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Born again morality as opposed to the worlds morality.

stevevw

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I haven't noticed ANYTHING different about Christians in terms of morality.
I am not sure what you mean. Different as in knowing moral right and wrong. I think fundementally all humans know the core morals whether Christian or not.

But it is in how this is actually lived out. The power to actually be that moral law. To break sins hold over human nature to actually be moral and Christlike.

If it is the case that all are sinners and that humans will sin without Christ. Then despite the words and even appearences in some way these other moral systems are hiding the truth that they cannot defeat sin and it will exist or be overlooked or rationalised away as not sin.

Sin is not always so obvious and wrongs in the name of good can fool people into believing it good. In fact this is the way satan works with the wolves. They take what is truth and good and pervert it so that it seems good in appearence but hides sin.
 
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fhansen

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I haven't noticed ANYTHING different about Christians in terms of morality.
I'd be tempted to agree-except for the overwhemling good, in terms of values and deeds, that Christians have introduced and accomplished in this world even as plenty others seem to remain unchanged, Christian in name only perhaps. But there have been those individuals and groups/orders who've taken the ball, the inspiration received from the faith given them, and ran with it, truly loving their enemies, building hospitals beginning already in the early centuries that served not only their "own kind" but everyone: the poor, the outcast, their persecutors. And then gobs more hospitals, orphanages, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, the development of the lower and upper educational systems in the west that ultimately impacted and drove education in the whole world to the benefit of all. The promotion of the arts and sciences and the pursuit of excellence in general were also marks of this ideal.

And this was based on a perspective that the universe is ultimately good and meaningful and just and unchaotic from its foundations with the prospect of a continued eternal existence unfathomably better than this temporal one-rife with the sin, pain, suffering and death that threatens to render our lives as meaningless, hopeless, chaotic, etc. even in the midst of the world's beauty, pleasure, and observable goodness.

Anyway, I've seem both sides of the coin, with "Christians" acting very "human", obeying their lower desires: lust for pleasure, wealth, status, power, etc, sometimes in the name of God, Himself, and often doing much harm in the process rather than being changed by God the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of love.
 
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Meowzltov

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I'd be tempted to agree-except for the overwhemling good, in terms of values and deeds, that Christians have introduced and accomplished in this world even as plenty others seem to remain unchanged,
Oh puhleeze. Like Jews haven't done enormous good? Tikkun olam (repair of the world) is a major value. There is nothing specific that you mention that we don't do too.
And this was based on a perspective that the universe is ultimately good
Actually, standard Christianity teaches that the fall corrupted the universe.
and meaningful and just and unchaotic from its foundations with the prospect of a continued eternal existence unfathomably better than this temporal one-rife with the sin, pain, suffering and death that threatens to render our lives as meaningless, hopeless, chaotic, etc. even in the midst of the world's beauty, pleasure, and observable goodness.
A strong belief in the afterlife is actually connected to fewer good works.
Anyway, I've seem both sides of the coin, with "Christians" acting very "human", obeying their lower desires: lust for pleasure, wealth, status, power, etc, sometimes in the name of God, Himself, and often doing much harm in the process rather than being changed by God the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of love.
Oh for sure. And I have no problem with that. Humans are what humans are. We may have an inclination to good,, but we also have an inclination to evil. There isn't a single group on the earth that doesn't have the good, the bad, and the ugly. :)
 
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fhansen

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Oh puhleeze. Like Jews haven't done enormous good? Tikkun olam (repair of the world) is a major value. There is nothing specific that you mention that we don't do too.
Oh. I wasn't comparing as much as reacting to your claim of there being no difference with Christians in terms of morality.
Actually, standard Christianity teaches that the fall corrupted the universe.
The Fall brougt evil into man's world. The universe remains good because everything God creates is innately good-because He is good. But darkness is certainly here as well now and it's our duty to fight against it.
A strong belief in the afterlife is actually connected to fewer good works.
Well, that speculative- maybe true for some who're foolishly antinomian or something but not for someone who knows that a good afterlife only awaits those who love mercy and walk justly with their God, etc. The obligation to do right actually becomes stronger but if there's no afterlife it doesn't much matter, does it? Like Paul says in 1 Cor 15,
If the dead are not raised,
“Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die."


