Book/Resource Recommendation Thread

[chaoschristian]

Folks:

What do y'all think about the idea of creating a sticky thread that would be a composite list of recommended books and resources with 2-3 line reviews?

I would think that we could get the assistance of the MODS in helping us maintain this and keeping it free of debate.

I've come across some resources recently, that while not exactly on topic in regards to evolutionary theory, do offer incite into the nature of science and knowledge.

I know that Gluady's has recommended excellent resources in the past, as have many others.

Why not collect them all in only place for easy reference?

 

[gluadys]

Folks:

What do y'all think about the idea of creating a sticky thread that would be a composite list of recommended books and resources with 2-3 line reviews?

I would think that we could get the assistance of the MODS in helping us maintain this and keeping it free of debate.

It needs some thinking through. If it is to be in the Origins Theology section (and I think it should be) it would have to include pro-creationist resources. I also think that it would need to include both resources on science and resources on theology. The interpretation of scripture is as important a topic as the scientific evidence, and of course influences to what extent a person finds the evidence acceptable.

It would be a good idea to have resources grouped by type and perspective.

But, while it would be handy for reference, I am not sure simply listing resources would have much impact without an incentive to debate. So what I would suggest is this:

Assuming a TE puts up a favorable review of a book such as Finding Darwin's God, the way should be open for a creationist to post a negative review of the same book. Similarly, when a creationist posts a favorable review of e.g. Darwin's Black Box, the way should be open for a TE to post a negative review of the same book. (Or they could be in reverse order--negative first, then positive.)

For the sticky, one positive and one negative review is the limit. Both reviewers must be required to show evidence that they have actually studied, not just perused, the resource.

But then, both resources and reviews could be debated in a separate thread.

I don't know whether it would work, but the plus I see is that anyone wanting to rebut the first review would have to become familiar with the resource they are commenting on. And I am all in favour of creationists becoming more familiar with science and theology they have never been exposed to.

 

[chaoschristian]

It needs some thinking through. If it is to be in the Origins Theology section (and I think it should be) it would have to include pro-creationist resources. I also think that it would need to include both resources on science and resources on theology. The interpretation of scripture is as important a topic as the scientific evidence, and of course influences to what extent a person finds the evidence acceptable.

It would be a good idea to have resources grouped by type and perspective.

But, while it would be handy for reference, I am not sure simply listing resources would have much impact without an incentive to debate. So what I would suggest is this:

Assuming a TE puts up a favorable review of a book such as Finding Darwin's God, the way should be open for a creationist to post a negative review of the same book. Similarly, when a creationist posts a favorable review of e.g. Darwin's Black Box, the way should be open for a TE to post a negative review of the same book. (Or they could be in reverse order--negative first, then positive.)

For the sticky, one positive and one negative review is the limit. Both reviewers must be required to show evidence that they have actually studied, not just perused, the resource.

But then, both resources and reviews could be debated in a separate thread.

I don't know whether it would work, but the plus I see is that anyone wanting to rebut the first review would have to become familiar with the resource they are commenting on. And I am all in favour of creationists becoming more familiar with science and theology they have never been exposed to.

Gluadys, you are being far more open minded and generous with this than I had intended. I was thinking along the lines of a TE only resource, but I agree with your expanded vision. You put me to shame.

That said, I'll ask the MODS about what kind of work burden this would place on them.

 

[gluadys]

Gluadys, you are being far more open minded and generous with this than I had intended. I was thinking along the lines of a TE only resource, but I agree with your expanded vision. You put me to shame.

That said, I'll ask the MODS about what kind of work burden this would place on them.

Actually a TE only resource would be much simpler, but it would need to be posted in the TE only forum.

It would certainly benefit people who are novices in this line of thinking.

The work involved in the expanded scenario might not be worth the effort if it did not lead to creationists actually reading material written from a TE perspective. (Or vice versa, but it is my impression that most TEs do read creationist material, but the reverse is not often the case.)

I wonder if a preferable approach in Origins Theology might be a book study (or two book studies: one of a creationist resource and one of a TE recommended resource.)

