Book

[FunToLive]

You say in your perception. Is your perception sufficiently attuned enough to distinguish the instructions of man and a God? Or to put it another way, do you trust your perception to the level where you would stake your eternity on it?



Because that’s not the point. Yahweh chose Israel to be a light to the nations from among the nations. But after the Flood, all knew of Yahweh, but spread from Noah and followed the whims of their own heart and all the nations developed from there. As to why Yahweh chose Israel, that story is in the Bible.



So you foresee a world where people are born and then touch and object and download all the information they need to know? It sounds awfully close to the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. As to why He didn’t create such a thing, I have personal theories, but nothing I can say with Scriptural certainty.



The Bible is a book of history as well as prophecy. The stories must be relayed honestly and accurately. If you wanted a more cheery “everything is awesome” book, there are plenty of others to choose from which will make you feel good. But the Bible is concerned with the truth – however it may seem to future generations who judge it by their transient standards.



I disagree with your assessment there and think it would benefit from deeper research. However, you are free to look into all religions to see what speaks to you. But in terms of global and historical impact – nothing comes close to the Bible, whether you believe it to be true or not.

Great responses. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I enjoyed reading and considering them.

Love & Shalom

No, I don’t trust my mind and my perception to know-it-all. It would be very foolish. That’s why I’m trying to study, learn, understand. But pride of course gets in the way of impartial seeking

You sound convincing in the sense “it is because it is”. Or God knows better, so who are you to question it.

Yes indeed.

I use this approach often with my children, as in hectic modern life there isn’t usually time for reasoning. Though I try to provide explanations whenever I can.

What if I don’t see God in the Bible, but people trying to find God or even play God Then I can’t accept such argument.

Well, 1/7 or 15% of the world many if ehom nominal - still not good enough for me, no matter how much you would try to convince me otherwise. My grandparents and beyond never even held a Bible in their hands or heard anything remotely good about the Christian Jesus, being Muslims. Billions people not reached. Limited coverage isn’t love to all. We invented the Internet and smartphones in almost every human being’s hands today, is God not smarter and more capable than us???

 

[FunToLive]

You say in your perception. Is your perception sufficiently attuned enough to distinguish the instructions of man and a God? Or to put it another way, do you trust your perception to the level where you would stake your eternity on it?



Because that’s not the point. Yahweh chose Israel to be a light to the nations from among the nations. But after the Flood, all knew of Yahweh, but spread from Noah and followed the whims of their own heart and all the nations developed from there. As to why Yahweh chose Israel, that story is in the Bible.



So you foresee a world where people are born and then touch and object and download all the information they need to know? It sounds awfully close to the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. As to why He didn’t create such a thing, I have personal theories, but nothing I can say with Scriptural certainty.



The Bible is a book of history as well as prophecy. The stories must be relayed honestly and accurately. If you wanted a more cheery “everything is awesome” book, there are plenty of others to choose from which will make you feel good. But the Bible is concerned with the truth – however it may seem to future generations who judge it by their transient standards.



I disagree with your assessment there and think it would benefit from deeper research. However, you are free to look into all religions to see what speaks to you. But in terms of global and historical impact – nothing comes close to the Bible, whether you believe it to be true or not.

Great responses. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I enjoyed reading and considering them.

Love & Shalom

The trees of Knowledge and of Life in Eden greatly intrigue me. All of Genesis 1-3 does.

Allegory? Fantasy? Of course, I don’t know and can’t tell. I wasn’t there

Is there a grain of truth in those stories or total misconceptions? Like, I’ve read that the fall could be a dangerous teaching as people are basically good, but telling them they are not makes them act accordingly...

Traditionally my people have other creation mythologies, with a male and female deity. Some ancient western semitic and broader middle eastern sources seem to shed more light on the story Genesis 1-3. But those stories survived in fragments and so a relation isn’t undoubtedly evident.

Like they say water in Gen 1 is a remnant of idea of primordial goddess Tiamat of universal sea and chaos.

Damning woman by desire of man is a little puzzling to me, too.

 

[Tone]

How can you accept it?

Accept "it" or "Him"?