And Rom 2:7:
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life."
Oh for sure. And I have no problem with that. Humans are what humans are. We may have an inclination to good,, but we also have an inclination to evil. There isn't a single group on the earth that doesn't have the good, the bad, and the ugly. :)
Yet we don't need to be overcome by evil but rather we can overcome it, by His power, in commumion with Him.
 
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Meowzltov

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Oh. I wasn't comparing as much as reacting to your claim of there being no difference with Christians in terms of morality.
That is absolutely correct, both that I said it, and the truth of it. Humans in general have a minority of people who are so exceptionally good, kind, compassionate, and just that others take notice. And there is a very small minority that is absolutely evil--considering how few there actually are, it's amazing the amount of harm they are able to do. And then there are the overwhelming majority of morally mediocre people in the middle, people who are kind to family and friends, and tend to dismiss others as not worth much thought.

I have not found any large subgroup of people that varies from that. Small groups? Sure. You'll find a toxic cult here or there, or a church exceptionally involved in helping the poor, the sick, and the marginalized. But as groups get larger and larger, the standard distribution inevitably surfaces.

In large groups like "Muslims," you have father and son terrorists shooting up Jews on a beach, and you have heros like Ahmed al Ahmed risking his own life and taking bullets in order to save Jewish lives. AND you have a whole awful lot of people who simply run away to protect their own lives.

fhanson, it's just human nature.
 
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fhansen

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fhanson, it's just human nature.
Ok....and yet humans can be educated, inspired, challenged to be better, improved upon. And a religion worth its salt would be one that would do just that, tying the pursuit of love and excellence to the existence of a most good and excellent Creator-God. The fact that humans will be humans, that all will behave badly at times with some behaving much "badder" than others doesn't mean that we can't expect and shouldn't demand ...better.

But even with those religions that truly call humans to the loftiest of goals, many folks are afraid of those kinds of heights if it means distancing themselves from the crowd, so religions can get dumb-downed and tainted as they also become increasingly cultural phenomena rather than guides to individual spritual growth towards God. Wearing the name Jew or Muslim or Christian doesn't necessarily mean much in itself or identify one as holy even if it should.

Then there's the fact that selfish human desires often mean the exploition or manipulation of religion as a means or justification for people's own ends, knowingly or not and despite the fact that they may actually be trampling upon the teachings of their own faith in the process.

Either way I also know the history of the large-scale positive effects that religion has had on this world and cannot just cavalierly dismiss that as well.
 
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Niels

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I'd be tempted to agree-except for the overwhemling good, in terms of values and deeds, that Christians have introduced and accomplished in this world
Oh puhleeze. Like Jews haven't done enormous good? Tikkun olam (repair of the world) is a major value. There is nothing specific that you mention that we don't do too.
The idea that Christians have done good things shouldn't imply that Jews haven't done similarly good things. Jesus brought the Lord to the gentiles, taught the spirit of the law, etc. In my experience, when Christians compare themselves to "the world" in terms of morality, the contrast is usually being made with atheists.

Along with sharing core values, Jews and Christians have made a tremendous contributions to education, science, healthcare, etc. There is a kind of ahistorical propaganda, however, that portrays atheism as a greater contributor to such things. Many tout a contemporary humanitarian and ethical stance as something unique to them without acknowledging that its foundations are steeped in Jewish and Christian ethics.

However, Christians often proselytize and are more numerous than Jews. Although without Jews there wouldn't be Christians, the scope of Christian impact is greater in terms of numbers. It doesn't mean Christians are more moral than Jewish people. If anything, one might argue that Christians are less moral when they're new believers and then become more moral over time. Not more moral than Jews or mature Christians, but more moral than they used to be.

To be clear, I think humans can be moral and ethical regardless of religious affiliation. I just think some traditions and schools of thought make this easier than others.
 
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fhansen

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To be clear, I think humans can be moral and ethical regardless of religious affiliation. I just think some traditions and schools of thought make this easier than others.
Relgion shoud make it obligatory-and attainable.
 
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partinobodycular

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To be clear, I think humans can be moral and ethical regardless of religious affiliation. I just think some traditions and schools of thought make this easier than others.

Relgion shoud make it obligatory-and attainable.

Instead, what religion tends to do is to make morality dogmatic. Which is quite understandable, because while 'love thy neighbor as thyself' is a noble sentiment to hold, it's a difficult one to apply. Especially when part of your mission statement also includes a call to 'do justly'.

