Both Saturday and Sunday Sabbath are Wrong

[bugkiller]

Let's go with that.
Do you have any other god's before God?
Do you create any graven images that you hold in esteem and worship?
Do you take the Lord's name in vain?
Do you go to church?
Do you honor your parents?
Do you commit murder?
Do you commit adultery if you're married?
Do you steal?
Do you lie?
Do you covet?

Sorry but I don't follow your whole list. It seems to me your attacking the individual poster.

bugkiller

 

[BABerean2]

Do you go to church?

The Church of Jesus Christ is not a building.
It is a believer who is indwelled with the Holy Spirit, through faith in Christ.

A building does not become a Church until it is entered by a Christian.

We do not go to Church. Instead the Church goes to meet with other members of the Church.

This could occur on any day of the week.

My wife and I attend a Wednesday night Bible study, in which members of the Church get together to study God's Word.

However, we can see from scripture that Jesus did meet with His disciples on the first day of the week after He rose from the dead and the early Church did assemble on the same day.

However, they did not call it a Sabbath.

Joh_20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.


Act_20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

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1Co_16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.


Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

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[love2obey]

based on the argument presented, we then are wrong to wait until sunset in the western hemisphere since in the EAST is already Sabbath for up to 14 hours. WE just need something to pick on. It is what it is.

 

[BABerean2]

based on the argument presented, we then are wrong to wait until sunset in the western hemisphere since in the EAST is already Sabbath for up to 14 hours. WE just need something to pick on. It is what it is.

We have to start with the understanding from Galatians chapter 3 where the Apostle Paul says the Sinai covenant was "added" 430 years "after" the promise to Abraham "until" the Seed could come to whom the Promise was made. In Galatians 3:16 we find that the Abrahamic Promise was made only to Christ.

We also find in Galatians chapter 4 Paul comparing the Sinai covenant to bondage that we are to "cast out".
We are children of the New Covenant found in Hebrews chapter 8, which has made the Old covenant "obsolete".

The 4th commandment was given as a "Sign" for the Children of Israel to keep, as part of the Sinai covenant.

We find in Hebrews chapter 8 that they broke the Sinai covenant.

We find in Acts 20:7 that the early Church met on the first day of the week.
However, there is no clear commandment for the early Church to worship on any certain day.

Some people cannot seem to cast out the Sinai covenant of bondage as Paul commanded.


Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

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[bugkiller]

opps.

bugkiller

 

[BABerean2]

Sabbath in the New Covenant
Former Adventist Pastor, Dale Ratzlaff

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Sabbath in the New Covenant
Former Adventist Pastor, Dale Ratzlaff

I decided to look him up and found this interesting:

http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/about.html

Dale and Carolyn Ratzlaff founded Life Assurance Ministries in 1999. Dale is author of Sabbath in Christ, The Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists, The Truth About the Seventh-day Adventist Truth, and Adventist to Christian.
Dale was an Adventist pastor for 13 years, seven of which he spent teaching Bible at Monterey Bay Academy , La Selva Beach, California.
During his doctoral studies at Andrews University in the 1980’s, Dale became convinced that the investigative judgment could not be supported by Scripture. Since he could no longer teach this doctrine, he and his wife Carolyn left the Adventist denomination. Dale and Carolyn host a Former Adventist Fellowship Bible study near Phoenix, Arizona......................



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[Circle Christ]

"When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease being honest." (Richard Humpal)

Can we calculate the date of the Sabbath using the Gregorian calendar?

 

[Circle Christ]

Sabbath in the New Covenant
Former Adventist Pastor, Dale Ratzlaff

I'm not inclined to watch nearly one hour of video. But I thank you for sharing that for consideration in this topic.

The 10 commandments that carry over into the new covenant have eight commands that start with, thou shalt not.
Two commands tell us to remember.
Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.
And remember to honour our father and mother.

Then God said, "Let Us [plural, God and the Word] make man in Our image, according to Our likeness." . . . So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (Genesis 1:26-27)

Who was that creator? And who was speaking in the beginning?

John 1:1-4

Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath.

And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. (Genesis 2:2-3)


Remember the Sabbath day and keep it Holy. Now we worship Yeshua/Jesus. Who was God in the beginning. The Word that brought all into being.

 

[BABerean2]

The 10 commandments that carry over into the new covenant

First of all, the 10 commandments are the Sinai covenant which was "added" 430 years "after" the promise to Abraham "until" the seed (Christ) could come to whom the promise was made.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The law served because of transgressions until the seed (Christ) could come.
We find that same little word "till" in Matthew chapter 5.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Christ fulfilled the Sinai covenant on the Cross with the words "It is finished."