 

[chaoschristian]

Actually a TE only resource would be much simpler, but it would need to be posted in the TE only forum.

Agreed.

It would certainly benefit people who are novices in this line of thinking.

Exactly what I had in mind.

The work involved in the expanded scenario might not be worth the effort if it did not lead to creationists actually reading material written from a TE perspective. (Or vice versa, but it is my impression that most TEs do read creationist material, but the reverse is not often the case.)

I'm asking myself if I'm committed enough to the idea to put in the work to give it a hope of succeeding. I think if done well it will at least provide the opportunity for people to examine works that they would not either be aware of or give more than a first glance.

I wonder if a preferable approach in Origins Theology might be a book study (or two book studies: one of a creationist resource and one of a TE recommended resource.)

Ambitious and intriguing. I know that some great work has come out of the effort my pastor has put into leading a study of Revelation, because he emphasizes building a common ground for understanding first. So much so that time is spent each week reviewing the grounds rules and primary objectives of the study. If he didn't I believe it would break down in a live version of an internet flame war.

Do you think that CF is a good medium through which such an exchange could take place?

 

[gluadys]

Do you think that CF is a good medium through which such an exchange could take place?

It would depend. I think one would need the framework of a formal debate, so there would have to be limitations on who could post and prior commitment from those who participated.

The typical thread would break down quickly.

I think at this point I would go for the easier goal--your first suggestion.

I would also suggest soliciting reviews of three types of resources:

a) those that give a good scientific explanation of evolution, geology, radiometry, etc.

b) those that give a good explanation of theistic evolution and non-literal biblical interpretation.

c) those that provide good refutations of standard creationist arguments.

Let's put the more ambitious project on the back burner for now.

 

[chaoschristian]

With the advent of the new WIKI feature here at CF, I wonder if its not prudent to change gears for the time being and rather than putting effort into a book/resource list, instead put effort into a WIKI entry for Christian theistic evolution thinking.

If I may be so bold, I'll take a stab at drafting an entry that I will then post here for review and comment before going through the WIKI process.

 

[shernren]

Can I start the ball rolling with reviews?

http://brownalumnimagazine.com/storydetail.cfm?Id=1838

Finding Darwin's God (essay), by Kenneth Miller

This was the primer text that started me thinking on the God-of-the-gaps fallacy and a more holistic way to view science and its relationship with God. Perfect starter reference for all those bristly "but evolution is just an attempt to take God out of the picture!" shouts. Also, I feel that it is pitched at a level where a cursory glance would only yield an incendiary quote ("'I believe in Darwin's God' - told you evolutionists don't worship the God of the Bible!") whereas a good think-over would help the reader at least understand the TE position. I feel that this helps me use it as a "winnowing text" to see if the discusser is really interested in the issues involved, or unwilling to even consider what it looks like from the other side.

 

[shernren]

Good on you chaoschristian! If I may humbly give you a few notes which I think would be important for a good presentation of the TE position.

Overall, the scientific aspect can be well covered with a link to talkorigins, I think it would be more necessary to focus on the theological aspects of it, namely

- the relationship between myth, historicity, and truth <-> the position of the Bible on evolution
- the relationship between science and God, mainly focusing on the God-of-the-gaps fallacy (I don't mind contributing more for this section )
- specifically Christian reactions to evolution, e.g. "a God who uses death is cruel", "I'm not just a monkey who got lucky", etc.

And here's a challenge: common mistakes TEs make in interacting with creationists?

 

[rmwilliamsll]

i imagine that _Finding Darwin's God_ is the most often recommended book online to see the TE position. However, i would really recommend looking at:

Evolution from Creation to New Creation: Conflict, Conversation, and Convergence by Ted Peters
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member...-2478522?_encoding=UTF8&display=public&page=6

mostly because it is written as an introduction to the field and covers most of the potential positions by looking at particular people.

 

[chaoschristian]

Good on you chaoschristian! If I may humbly give you a few notes which I think would be important for a good presentation of the TE position.