If the rules aren't dogmatic then how can you possibly harmonize mercy and justice? What's merciful in one person's eyes is unjust in another's. It's cognitive dissonance on a societal scale.

So religion codifies it, institutionalizes it, gives it a divine authority, and calls it morality... but all that it really is, is our individual and collective sense of right and wrong.
 
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Meowzltov

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Ok....and yet humans can be educated, inspired, challenged to be better, improved upon. And a religion worth its salt would be one that would do just that, tying the pursuit of love and excellence to the existence of a most good and excellent Creator-God. The fact that humans will be humans, that all will behave badly at times with some behaving much "badder" than others doesn't mean that we can't expect and shouldn't demand ...better.

But even with those religions that truly call humans to the loftiest of goals, many folks are afraid of those kinds of heights if it means distancing themselves from the crowd, so religions can get dumb-downed and tainted as they also become increasingly cultural phenomena rather than guides to individual spritual growth towards God. Wearing the name Jew or Muslim or Christian doesn't necessarily mean much in itself or identify one as holy even if it should.

Then there's the fact that selfish human desires often mean the exploition or manipulation of religion as a means or justification for people's own ends, knowingly or not and despite the fact that they may actually be trampling upon the teachings of their own faith in the process.

Either way I also know the history of the large-scale positive effects that religion has had on this world and cannot just cavalierly dismiss that as well.
I never once stated that religion was a bad thing. I think that overall religion is a fantastic thing. It very much increases our well being. And yes, for those who DO want to improve themselves, religion offers them the tools to do so. Are there toxic exceptions to this rule? Sure. But the rule still exists.

None of that was the topic that I replied to. The assertion was made that Christians were better people. Are they? Are they better than Muslims? than Jews? than New Agers? than Buddhists? No.

If you are going to reply to me, please reply to what I'm actually saying, and to the point that I'm actually making. You spent considerable effort composing a reply to something we weren't even discussing.
 
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Meowzltov

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The idea that Christians have done good things shouldn't imply that Jews haven't done similarly good things.
It's shouldn't, but it happens all the time. The good that Christians have done is ROUTINELY brought out as an argument why they are the one, real, true religion.
Jesus brought the Lord to the gentiles, taught the spirit of the law, etc. In my experience, when Christians compare themselves to "the world" in terms of morality, the contrast is usually being made with atheists.
The common thinking is that if someone doesn't have a religious basis for their morality, they essentially are not going to have a sense of morality, and are therefore going to behave immorally. That line of reasoning is fraught with problems.
1. If a person lacks a religious (god-given) basis for their sense of morality, it really does NOT follow that they therefore have no sense of morality.
2. Atheists actually DO have a sense of morality, and can be morally exemplary people.

For example, secular humanism is an atheist worldview that grounds right and wrong in human reason, empathy, and concern for human well-being rather than in divine command or religious authority. A secular humanist would try to behave morally by promoting human dignity, minimizing harm, acting fairly and honestly, respecting individual rights, relying on evidence and critical thinking, and taking responsibility for improving society through compassion, justice, and cooperation.
Along with sharing core values, Jews and Christians have made a tremendous contributions to education, science, healthcare, etc. There is a kind of ahistorical propaganda, however, that portrays atheism as a greater contributor to such things.
I agree. Just as Christians have a tendency to presume Christians are more moral, I've encountered atheists who presume atheists are more moral.

It's the identical "us/them" mentality kicking in. "Us" are smarter, funnier, friendlier...and more moral.

Many tout a contemporary humanitarian and ethical stance as something unique to them without acknowledging that its foundations are steeped in Jewish and Christian ethics.
I'm not disagreeing that anyone born into our culture isn't shaped by Christian thought, which in turn is shaped by Jewish thought. But I would like to point out that if you look at pre-Jewish civilizations, you can find examples where the morality is civilly based, not theologically based. There was nothing religious about the Hammurabi code.

Judaism was the first religion to connect morality to the worship of a deity. That idea has since spread all over the globe. Today, we take it for granted that one of the things religion does is teach a person right from wrong. But it simply was not always that way. For most of homo sapiens' existence, morality has existed independent of religion.

And what that means is that the assumption that atheists will be more immoral is full of holes.
To be clear, I think humans can be moral and ethical regardless of religious affiliation. I just think some traditions and schools of thought make this easier than others.
I'm listening. I'm always open to the possibility that I'm mistaken. But my standards for evidence are quite high. I you are going to make this statement and have me take it seriously, you will need to produce the actual studies that show "religion x" produces people more inclined to "virtue a" than "religion y."
 