I accept it because it lines up with what the Spirit communicates.

to clarify more, it seems strange that God if he is so powerful and performed unbelievable miracles and so cares about people having some knowledge, could not do direct book writing or download information into heads directly etc

Seems far-fetched that such powerful and amazing God who created this world full of energy and endless beautiful intelligence beyond our tiny understanding, suddenly did smth so very weak and inefficient in something so important for people

Something so weak and inefficient as a baby wrapped in swaddling cloth?

There comes a time in a believer's life where the words of scripture literally rise up and speak directly to your soul.

Yes, this is something like what I was gonna say!

 

[FunToLive]

Accept "it" or "Him"?

I accept it because it lines up with what the Spirit communicates.



Something so weak and inefficient as a baby wrapped in swaddling cloth?



Yes, this is something like what I was gonna say!

Faith. But can’t have faith not being convinced, I have hard time with that.

Jesus Christ is a very powerful idea of love, forgiveness and ultimate sacrifice.

 

[Tone]

Faith. But can’t have faith not being convinced, I have hard time with that.

Jesus Christ is a very powerful idea of love, forgiveness and ultimate sacrifice.

You are a more righteous person than I am in that you appreciate the idea.

I was such a wretch that the only thing I could appreciate was a real Person snatching me out of hell.

 

[FunToLive]

You are a more righteous person than I am in that you appreciate the idea.

I was such a wretch that the only thing I could appreciate was a real Person snatching me out of hell.

I was and am quite wretched I must admit. I envy people who have a strong inner backbone such as faith or faithless convictions.

Getting to know the Bible and teachings of Jesus has helped me a lot.

 

[Tone]

I was and am quite wretched I must admit. I envy people who have a strong inner backbone such as faith, or even faithless convictions.

Getting to know the Bible and teachings of Jesus have helped me a lot.

Well, I believe that He will meet us on every aspect of our beings.

We are unique individuals and we interface with Him differently and in our own time.

That is a praise report that you have benefited from what He has revealed to you thus far.

This is a sign that your heart is good soil.

Yah bless!

 

[FunToLive]

Well, I believe that He will meet us on every aspect of our beings.

We are unique individuals and we interface with Him differently and in our own time.

That is a praise report that you have benefited from what He has revealed to you thus far.

This is a sign that your heart is good soil.

Yah bless!

Encouraging, thank you

 

[TzephanYahu]

No, I don’t trust my mind and my perception to know-it-all. It would be very foolish. That’s why I’m trying to study, learn, understand. But pride of course gets in the way of impartial seeking

You have a good view on the matter here. I think we're all prone to pride when it comes to knowledge.

You sound convincing in the sense “it is because it is”. Or God knows better, so who are you to question it.

No, I wouldn't ever mean you to stop asking questions. Always, always ask questions. I still do today on the more complex concepts in the Bible and the most very simples that children understand easily. Always ask questions. That said, there is an element of "If God was real and the Bible 100% true, who are we to challenge either?" But that doesn't mean you shouldn't just "do as you're told and sit quiet!"

What if I don’t see God in the Bible, but people trying to find God or even play God Then I can’t accept such argument.

Hey, no matter how far back you go in history you'll find people playing god to trying to find God. Even in the Bible it records long periods of time like this. Today is just another chapter in a larger Bible we might read one day.

Well, 1/7 or 15% of the world many if ehom nominal - still not good enough for me, no matter how much you would try to convince me otherwise. My grandparents and beyond never even held a Bible in their hands or heard anything remotely good about the Christian Jesus, being Muslims. Billions people not reached. Limited coverage isn’t love to all. We invented the Internet and smartphones in almost every human being’s hands today, is God not smarter and more capable than us??

I hear what you're saying. But putting aside your examples, and to be fair, you have to admit that more people HAVE been impacted by the Bible, Judaism, Christianity, Catholicism than not.

Let me provide you a concept that is told in the story of Scripture which might illustrate the problem you're seeing. When mankind fell away from Yahweh because of disobedience, they became disconnected from Him in a certain way. They couldn't occupy the same space as Him any more. This is because the power of Yahweh is so powerful in purity that even His very presence would destroy the disobedient matter (i.e. the bodies we have now). Think of it like how nuclear energy can utterly destroy matter on a molecular level. Anyway, the whole message of the Bible is how Yahweh can get man "back to the Garden" and be one with them again. Removing His presence (for now) for the sake of man's existence, the Bible documents God's incredible plan unfold.