Overall, the scientific aspect can be well covered with a link to talkorigins, I think it would be more necessary to focus on the theological aspects of it, namely

- the relationship between myth, historicity, and truth <-> the position of the Bible on evolution
- the relationship between science and God, mainly focusing on the God-of-the-gaps fallacy (I don't mind contributing more for this section )
- specifically Christian reactions to evolution, e.g. "a God who uses death is cruel", "I'm not just a monkey who got lucky", etc.

And here's a challenge: common mistakes TEs make in interacting with creationists?

Hey, thanks for the good recommendations. I', allocating working on this tonight and hope to have a rough draft out tomorrow.

Fortunately, because of all of the talented and articulate folks on this forum, I've got lots of good material to pull from.

 

[mark kennedy]

Actually I am interested in doing something simular in the Creationism forum. I think it's a great idea and I would be more then happy to request such a sticky from the senior staff. I can make one, that is one of the things that moderators are allowed to do, but I'm not really authorized to do it on a whim.

I don't think a sticky is a real problem, it's subforums that take a lot of time and trouble. You guys get a suitable post ready and I will check with the admins, senior staff and Erwin if necassary to make it happen for you. I'm really impressed that a creationist view has been suggested as part of this. You guys have a great idea here and I will be happy to help make this happen any way I can.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[chaoschristian]

Actually I am interested in doing something simular in the Creationism forum. I think it's a great idea and I would be more then happy to request such a sticky from the senior staff. I can make one, that is one of the things that moderators are allowed to do, but I'm not really authorized to do it on a whim.

I don't think a sticky is a real problem, it's subforums that take a lot of time and trouble. You guys get a suitable post ready and I will check with the admins, senior staff and Erwin if necassary to make it happen for you. I'm really impressed that a creationist view has been suggested as part of this. You guys have a great idea here and I will be happy to help make this happen any way I can.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Thanks Mark. As soon as we have something organized we'll get a copy to you.

 

[mark kennedy]

I got a PM from Deamiter and he said something like the Quiet Thread in the Creation/evolution forum would be best. I wasn't really expecting something like that but I think it's a great idea. He would take care of the TE thread and I would look after the Creation forum. My guess is it would be low maintance and you could load it up with referance material and book reviews.

I'm really excited about this idea, I'll keep you posted as this develops.

Deamiter...you gotta love this guy.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Deamiter]

I'd certainly be interested in a new TE sticky (probably also consolodating the two stickies we have now). This could take a few forms:

1. List of short points with links and 1-2 lines of text.
2. Quiet Thread -- series of articles much like they're trying to get in the creationist forum.
3. Shorter book reviews.

Anyway, I'm very busy with research for the next year or so, so I'm not very active on the forums. However, I check my PMs between once a day and once an hour, and I generally try to keep up on my subscribed threads. So if you come up with a concensus, send me a PM and I'll make sure to take care of it ASAP.

Whatever it is, it should be pretty self-sustaining. I have no qualms about continually editing an OP to update a list, but it's inevitable that at some point it's going to be forgotten. A list of individual posts can be moderated with much less effort than an edited OP with submissions added in the thread. In other words, a Quiet Thread format is preferred simply because it won't require updating. That doesn't at all rule out a better-formatted list, but such a list should be worth the extra effort.

 

[Pats]

I have a real interest in this as well. I'm just wondering whatever happened with this idea and if anything is still in the works?

I used to belong to a forum of computer graphic artists who had a sticky in one of their forum's they call, The Toy Box. In it, each member posts what applications they themselves use. They don't post reviews, but the same concept could work here.

Their site admin. used to keep up with a page that the original post had a link to where they had a page that contained the master list all nice and neat, however that's surely not necessary for our purposes.

I love the idea of having it out in the open OT forum, and I also like the idea of cross reviewing. Afterall, that might encourage folks to read some material they otherwise might not have.

So, what happened with this? anything?

 

[pgp_protector]

Well I'm new to the Idea of TE, but I must admit, it make the most sence to me.

The book that introduced me to it is "The Language Of God"