At that moment the veil in temple was ripped completely in half, signaling the end of the sacrifices, the Levitical priesthood, the Sabbath, and the whole Old Covenant system.


Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

In the text above the Apostle Paul compares the Sinai covenant to bondage and compels the Galatian church to "cast out" the Sinai covenant of bondage.

Let it go. It has served its purpose.

.

 

[Circle Christ]

First of all, the 10 commandments are the Sinai covenant which was "added" 430 years "after" the promise to Abraham "until" the seed (Christ) could come to whom the promise was made.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The law served because of transgressions until the seed (Christ) could come.
We find that same little word "till" in Matthew chapter 5.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Christ fulfilled the Sinai covenant on the Cross with the words "It is finished."

At that moment the veil in temple was ripped completely in half, signaling the end of the sacrifices, the Levitical priesthood, the Sabbath, and the whole Old Covenant system.


Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

In the text above the Apostle Paul compares the Sinai covenant to bondage and compels the Galatian church to "cast out" the Sinai covenant of bondage.

Let it go. It has served its purpose.

.

No, I think not. In fact I would say it would be dangerous to my spiritual walk if I were to follow your teachings on this matter.
When Jesus said it is finished, he was referring to the sin debt he had been born to pay as the propitiation for the sins of the world. Luke 19:10

He was not saying the ten commandments that he had reiterated to his disciples to follow, as all pertain to love as the greatest command and from whence they sprang. He was saying he had finished his mission that was prophesied in the old testament.

 

[BABerean2]

as all pertain to love as the greatest command and from whence they sprang.

What did Jesus say about love?

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Imagine a giant stone foundation and hanging on a corner of this giant stone we see hanging the smaller tablets of the Sinai covenant given to the children of Israel.

Written upon the giant foundation stone we find written... "Love God" and "Love Neighbor".

This is what Jesus plainly said.

In Acts chapter 15, Peter describes the Mosaic law as a "yoke" they could not bear.

In Galatians 3 we find the Sinai covenant was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed could come to whom the promise was made.

In Galatians 4 Paul describes the Sinai covenant as a covenant of "bondage" that the Galatian church was to "cast out".

In Hebrews 8:13 we find that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".

It is not my teachings on the matter. It is what the text plainly says.
The Sinai covenant is a covenant of works that only Christ could keep.
If you think you can do what Christ did, then you would be able to save yourself by keeping the Sinai covenant.
You only have two choices, either works or Grace.

Somehow you must reconcile what Peter and Paul said in Acts 15 and Galatians 3 and 4.
Please explain these texts, if you think it is my teaching.

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[yeshuaslavejeff]

It looks like a lot of the works and grace type discussions I've seen -
- trying to make a system work* by the letter of the law,
claiming "love" excuses the sin of doing so.....
all the while disobeying Jesus proving lack of love for Him.

*or also frequently choosing to believe a school of thought, and then
defending the school of thought (literally no matter what)
instead of seeking God's Kingdom in the matter and in all things.

 

[Circle Christ]

What did Jesus say about love?

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Imagine a giant stone foundation and hanging on a corner of this giant stone we see hanging the smaller tablets of the Sinai covenant given to the children of Israel.

Written upon the giant foundation stone we find written... "Love God" and "Love Neighbor".

This is what Jesus plainly said.

In Acts chapter 15, Peter describes the Mosaic law as a "yoke" they could not bear.

In Galatians 3 we find the Sinai covenant was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed could come to whom the promise was made.

In Galatians 4 Paul describes the Sinai covenant as a covenant of "bondage" that the Galatian church was to "cast out".

In Hebrews 8:13 we find that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".

It is not my teachings on the matter. It is what the text plainly says.
The Sinai covenant is a covenant of works that only Christ could keep.
If you think you can do what Christ did, then you would be able to save yourself by keeping the Sinai covenant.
You only have two choices, either works or Grace.

Somehow you must reconcile what Peter and Paul said in Acts 15 and Galatians 3 and 4.
Please explain these texts, if you think it is my teaching.

It is your teaching because you are going from your understanding of the passages and are prescribing your knowledge is superior to others.

The first five books of the Bible are The Law. The Pentateuch. Which contained 613 mitzvot (commandments) . And within that number were three classifications. Ceremonial, Civil, and Moral.
The first four books of the new testament are the Gospels. God's good news of the old testament prophecies of Messiah fulfilled.
(Matt. 5:17), "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill."