Now, when the Messiah came in human form, so He could commune with us, told US to spread the Word - of our Creator, our Father and His "lifeboat rescue mission" to save us from the dead end we're facing. But it's OUR mission to make sure His message is heard by people, like your grandparents and the billions you alluded to, and no, not everyone has been reached - due to MAN's failures.

So what about those who don't hear? What happens to them on Judgment Day? Well, there is reason to believe that they will be judged by the standards of their own conscience. And who can say fairer than that?

Again, good points raised @FunToLive

 

[TzephanYahu]

The trees of Knowledge and of Life in Eden greatly intrigue me. All of Genesis 1-3 does.

Allegory? Complete falsehood?

Both truth and an allegory.

The Word of God is perfectly orchestrated with a layer upon layer effect. You're not only reading of the literal past in these words but reading allegories of challenges and events you'll face. It's both an historical account and meditative literature of the highest form.

Of course, that's no proof for you. But that's the point of view of someone on "the other side of the fence" as it were.

Is there a grain of truth in those stories or total misconceptions? Like, I’ve read that the fall could be a dangerous teaching as people are basically good, but telling them they are not makes them act accordingly...

No, that teaching is nonsense. I am a Christian but I've also got many years of psychological studies under my belt to tell you that people aren't basically good. Any parent should be able to witness this as well. If you raise you're child with no guidance or discipline they don't turn out basically good. I'm sure people would like to believe that and it is optimistic, but we don't need reminders from history or the news to see that there is something wrong with mankind - they are capable of much cruelty (as the Bible records too).

That's what makes finding a honestly good and decent person such a treat in this world.

Traditionally my people have other creation mythologies, with a male and female deity. Some ancient western semitic and broader middle eastern sources seem to shed more light on the story Genesis 1-3. But those stories survived in fragments and so a relation isn’t undoubtedly evident.

Yes of course, as the worldwide accounts of the Flood as well. In fact, science is now catching up with the genetic evidence to suggest all races up to a single woman. "Mitochondrial Eve".

But this to a Christian makes sense. All nations today spread from Noah's three sons - the table of the beginning of nations is recorded in Genesis 10. Generational stories of would have spread quicker than the written word (which existed back then but without a printing press). It's no wonder that humans spreading across the world over tens of generations that the stories of Adam and Eve and the Flood would suffer under the "Chinese whispers" effect.

But not only that. Unfortunately the false religion that arose after the Flood under the Tower of Babel would also pass and spread and diverge across the world - giving us many religions and many diverse idol-gods still present today.

Damning woman by desire of man is a little puzzling to me, too.

I don't really know what you mean by that, sorry.

Thanks for your replies and sharing your thoughts.

Love & Shalom

 

[FunToLive]

You have a good view on the matter here. I think we're all prone to pride when it comes to knowledge.



No, I wouldn't ever mean you to stop asking questions. Always, always ask questions. I still do today on the more complex concepts in the Bible and the most very simples that children understand easily. Always ask questions. That said, there is an element of "If God was real and the Bible 100% true, who are we to challenge either?" But that doesn't mean you shouldn't just "do as you're told and sit quiet!"



Hey, no matter how far back you go in history you'll find people playing god to trying to find God. Even in the Bible it records long periods of time like this. Today is just another chapter in a larger Bible we might read one day.



I hear what you're saying. But putting aside your examples, and to be fair, you have to admit that more people HAVE been impacted by the Bible, Judaism, Christianity, Catholicism than not.

Let me provide you a concept that is told in the story of Scripture which might illustrate the problem you're seeing. When mankind fell away from Yahweh because of disobedience, they became disconnected from Him in a certain way. They couldn't occupy the same space as Him any more. This is because the power of Yahweh is so powerful in purity that even His very presence would destroy the disobedient matter (i.e. the bodies we have now). Think of it like how nuclear energy can utterly destroy matter on a molecular level. Anyway, the whole message of the Bible is how Yahweh can get man "back to the Garden" and be one with them again. Removing His presence (for now) for the sake of man's existence, the Bible documents God's incredible plan unfold.

Now, when the Messiah came in human form, so He could commune with us, told US to spread the Word - of our Creator, our Father and His "lifeboat rescue mission" to save us from the dead end we're facing. But it's OUR mission to make sure His message is heard by people, like your grandparents and the billions you alluded to, and no, not everyone has been reached - due to MAN's failures.