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partinobodycular

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I you are going to make this statement and have me take it seriously, you will need to produce the actual studies that show "religion x" produces people more inclined to "virtue a" than "religion y."

Oooo... I'm not sure that that's a jar that you really want to open. Because the dogmatist will happily point out society's moral failings. Pro-choice, homosexuality, and liberalism being particularly popular examples.
 
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fhansen

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Instead, what religion tends to do is to make morality dogmatic. Which is quite understandable, because while 'love thy neighbor as thyself' is a noble sentiment to hold, it's a difficult one to apply. Especially when part of your mission statement also includes a call to 'do justly'.

If the rules aren't dogmatic then how can you possibly harmonize mercy and justice? What's merciful in one person's eyes is unjust in another's. It's cognitive dissonance on a societal scale.

So religion codifies it, institutionalizes it, gives it a divine authority, and calls it morality... but all that it really is, is our individual and collective sense of right and wrong.
I think it'd be correct to say that religion denies that morality is only and strictly relative-maintaining that it's objective instead, buried in a universal collective and individual sense of right and wrong but not necessarily acted upon; the "natural law" within our consciences can be ignored, overriden, IOW.

Anyway, I believe that doing justly and loving neighbor as oneself cannot be separated, because love and justice go hand in hand. To treat my neighbor justly means that I won't kill him, steal from him, lie to him, covet his goods or wife, etc. And love is the authentic means to that justice. I could've worded my post in another way:

Religion must proclaim that love is obligatory for man-and guide him to the means of finding and embracing that love. If that's dogmatic, so be it, but I don't think there's any more crucial truth that would have the power to solve the individual's and world's problems- aside from that one. Having said that it would need to resolve the "problem of death" as well. OtherwIse there's not much point in or meaning to it all.
 
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partinobodycular

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Having said that it would need to resolve the "problem of death" as well. OtherwIse there's not much point in or meaning to it all.

For me, the 'problem of death' isn't a problem at all... it's just part of life. There's a beginning, a middle, and an end, and for me that's enough. I'm not even particularly happy about the manner in which I lived it, but I tried.

Other than that, I'm at peace with whatever may come... heaven, hell, or nothing at all
 
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Niels

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It's shouldn't, but it happens all the time. The good that Christians have done is ROUTINELY brought out as an argument why they are the one, real, true religion.

The common thinking is that if someone doesn't have a religious basis for their morality, they essentially are not going to have a sense of morality, and are therefore going to behave immorally. That line of reasoning is fraught with problems.
1. If a person lacks a religious (god-given) basis for their sense of morality, it really does NOT follow that they therefore have no sense of morality.
2. Atheists actually DO have a sense of morality, and can be morally exemplary people.
I'm not arguing that atheists can't be morally exemplary people. Rather, I'm saying that Christianity provides wisdom, guidelines, and a fresh start for morally bankrupt people to improve. To become right with the Lord. Jewish law also provides guidelines and wisdom, but Jews are usually raised with these. Some contemporary Christians are as well, but many have abandoned their faith. Meaning their faithfulness, to the Lord may be severely lacking. Atheists can arguably "better" Christians than many Christians, but that doesn't change where these morals came from.

If you want to go off on a tangent, I personally think morality and wisdom is from the creator of the universe regardless of where it's found. Not that I think all moral codes are good. I don't. Rather, I think all good morals are from the Lord. It's just more difficult to find them through some avenues than others. I'm not saying that slapping a "Christian" label on something makes it good either. Does it adhere to scripture with strong contextual support, or is it just out of context and given a spin that the authors didn't intend? Whether they are actually following what they claim to believe makes a difference.

For example, secular humanism is an atheist worldview that grounds right and wrong in human reason, empathy, and concern for human well-being rather than in divine command or religious authority. A secular humanist would try to behave morally by promoting human dignity, minimizing harm, acting fairly and honestly, respecting individual rights, relying on evidence and critical thinking, and taking responsibility for improving society through compassion, justice, and cooperation.
The idea of human dignity is enshrined in our religious traditions. That we are created (whether in an instant or through evolution) by the Lord in his image and therefore have innate value.