Unfortunately it is often thought that that passage means God fulfilled the mitzvot and there are no more laws of God in effect.
Jesus fulfilled the law that he crated in the beginning, as God. And in his form as Messiah he demonstrated how the laws pointed to Him and how He would live it as the unblemished man. The sinless redeemer.

The laws classified under the Ceremonial and the Civil applied to Jews of the day. Jesus fulfilled the laws and united as that perfect sacrifice all people under the blood of his sacrifice for the sins of the world. The laws, Ceremonial and Civil, that pertained to Jews atonement were fulfilled by his death. The moral laws, the Decalogue, are the moral commands. And they all pertain to love of God and or love of our neighbor.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

That is what Jesus meant when he said those words reported in Matthew 22:40. Love of God, love of our neighbor as we love ourself, on those two directives, decrees, hang all the law, the 614 mitzvot. And the prophets. Which would be the writings in the major and minor prophets books of the old testament.
Major Prophets Books
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Lamentations
Ezekiel
Daniel

Minor Prophets Books
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi

As Matthew Henry said: "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets; that is, This is the sum and substance of all those precepts relating to practical religion which were written in men’s hearts by nature, revived by Moses, and backed and enforced by the preaching and writing of the prophets. All hang upon the law of love; take away this, and all falls to the ground, and comes to nothing."

Jesus death united Gentile and Jew as the church, the people of God. The Ceremonial law that included sacrifices for atonement of sin was no more. Jesus was the perfect and last sacrifice for the sins of the world. The Civil law pertained the Hebrews daily living in community. The Moral laws pertained to right conduct. Of self, and toward others.

The laws of God were innate in nature, codified by Moses, and fulfilled perfectly in Jesus Christ.

The ten commandments today, the Decalogue, is not works salvation. Rather, it is a reminder of right conduct. Righteous living. Because by Grace we are saved. That does not mean the Christian makes a habit of sinning because they are saved by Grace.
They do not steal. They do not lie. They do not covet. They do not murder. They do not commit adultery. They do not dishonor their mother and father. They worship God and no other. And they remember his Sabbath, because Jesus is the Lord of that Sabbath that was made for man by God in the beginning.

 

[Circle Christ]

dbl post

 

[BABerean2]

It is your teaching because you are going from your understanding of the passages and are prescribing your knowledge is superior to others.

If what is written in the text of Acts 15:10, Galatians 3:16-19, and Galatians 4:24-31 means something other than what I have posted, then you please explain it to us.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


Otherwise, you are attempting to side with the Judaisers.

.

 

[Hank77]

I decided to look him up and found this interesting:

http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/about.html

Dale and Carolyn Ratzlaff founded Life Assurance Ministries in 1999. Dale is author of Sabbath in Christ, The Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists, The Truth About the Seventh-day Adventist Truth, and Adventist to Christian.
Dale was an Adventist pastor for 13 years, seven of which he spent teaching Bible at Monterey Bay Academy , La Selva Beach, California.
During his doctoral studies at Andrews University in the 1980’s, Dale became convinced that the investigative judgment could not be supported by Scripture. Since he could no longer teach this doctrine, he and his wife Carolyn left the Adventist denomination. Dale and Carolyn host a Former Adventist Fellowship Bible study near Phoenix, Arizona.......................

I would note that there are many Evangelicals that would be helped by watching this video, not just Adventists and other Sabbath day promoters. I can tell you that there are many ritual law keepers and self-righteousness keepers in the Evangelic denominations. I personally thank God for Grace preachers.

I'm not inclined to watch nearly one hour of video. But I thank you for sharing that for consideration in t

In the Law which takes precedence, circumcision on the the 8th day or the Sabbath?
Paul said that physical circumcision meant nothing in Christ. YIKE! I can see the Judaizers beating their chests and beating Paul.

The ten commandments today, the Decalogue, is not works salvation. Rather, it is a reminder of right conduct. Righteous living. Because by Grace we are saved. That does not mean the Christian makes a habit of sinning because they are saved by Grace.

I don't know anyone who preaches that a Christian is given liberty to sin because of God's grace. Do you?

The whole argument, that we who know that the 10 Commandments are the Old Covenant just don't want to obey God and live in His righteousness, that we are teaching lawlessness, is nothing but a red herring.
When scripture clearly says that the 10 ARE the old covenant, then they ARE the old covenant. So unless you can point to a scripture in the NT that says one must keep the ritual day of the Sabbath, or must keep the old covenant, you are merely speaking from opinion.

They do not steal. They do not lie. They do not covet. They do not murder. They do not commit adultery. They do not dishonor their mother and father. They worship God and no other. And they remember his Sabbath, because Jesus is the Lord of that Sabbath that was made for man by God in the beginning.