So what about those who don't hear? What happens to them on Judgment Day? Well, there is reason to believe that they will be judged by the standards of their own conscience. And who can say fairer than that?

Again, good points raised @FunToLive

I noted and understand all your points

About limited reach of the gospel among people historically and today, you say there’s salvation through hearing the gospel and believing it or through not hearing it and later being judged by the deeds. I’ve beard it before, and it really seems strange to me. Why bother with the gospel then anyway. Just unneeded confusion and cause for so much extra strive and even conflict sometimes among people... Denominations, protestants branching off, crusades, persecution of the Jews, doomsday suicidal sects, divided families etc. I love history as a hobby and read on local history here in Canada. Shocked to read how Catholics and Methodists emigrated from different parts of Britain to southern Ontario for example. I admire them for their courage, resilience and industrious spirit. However, they settled in segregation according to their church affiliation and armed militias fought with each other - Catholics and protestants with casualties... Hard to believe with peace and harmony mostly today between their descendants.

 

[FunToLive]

Both truth and an allegory.

The Word of God is perfectly orchestrated with a layer upon layer effect. You're not only reading of the literal past in these words but reading allegories of challenges and events you'll face. It's both an historical account and meditative literature of the highest form.

Of course, that's no proof for you. But that's the point of view of someone on "the other side of the fence" as it were.



No, that teaching is nonsense. I am a Christian but I've also got many years of psychological studies under my belt to tell you that people aren't basically good. Any parent should be able to witness this as well. If you raise you're child with no guidance or discipline they don't turn out basically good. I'm sure people would like to believe that and it is optimistic, but we don't need reminders from history or the news to see that there is something wrong with mankind - they are capable of much cruelty (as the Bible records too).

That's what makes finding a honestly good and decent person such a treat in this world.



Yes of course, as the worldwide accounts of the Flood as well. In fact, science is now catching up with the genetic evidence to suggest all races up to a single woman. "Mitochondrial Eve".

But this to a Christian makes sense. All nations today spread from Noah's three sons - the table of the beginning of nations is recorded in Genesis 10. Generational stories of would have spread quicker than the written word (which existed back then but without a printing press). It's no wonder that humans spreading across the world over tens of generations that the stories of Adam and Eve and the Flood would suffer under the "Chinese whispers" effect.

But not only that. Unfortunately the false religion that arose after the Flood under the Tower of Babel would also pass and spread and diverge across the world - giving us many religions and many diverse idol-gods still present today.



I don't really know what you mean by that, sorry.

Thanks for your replies and sharing your thoughts.

Love & Shalom

There are obvious allegories like the proverbs of Jesus, but there are other texts that some take literally and others figuratively. I’ve talked to a person in my native country who’s a super genius expert on the Bible almost knowing all of it by heart but he has an extreme view of seeing everything in the Bible as a sort of allegorical code. Words or ideas or objects are all signifying some spiritual truths. He thinks the priesthood that wrote the Bible didn’t want the masses to get it and so they “hid the information in plain sight”. I don’t remember exactly, but I think it’s kind of a conspiracy theory about some group knowingly leading the world to an Apocalypse, exploiting the masses in the meantime. But I might be mistaken about his theories, been a long time.

Maybe such ability to see symbolism everywhere is alike our brain skill to see patterns, sometimes even where don’t exist

 

[TzephanYahu]

I’ve beard it before, and it really seems strange to me. Why bother with the gospel then anyway. Just unneeded confusion and cause for so much extra strive and even conflict sometimes among people...

The point of the gospel, or rather of the Messiah’s visitation has many reasons but one of the main reasons, which also answers your questions, is to set a clear standard.


If you understand the history of the Jews from the beginning until the first century, they failed many times in following to the Law. At first the main problem was intentional ignorance but, after returning from the Babylonian exile, it was legalistic adherence which bred pride and hierarchy. The Law alone wasn’t sufficient to make men good.


The Messiah came as a demonstration of how to live according to the will of Yahweh and what the correct interpretation of the Law is. Therefore, to follow Him or to truly believe that He is the Son of Yahweh is your testimony that you recognise His righteousness – despite your current way and behaviour.


To put it in simpler terms, try to see the Messiah as banner. A banner is absolute. You can be under the banner or not. In the same way, Yahushua (Jesus) is the banner that Yahweh has set up – like a line drawn in the sand to say “who do you stand with?”