When atheism becomes political, human dignity is the first thing to go. Stalin, Pol Pot, Mau, etc. Theocracies also have a bloody history, but at least they can be judged against their scripture for violating the moral code of their own religion. The leaders of atheist governments cannot. Whatever dear leader wants goes, and the dignity of the individual is thrown into question if not thrown out entirely.

I agree. Just as Christians have a tendency to presume Christians are more moral, I've encountered atheists who presume atheists are more moral.

It's the identical "us/them" mentality kicking in. "Us" are smarter, funnier, friendlier...and more moral.
They often do. However, that is misguided. Christianity gives people struggling with moral issues guidelines to improve their lives. Along with a reason to feel grateful. They can also convert to Judaism in theory, but the process is more difficult.

I'm not disagreeing that anyone born into our culture isn't shaped by Christian thought, which in turn is shaped by Jewish thought. But I would like to point out that if you look at pre-Jewish civilizations, you can find examples where the morality is civilly based, not theologically based. There was nothing religious about the Hammurabi code.

Judaism was the first religion to connect morality to the worship of a deity. That idea has since spread all over the globe. Today, we take it for granted that one of the things religion does is teach a person right from wrong. But it simply was not always that way. For most of homo sapiens' existence, morality has existed independent of religion.

And what that means is that the assumption that atheists will be more immoral is full of holes.
Morality exists independently of religion. I don't disagree with that. What I'm suggesting is that it's easier to achieve a moral life by learning moral narratives and making peace with God (or the universe) than having to figure everything out on your own and being told that you're not intrinsically valuable. If an atheist is reasonably intelligent, privileged, has healthy self esteem, and has a contemplative demeanor, they can certainly live a morally exemplary life. Christianity, however, does not require being smart enough, contemplative enough, or otherwise good enough in the eyes of others to stand a chance.

I'm listening. I'm always open to the possibility that I'm mistaken. But my standards for evidence are quite high. I you are going to make this statement and have me take it seriously, you will need to produce the actual studies that show "religion x" produces people more inclined to "virtue a" than "religion y."
Whose moral code will we use to measure this? It will be important to compare those those who at least try to live by their claimed codes of conduct. Not because those who don't aren't true Scottsmans, but because the underlying moral codes are what's important.

We might compare those whose morality resembles the core teachings of Christianity and Judaism to those whose doesn't. We might also learn what narratives were influential in their lives and where those narratives came from. I suspect that we may find faithful Christians and Jews, conscientious followers of some far Eastern traditions, and some atheists who just happen to be nice people ranking near the top of the list. People who use Christian social circles for power and hedonistic materialists, however, I imagine might rank near the bottom.

Let's say we have roomful of people. Each of whom has a key that opens a door to harmonious existence. The fact that they need to actually use the key in order to open the door doesn't necessarily mean everybody who has a key will use it. But if they don't use it, that doesn't mean it isn't a good key.
 
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Meowzltov

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I'm not arguing that atheists can't be morally exemplary people. Rather, I'm saying that Christianity provides wisdom, guidelines, and a fresh start for morally bankrupt people to improve.
You'll get no argument from me on that issue. I think of it as the scaffolding upon which spirituality and character can be built.

I only chime in when I perceive someone to be claiming that Christians are a morally better group than others.
When atheism becomes political, human dignity is the first thing to go. Stalin, Pol Pot, Mau, etc. Theocracies also have a bloody history, but at least they can be judged against their scripture for violating the moral code of their own religion. The leaders of atheist governments cannot. Whatever dear leader wants goes, and the dignity of the individual is thrown into question if not thrown out entirely.
I dunno, Niels. I suspect if you ask an atheist whether the behavior of Stalinist USSR can be judged, he will say yes.

Anyhow, we agree on far, far, far more than we disagree on. :)
 
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Zceptre

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Christian's don't love others just because they believe in God. They only love others if they understand and fully believe in God's love for them. Until one sees how insane God's love for them is, they don't have a reason to love people they have never met before or people that do them wrong like Christ done when people wronged Him.

You can't give what you don't already have inside you to give and so you have to know and receive God's love to give God's love. You can't know it and receive it if you don't believe in it, and that is a prerequisite for getting anything. You'll never go to the post office to pick up a box you don't think exists if you believe the notice is a fat lie, like a "million dollar sweepstakes giveaway" that you just are not believing is real in your mailbox or a prize you won worth a few million at some particular location in your city "waiting for you to pick up."

