowed for the Goddidit magic/miracle anything goes, but here in the real world.....

yes. If we allow for God, anything is possible.
But if we are going to rely on the natural laws of the universe, then probably not. I think I read the number is like 50 (or 500? correct me if I am wrong). that's verifiable. We have islands in the Pacific, and the royal family, etc.

And, no, not everyone believes in the Adam and Eve account,...there are many cultures that have their own myths about the beginnings of mankind

well obviously... I was speaking about Christianity. That is kind of implied on this forum isn't it?

 

[AV1611VET]

See where I'm going with this?

Go with this:

Genesis 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

What do you think that blessing was in the form of?

(Hint: Octomom would be envious.)

 

[JD16]

yes. If we allow for God, anything is possible.
But if we are going to rely on the natural laws of the universe, then probably not. I think I read the number is like 50 (or 500? correct me if I am wrong). that's verifiable. We have islands in the Pacific, and the royal family, etc.


well obviously... I was speaking about Christianity. That is kind of implied on this forum isn't it?

80-160 as per the article I linked above.

There are Atheist and Agnostics here too if you notice, unless of course we don't count as part of this forum lolz