Is the rest, the Sabbath, a one day a week ritual or is it resting in the Lord of the Sabbath each and every day?

Are you saying that if a child dishonors their parents, family honor, that they should be put to death? That is what the Law calls for, that is why the Mohammedans believe in honor killing. If you believe the 10 Commandments are of the New Covenant then that is the punishment for dishonoring the family. You cannot have it both ways. Either the 10 Commandments are for today and All the Instructions for how to obey them are for today, or the 10 Commandments are the Old Covenant which has been abrogated.
I find it interesting that you would quote Matthew Henry, a Calvinist, who said very clearly, in his commentary, that the Law had been abrogated/made obsolete/set aside.

 

[bugkiller]

It looks like a lot of the works and grace type discussions I've seen -
- trying to make a system work* by the letter of the law,
claiming "love" excuses the sin of doing so.....
all the while disobeying Jesus proving lack of love for Him.

*or also frequently choosing to believe a school of thought, and then
defending the school of thought (literally no matter what)
instead of seeking God's Kingdom in the matter and in all things.

 

[Circle Christ]

In the Law which takes precedence, circumcision on the the 8th day or the Sabbath?
Paul said that physical circumcision meant nothing in Christ. YIKE! I can see the Judaizers beating their chests and beating Paul.

Since I stated I did not watch the video it is impossible for you to pose this critique or question in my direction.

I don't know anyone who preaches that a Christian is given liberty to sin because of God's grace. Do you?

I was speaking to that one that claimed the moral covenant no longer applies.

The whole argument, that we who know that the 10 Commandments are the Old Covenant just don't want to obey God and live in His righteousness, that we are teaching lawlessness, is nothing but a red herring.

No, not when it is in a thread discussing the Sabbath.

When scripture clearly says that the 10 ARE the old covenant, then they ARE the old covenant. So unless you can point to a scripture in the NT that says one must keep the ritual day of the Sabbath, or must keep the old covenant, you are merely speaking from opinion.

No, I speak from having read the new testament. And even referred to the passages wherein Jesus reiterated the ten commandments. And told his disciples, who would have been raised on the law, that the law's Decalogue all hinged on Love. He being Lord of the Sabbath that was made for man, man was not made for the Sabbath, is Jesus carrying over what he said in the old covenant. Moral righteousness remains in place.
Thinking it does not is merely opinion. And that which contradicts Jesus' teachings.

Is the rest, the Sabbath, a one day a week ritual or is it resting in the Lord of the Sabbath each and every day?

I think I know the retort that will post but I have to ask. What do you say? Being your opinion about the Sabbath and moral righteousness is already on the thread here.

Are you saying that if a child dishonors their parents, family honor, that they should be put to death? That is what the Law calls for, that is why the Mohammedans believe in honor killing. If you believe the 10 Commandments are of the New Covenant then that is the punishment for dishonoring the family. You cannot have it both ways. Either the 10 Commandments are for today and All the Instructions for how to obey them are for today, or the 10 Commandments are the Old Covenant which has been abrogated.

Contrary statements are what make for a very confusing discussion. I'll attempt to wade through. You're saying here what you accused in my remarks prior. That the moral code of conduct is abolished is what you're saying here. And if that were the case then your arguing that the immoral opposite is allowed.

The moral covenant was not abrogated. That's why Jesus in life reiterated all of it. And then he died as the perfect sacrifice that proved what he said all those moral righteous behaviors, commands, hinged on. LOVE. Therefore, if one loves God they honor only him. If they love their neighbor as themselves they do not steal, covet, commit adultery with that neighbors spouse, they do not kill that neighbor.
And of all the ten commands that tell us what not to do, there are two, as I have said, that tell us to remember. Show me where Jesus told us not to remember his Sabbath day and keep it holy.When he is the Lord that created that Sabbath to be honored so.

I find it interesting that you would quote Matthew Henry, a Calvinist, who said very clearly, in his commentary, that the Law had been abrogated/made obsolete/set aside.

I'm glad you find it interesting. That takes nothing away from the quote that pertained to Matthew Henry.

 

[Circle Christ]

If what is written in the text of Acts 15:10, Galatians 3:16-19, and Galatians 4:24-31 means something other than what I have posted, then you please explain it to us.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


Otherwise, you are attempting to side with the Judaisers.

.

You may judge as you wish. Someone else here makes the same claim as if "Judaiser" is a slur. I speak of what Jesus said. And that which is written down as reporting his teachings. If that is objectionable to you that is between you and God.