That “banner” is needed as it is indeed possible to follow the Law and yet miss the heart intention behind it. Conversely, it’s possible to have the right heart intention of the Law yet violate it. So what should be the requirement to enter the Kingdom of God? Should it be for one who follows the Law to the letter or one who follows the Law by feeling although they violate the letter?


The Messiah is our perfect standard, provided by the Creator, with the question “Do you believe this man is righteous? Do you believe this man speaks the truth?” Those who have their eyes open by the Spirit will see the Messiah is the way and the truth and leads us to life. Those who speak against the Messiah have already been judged as wrong as they have spoken against Yahweh’s absolute perfect standard.


A final example would be this. Let’s say you raised a son and was very proud of who he was. In every way he pleased you. You meet someone on the street who seems like a nice guy and he happens to know of your son (but not that you were his father). Suddenly this seemingly nice person starts disrespecting your son and speaking badly of him. Would you have to get to know this person more before your judge him? Or would the very fact that he spoke against your son (your standard) be enough for you?


Thanks for your reply and it is a good question

 

[TzephanYahu]

Maybe such ability to see symbolism everywhere is alike our brain skill to see patterns, sometimes even where don’t exist

True, one can start going too deep in their assessments and assume that they more in depth it seems the more truth must be behind it.

As the saying goes, use spiritual-eyes but don't over spiritualise!

Love & Shalom

 

[FunToLive]

I’m quite intrigued by the phenomenon of prophets. Who are they really? God’s messengers, false prophets indwelled by evil spirts, people with mental illness, creative souls, inborn leaders, crooks who piggyback God-fear to enslave commoners for ego or material profit, sincerely mislead people, lizard extraterrestrials in a plot against humanity etc.?

Not only Biblical or church prophets, but overall. Like Shamans who can start foretelling the future in a trance or Nikola Tesla talking in his autobiography about receiving ideas from the universal database of knowledge. Or a novelist suddenly getting inspiration to write basically the story of the Titanic several years before it happened, or Edgar Cayce the American sleeping prophet who could access the Akashic records called the Book of Life in the Bible.

Muhammad also claimed to have been contacted by God and his sermons are clearly the work of a genius, or as Muslims believe, the exact words of God. Islam has as much global spread as Christianity and is the fastest growing system of faith today

I wander is it all pure psychology and imaginative human brain or there is some connection to invisible spiritual realm that some individuals are more attuned to?

If the latter, then it’s anyway very hard whom to trust, who make up as they go or who are genuine?

 

[FunToLive]

I don't really know what you mean by that, sorry.

Genesis 3:16: “Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee”

How is a woman’s desire for her husband a curse? What about man’s desire for his wife? Very very strange. I looked up the Hebrew word used, and it comes from the root implying being pulled to something.

Sounds like the need of a female in a male is stronger than vice versa, and that somehow it’s inferior

 

[FunToLive]

The point of the gospel, or rather of the Messiah’s visitation has many reasons but one of the main reasons, which also answers your questions, is to set a clear standard.


If you understand the history of the Jews from the beginning until the first century, they failed many times in following to the Law. At first the main problem was intentional ignorance but, after returning from the Babylonian exile, it was legalistic adherence which bred pride and hierarchy. The Law alone wasn’t sufficient to make men good.


The Messiah came as a demonstration of how to live according to the will of Yahweh and what the correct interpretation of the Law is. Therefore, to follow Him or to truly believe that He is the Son of Yahweh is your testimony that you recognise His righteousness – despite your current way and behaviour.


To put it in simpler terms, try to see the Messiah as banner. A banner is absolute. You can be under the banner or not. In the same way, Yahushua (Jesus) is the banner that Yahweh has set up – like a line drawn in the sand to say “who do you stand with?”


That “banner” is needed as it is indeed possible to follow the Law and yet miss the heart intention behind it. Conversely, it’s possible to have the right heart intention of the Law yet violate it. So what should be the requirement to enter the Kingdom of God? Should it be for one who follows the Law to the letter or one who follows the Law by feeling although they violate the letter?


The Messiah is our perfect standard, provided by the Creator, with the question “Do you believe this man is righteous? Do you believe this man speaks the truth?” Those who have their eyes open by the Spirit will see the Messiah is the way and the truth and leads us to life. Those who speak against the Messiah have already been judged as wrong as they have spoken against Yahweh’s absolute perfect standard.


