Border Crisis

[Desk trauma]

Why not?

We so not have the infrastructure to accommodate an unlimited number of poor immigrants.

 

[Desk trauma]

How come?

Because your country has a better economy than mine isn't grounds for asylum.

 

[Ringo84]

Seems like bringing people here to work would stimulate the economy and provide more funding for the infrastructure we need.
Ringo

 

[Desk trauma]

Seems like bringing people here to work would stimulate the economy and provide more funding for the infrastructure we need.
Ringo

Not if it’s the unlimited flow you’re in favor of.

 

[Ringo84]

Not if it’s the unlimited flow you’re in favor of.

Who says that it would be an "unlimited" flow?
Ringo

 

[Valletta]

At the end of the day, the "border" between Mexico and the United States is imaginary - a fabrication consisting of agreements, probably more than a century old, that Mexico ends at one point and the US begins at that same point. For all of the difference it makes in real terms, Mexico could begin at the southernmost portion of Virginia....or South Carolina.

Spending all of this time, effort and money to "defend" an imaginary line against impoverished Central Americans fleeing their broken countries - which we had a big hand in breaking - seems like a massive waste. It seems that the phenomenon of enforcing strict lines between countries and requiring visas to move between them is a fairly recent one. I am in favor of freer movement between countries, because at the end of the day, one point on the map is not terribly different than another one.

I know that's not a particularly popular point of view, but I think it's a less wasteful and more humane one than concentration camps and complaining about caravans and migrant moms trying to find a better home for their children.
Ringo

I understand. Also every individual has the same rights, many of us were fortunate to have been born in this country. Unfortunately, we live in a world where there are gang members and drug dealers and terrorists. Borders define countries. It would have been far worse had President Trump not been allowed to ban flights from China. What make American special, that is, why do so many people want to come here? We are the only nation in the world that was founded recognizing that our rights come from God.
The rights that we have enjoyed, life and liberty and freedom of religion and speech, are oppressed in many other countries. Once those are abandoned, and it is happening here and now with the "thought police" mentality of Marxism, we will just be like any other country.

 

[wing2000]

The Trump administration would send them back to Guatemala or wherever they came from.

In some cases yes.

Now the word is that Biden is letting people in, that's why you sometimes see the Biden signs. With the cartels controlling the border areas the cartels decide who goes through and who carries in drugs to the U.S., who gets used in human trafficking, etc. I am worried that the administration is reversing everything because it was initiated by Trump. For example, the agreement by Biden to have strict fossil fuel controls here while letting China not have such controls for the next thirty years doesn't make a bit of sense. Why not just say we are temporarily going back to the Trump border controls?

No American President can control what desperate people want to believe - especially when powerful cartels conduct their own misinformation campaigns regarding US border policy. Under the previous administration, it tooks months of harsh, inhumane (and immoral) policies before it started to have an effect on the flows out of Central America. And according to reports, thousands have been staying in Mexico border cities desperately hoping they will get their chance to apply for asylum. The current surge was underway by the time Biden took office and even now, with the Biden Administration warning immigrants not to come, they will continue to come anyway. Until Central AMericans can live in their neighborhoods without the threat of daily murder, kidnapping etc, they will continue to come.

In addition to the Cartel/Gang violence, the region suffered two Cat 4 Hurricanes in as many weeks last year. Millions are living day to day with out basic shelter and food. Droughts have also impacted the ability of people to produce food for themselves.

A comprehensive US / Central American immigration policy is needed to address these problems which are the root of cause of illegal immigration.

 

[Speedwell]

What make American special, that is, why do so many people want to come here? We are the only nation in the world that was founded recognizing that our rights come from God.

I don't think that the Christian nationalist fantasies of right-wing Evangelicals figure largely in the thoughts of Central American refugees fleeing for their lives from failed states.

 

[Ringo84]

I understand. Also every individual has the same rights, many of us were fortunate to have been born in this country. Unfortunately, we live in a world where there are gang members and drug dealers and terrorists.

It's not at all clear that any of our border policies stops gang members, drug dealers and terrorists. But there's a lot of evidence that they stop people trying to find a better home for themselves.