1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.

John 4:14
but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

1 John 4:7-8
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

This is the reason for a "Christian" to actually offer selfless love to others including those they don't know. It isn't any credit due the person that they've realized or feel God's love. The credit is due to God, not a Christian. God loves everyone.

You can't force someone to love others with a rule book. Christians who don't love others like they are told to do in the Bible are not doing so because they haven't truly realized how much God loves them, or they haven't felt it, or accepted it, or haven't experienced it fully somehow. Christians have zero credit for anything they do and that includes any love passing through them as a conduit. People may not believe in God, but unless they receive love from somewhere they won't have a dime of love to give. It was Christ Himself that said we (Christians) can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). That is, without being fully immersed in His love someone will do something that will trigger a selfish or defensive response. Christ's love doesn't put Himself first, and without believing He conquered death we have a lot to lose if "this is it."

Hebrews 2:15
and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

1 Peter 2:23
who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously;

Who would do such an insane thing if Christ had not done it first? King David himself in the Bible wasn't turning the other cheek all the time! The Holy Spirit wasn't fully given yet nor the revelation of Christ's selfless sacrifice. It is the love of God one experiences and believes in, has trust in, that leads a person to love others because they are loved so powerfully themselves.

No Christian has any pride to be carried in their step when they do things for others and they aren't seeking morality. God done good to them, and so they do good to others. They were humbled, not exalted. If they are not abased, then they are driven by pride and not God's love and their deeds are in vain and for self glory.

1 Corinthians 13:2-3
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

1 Timothy 1:5
Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,


1 John 4:19 makes it clear no one starts off being loving first, but because God loved them first and proved it (Romans 5:8).

Christians are no different than anyone else, and God loves everyone regardless what some people who think they are special say. 1 John 4:8 doesn't say that God "does" love. It says that God "is" love. It is the essence of who He is to love people and no one is exempt from that. When a Christian does immoral things they shouldn't do they are falling short of God's glory (His love - Romans 3:23) and they simply lost sight of God's love for them or it was never truly established in their heart.

I certainly am no better than anyone on this Earth. I've likely been worst than most. I don't love people because I'm righteous. I love people because someone loved me when no one else could, and He loves them just the same as He does me.

No one else died to prove they loved me. People may not believe that Christ died for them, but I do, and that is the reason for the love I have for everyone now. Someone may say "well you are a horrible person then." Maybe I am, without Christ. With Him, I'm not.
 
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fhansen

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I never once stated that religion was a bad thing. I think that overall religion is a fantastic thing. It very much increases our well being. And yes, for those who DO want to improve themselves, religion offers them the tools to do so. Are there toxic exceptions to this rule? Sure. But the rule still exists.

None of that was the topic that I replied to. The assertion was made that Christians were better people. Are they? Are they better than Muslims? than Jews? than New Agers? than Buddhists? No.

If you are going to reply to me, please reply to what I'm actually saying, and to the point that I'm actually making. You spent considerable effort composing a reply to something we weren't even discussing.
Overall, I think that a person who calls themselves Christian and takes it seriously would at least have better odds of being a better person than they would otherwise, if that faith meant nothing to them. I think the same would be true of many religions. The worst problem might be zealots who define their religion according to their own preferences, and then proceed to commit atrocities in its name.

Another way to put it would be to say that there's a net overall increase in light in our world now than would exist without those religions, and that is directly connected to those individuals who've been inspired and changed by it.

And I didn't make it an us-vs-other-religions thing, or compare Christians to Jews; those two religions are too intermeshed IMO anyway. I only defended Christianity as being a force for positive morality affecting many people and ultimately contributing to strides in a variety of human justice issues.
 
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Meowzltov

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Overall, I think that a person who calls themselves Christian and takes it seriously would at least have better odds of being a better person than they would otherwise,...

And I didn't make it an us-vs-other-religions thing,
Do you see your two separate remarks above? Do you see how they contradict each other? You can't begin by saying a serious Christian will have better odds of being a good person than a non-Christian, and then turn around and say you aren't making it an us versus them thing.
 
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fhansen

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Do you see your two separate remarks above? Do you see how they contradict each other?
Well...no, not logically. I said being a serious Christian should give one an advantage in being a better person compared to not having any religion at all. And as I went on to say: "I think the same would be true of many religions."
 
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