A final example would be this. Let’s say you raised a son and was very proud of who he was. In every way he pleased you. You meet someone on the street who seems like a nice guy and he happens to know of your son (but not that you were his father). Suddenly this seemingly nice person starts disrespecting your son and speaking badly of him. Would you have to get to know this person more before your judge him? Or would the very fact that he spoke against your son (your standard) be enough for you?


Thanks for your reply and it is a good question

Church version of Biblical history may differ from what secular historians propose. Not that I automatically support or reject either, but history isn’t an exact science. Spending considerable time in Israel and visiting other Biblical lands, I saw how modern historians can have an alternative views based on archeological and hisotiographic data. The Bible is quite historically accurate, but some stories don’t find support in the currently available data. Also we see evolution from polytheism to monotheism (council of gods in the Bible with El the supreme God) or absorbing elements of Sumerian mythology. Sheol transformed into Hades or intelligent talking snake of Eden into zoroastrian dualistic Satan/Diabolos lier/opposer.

Repetition of stories with differences, or two versions of the Law, with one having emphasis on priesthood rituals post Babylon. Original faith of Israelites as could be seen from Genesis or 1-2 Samuel seemed to be quite simpler, closer to my ancestor’s primitive animism, than more complex systems of belief and worship that came about later on.

Even Yahweh appears later on, with Elohim being in the earlier parts of Pentateuch and other early books of the OT. Some theorize Yahweh was a son of El and member of the council of Gods, but later became the sole God in newly emerged monotheism under the influence of dualistic faiths of the more civilized super powers of the days.

If we talk about God’s Law as an abstract idea, ascribing whatever idealistic contents to it we may chose, it’s really good. God’s righteousness and justice. When I read the law in Pentateuch, some clauses are outdated (like marriage rules) and it’s ok but some (like stoning rebellious child or chopping off woman’s arm for stopping a men’s fight in an appropriate way) are super cringy. So I really can’t hear generalized ideas such as God’s Law in Biblical context without thinking, this Law is actually lower in morality or unusable than what I would have written today... Mostly because times have changed and society evolved (not always for the better). In my people’s relatively recent days we also had many cringy laws like buying teenage wives with cattle or whipping disobedient slaves to death.

Jesus Christ as banner, I understand. A standard of holiness and a complete pardon through faith out of a doomed state being unable to fulfill the law. God’s substitute or representative in the friend disrespecting son analogy.

Also very powerful potentially life-changing ideal. Forgiveness switches off guilt that can eat up a person mentally and opens up new door to positivity and change. Christian gospel is indeed a great soup for soul, inspiring many people to highest achievements as individuals or in a group. Whole countries where built on Chrisitan ideology (let’s forget for a moment the preceding genocide or enslavement of the natives in some cases).

But... again when I read the gospels then the idealistic image of Jesus Christ crushes in my eyes... Non-israelites are dogs who come to eat crumbs left from children’s table, Jesus approving family division over him, doesn’t condemn slavery, and overall idea of blood sacrifice from animals to evetually Jesus. etc

I see a great disconnect from theology and the Bible, and as many millions can overcome that by selective reading and confirmation bias, I can’t reconcile that..

 

[FunToLive]

Both truth and an allegory.

The Word of God is perfectly orchestrated with a layer upon layer effect. You're not only reading of the literal past in these words but reading allegories of challenges and events you'll face. It's both an historical account and meditative literature of the highest form.

Of course, that's no proof for you. But that's the point of view of someone on "the other side of the fence" as it were.



No, that teaching is nonsense. I am a Christian but I've also got many years of psychological studies under my belt to tell you that people aren't basically good. Any parent should be able to witness this as well. If you raise you're child with no guidance or discipline they don't turn out basically good. I'm sure people would like to believe that and it is optimistic, but we don't need reminders from history or the news to see that there is something wrong with mankind - they are capable of much cruelty (as the Bible records too).

That's what makes finding a honestly good and decent person such a treat in this world.



Yes of course, as the worldwide accounts of the Flood as well. In fact, science is now catching up with the genetic evidence to suggest all races up to a single woman. "Mitochondrial Eve".