If our inalienable rights come from God, and they are common to all regardless of nationality, then they belong just as much to "illegal" Central Americans, the Chinese, Muslims, and all peoples of the world as much as they do to us. That's what the Declaration of Independence is about: the concept of "rights derived from God" may (or may not be) common to America, but the rights themselves are not.
Ringo

 

[Desk trauma]

Who says that it would be an "unlimited" flow?
Ringo

The reality that millions wish to come here and if all restrictions were lifted a significant portion of those millions would come.

 

[Speedwell]

The reality that millions wish to come here and if all restrictions were lifted a significant portion of those millions would come.

How many of them would qualify for asylum?

 

[Ringo84]

The reality that millions wish to come here and if all restrictions were lifted a significant portion of those millions would come.

Is it? I'm not at all clear that this would be the case. And even if it was, I would argue that this would be a good reason to get infrastructure, a UBI, housing for all and other such things in place so that there wouldn't be as much of a "shock" to our system as you predict.

Or, to express it in a slightly different way: barring people because of what "might" happen is not particularly impressive to me.
Ringo

 

[Desk trauma]

Is it? I'm not at all clear that this would be the case. And even if it was, I would argue that this would be a good reason to get infrastructure, a UBI, housing for all and other such things in place so that there wouldn't be as much of a "shock" to our system as you predict.

Or, to express it in a slightly different way: barring people because of what "might" happen is not particularly impressive to me.
Ringo

I’m sorry you are not impressed by pragmatism.

 

[Ringo84]

I’m sorry you are not impressed by pragmatism.

Pragmatism is fine and has its place, but it shouldn't get in the way of providing help to people who need it - including immigrants.
Ringo

 

[mark46]

Yep.



Maybe it wouldn't be if it were more apparent how much money we'd be saving from defending an imaginary line, concentration camps, processing, etc.

It's a fairly recent phenomenon that we require documents to travel between countries. The traditional way has been for free movement between places regardless of borders. I'm more in favor of that than the system we have now, which tends to hurt the poorest the most (quite deliberately, I'm sure).
Ringo

You seem to misunderstand. If we adopted you approach, there would be 10 million coming from Central America, Africa and Asia. It is not a matter of the relatively small cost of protecting the borders. We can do that by intimidating Mexico with tariffs or money if border protection is all we want.

The most cost effective approach is probably to pay Mexico to keep folks away. Alternatively, we could consider Central America part of our sphere of influence and help build up those countries.

 

[Ringo84]

You seem to misunderstand. If we adopted you approach, there would be 10 million coming from Central America, Africa and Asia. It is not a matter of the relatively small cost of protecting the borders. We can do that by intimidating Mexico with tariffs or money if border protection is all we want.

The most cost effective approach is probably to pay Mexico to keep folks away. Alternatively, we could consider Central America part of our sphere of influence and help build up those countries.

Why would we want to keep people away in the first place, and where does this figure of 10 million come from?

This is a big country. We can accommodate more people than we think.
Ringo

 

[Aldebaran]

Yes, better to send them back to the streets of Mexico border cities....a much safer environment.

Do you know how many of them are testing positive for Covid 19?

"The number of migrants who have tested positive for the novel coronavirus after being released by the Border Patrol into Texas has nearly doubled, officials say.

Felipe Romero, a spokesperson for Brownsville, tells Fox News that 185 migrants dropped off and rapid-tested at the city’s main bus station have contracted the coronavirus – up from the 108 he disclosed last Wednesday.

As of Saturday, a total of 1,553 individuals since Jan. 25 have been tested for COVID-19 after coming across the U.S.-Mexico border there, Romero added."

Number of COVID-positive migrants released in Texas surges, officials say

Do we want them on the streets of America?

 

[Aldebaran]

Seems like bringing people here to work would stimulate the economy and provide more funding for the infrastructure we need.
Ringo

Then you're in favor of hiring illegals and having them work for less than minimum wage in the fields?

 

[Aldebaran]

Who says that it would be an "unlimited" flow?
Ringo

"It's an imaginary line", remember?

 

[mark46]

Why would we want to keep people away in the first place, and where does this figure of 10 million come from?

This is a big country. We can accommodate more people than we think.
Ringo

Voters are NOT accepting of open borders, welcoming anyone who wants in. There have always been restrictions and limitations, certainly since WWII.