But this to a Christian makes sense. All nations today spread from Noah's three sons - the table of the beginning of nations is recorded in Genesis 10. Generational stories of would have spread quicker than the written word (which existed back then but without a printing press). It's no wonder that humans spreading across the world over tens of generations that the stories of Adam and Eve and the Flood would suffer under the "Chinese whispers" effect.

But not only that. Unfortunately the false religion that arose after the Flood under the Tower of Babel would also pass and spread and diverge across the world - giving us many religions and many diverse idol-gods still present today.



I don't really know what you mean by that, sorry.

Thanks for your replies and sharing your thoughts.

Love & Shalom

I tend to think, just from experience, that people are generally good. Good and bad are relative terms though.

Yes I believe there’s definitely some truth to those OT stories of creation of people from a single pair or Noah’s flood or mixing of languages after Babel.

Not literally, of course.

I love genetics from young age, if I didn’t go into engineering I’d become a geneticist for sure. Y-DNA Adam or mtRNA Eve aren’t literal Adam and Eve the progenitors of the human race either. But all 7 billion today definitely came from a small group of people probably in Africa, not 2 or 8 though, and not a few thousand years ago as per Biblical chronology.

I love it that Eve was made from a rib (or an aspect as can also be translated) of Adam, as male genome has the material for both male and female organisms, whereas you can’t clone a male from a female as her genome is strictly female. Talking about the 23rd pair of chromosomes

 

[TzephanYahu]

How is a woman’s desire for her husband a curse? What about man’s desire for her wife? Very very strange. I looked up the Hebrew word used, and it comes from the root implying being pulled to something.

Sounds like the need of a female in a male is stronger than vice versa, and that somehow it’s inferior

Well I think Eve’s curse was more to do with child bearing personally but I see your point.

Psychologically speaking, men generally want respect from their partner and women want love. That’s not to say men don’t want love and women don't want respect! Far from it. But the fundamental need of each sex is different: Men – Respect, Women – Love. When these fundamentals are not nurtured, there will be a problem in any relationship.

Also a generalised observation should also show us that women seem to be more loyal and loving to the their men than vice verse. Again, this is a generalisation and there are always exceptions.

But if this is a natural state of relations between the sexes because of the fall, why?

It could be that the Creator put man as the “head” for his physical abilities that are more suitable for protection and providing, whereas the woman is naturally endowed for growing and bearing life. Is that saying she is inferior though? No, I don’t think so. Whatever the man does and whatever the man achieves it is for the sake of his wife. She is his purpose (or should be) and all his strength is expended or made ready for her – so who can say the man in superior? Both (should) be in perfect balance. No harmony has a superior and inferior, but different complimentary roles. And it seems that woman has been placed in man’s care, rather than left to fend for herself whilst bearing children. Would it seem like an evil thing to you for man to step up and protect a pregnant woman under attack? Rhetoric

But on the flip side, let’s consider the matter in another way. If woman was placed in the care of man and her desire turned towards him, what does that imply the state was BEFORE, in the Creator’s initial design? And the ultimate goal is to return to that “Garden”.

 

[TzephanYahu]

The Bible is quite historically accurate, but some stories don’t find support in the currently available data.

Could you provide an example? I haven’t found one substantial claim against the Bible’s historical account

Also we see evolution from polytheism to monotheism (council of gods in the Bible with El the supreme God)

El is a title and not a name. Elohim is the Hebrew word for the ‘council of gods’ as you call it, but more likely the Father, Son and Spirit.

Sheol transformed into Hades or intelligent talking snake of Eden into zoroastrian dualistic Satan/Diabolos lier/opposer.

Not quite. Sheol didn’t transform to Hades. Hades is just the Greek term for Sheol and the ideas were built upon it many years after the Tanakh.

Original faith of Israelites as could be seen from Genesis or 1-2 Samuel seemed to be quite simpler, closer to my ancestor’s primitive animism, than more complex systems of belief and worship that came about later on.

I think It would like further clarification. The Torah (Law) is simple in nature. Service, as in the priesthood, is very specific. Our faith today is again simple but not without specificity. But this is another subject in itself!

Even Yahweh appears later on, with Elohim being in the earlier parts of Pentateuch and other early books of the OT.

That’s not true. Yahweh appears in Genesis and is through the whole OT. Elohim is simply Hebrew for God (or rather the Father, Son and Spirit). So you have “Yahweh Elohim” appear several times in the opening of Genesis, just “Elohim” and also just “Yahweh”. Much like my replies to you, sometimes I write Yahweh and other times God.

Some theorize Yahweh was a son of El and member of the council of Gods, but later became the sole God in newly emerged monotheism under the influence of dualistic faiths of the more civilized super powers of the days.

Again El is a title. That theory is without supporting evidence, I’m quite sure. But let’s take off my “Christian hat” for the moment and look at this objectively. We have this theory on one side and countless people across the world and time that testifying to what is written in the Bible instead. If I had to choose the most likely truth (occam’s razor), I’ll go with the latter.

When I read the law in Pentateuch, some clauses are outdated (like marriage rules) and it’s ok but some (like stoning rebellious child or chopping off woman’s arm for stopping a men’s fight in an appropriate way) are super cringy.

Yes they are outdated to this transient generation. But these laws would have unlikely ever been seen as IN-date. It doesn’t really matter what transient man thinks of an Eternal God’s standards. Just like it doesn’t matter how we might disagree with international laws.

Now, as for the command you mentioned. I think you might be looking at this in the wrong way. So let’s take a different perspective.

This law is meant to dissuade the woman from doing such a thing – not simply serve as judgment to follow. In fact, in several places in the Torah when a severe judgment is given it is stated after “So that all of Israel will hear of it, that no one might do this evil again”.

Again, these laws are meant for dissuasion. If you were a woman living in Israel at the time when this would have been enforced, would you dare do such a thing? Certainly not, and that’s the point.

But let’s look deeper. You seem like a decent person, and so if you made such a law up yourself, I’d think “Wow, this is super important to FuntoLive!” Likewise, for Yahweh, the one and only God of love, grace and mercy, this is clearly an important issue which He warrants this sentence as justified. But why?

Beyond the actual act and devastating effect it’s the heart behind the action which makes it sicker. Whilst the men foolishly strive (over a misunderstanding or disagreement) a third party seeks to inflict severe pain and harm and it could destroy potential generations and a families existence. All for the purpose of helping her man (presumably) resolve his issue. That hand of her that reaches out, reaches out only to do evil and destroy. Should such a wicked reach go without punishment? The men may strive in their folly, but this third party, out of the situation, would go as far as destroy this other man’s family and future generations at her own will. So is it really wrong for the Creator to see this hand that reaches out, solely to do evil, as fit for loss? Is it unfortunate for the woman? Yes, but how can she say her cause and goal was just and right, and made in peace and love?

But... again when I read the gospels then the idealistic image of Jesus Christ crushes in my eyes... Non-israelites are dogs who come to eat crumbs left from children’s table, Jesus approving family division over him, doesn’t condemn slavery, and overall idea of blood sacrifice from animals to evetually Jesus. etc

I think that’s a pretty abrasive appraisal of the Messiah’s visitation and conclusion of His teachings But yes, He used analogies and referred to Israel’s neighbouring enemies as dogs. He also referred to Israel as Sheep, the Pharisees as Vipers and the Herod as a Fox. Being involved in creation, Yahushua (Jesus) is surely teaching us traits of people with these analogies. But if you met Him, would you stand up and correct Him on the way He ought to speak?

Yahushua approving family division is not exactly what He was getting at. Context is everything. You need to understand Hebrew expression as well as the situation He was addressing. We are to love the Son of Elohim more that our parents. That’s only right. If we would rather choose our mother over our Creator and Saviour, then our mother is our god. The terms love and hate, used in the passage, are not equivalent to our usage of the words today. This is a type of Hebrew expression used to highlight juxtaposition.

Yahushua not condemning slavery? Which passages are you referring too?

I see a great disconnect from theology and the Bible, and as many millions can overcome that by selective reading and confirmation bias, I can’t reconcile that..

You’re absolutely right. Theology today in the church is a mess. It’s convoluted and just plain wrong in some instances. But these are the last days and we were promised that such confusion would eventually arise like this. Not from outside the church, but within it. But yeah, you have been born into a very tough time to understand the Bible. Conversely you now have many resources at your disposal in lightning quick time.

Fantastic questions and responses. You are clearly applying a lot thought to these matters and I can see your viewpoint is very reasonable as well.

Love & Shalom