Book of Mormon Study Group: Input wanted

[AMMON]

Hi there!




If you have put your faith in the wrong place, then your faith is misplaced.


The Christ of Calvary is the the Christ of the New Testament... I went through the attributes of Christ in a previous posting... the Christ of mormonism is not the same as the Christ of the New Testament.





~serapha~

Am I to understand, then, that you limit the power of the atonement to account for a misunderstanding but that the same atonement can cover the sins of a murderer?

 

[baker]

Limiting Christ would be saying that his atonement wasn't powerful enough to account in grace for differnces in understanding.

But isn't this what the lds teachings do in reality, limit Christ? What I mean is that in order to buy into the lds claim, we have to look at Christ's/God's ability as "limited" in His promise to keep His word amongst His people. He clearly stated in Matt 16:

16Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Yet the lds church tell us we must believe that, in fact, it failed after 5000 yrs+ of promising, lasted only a couple of hundred yrs. and Smith's restoration was needed!

Now, who's "limiting Christ"?

 

[AMMON]

But isn't this what the lds teachings do in reality, limit Christ? What I mean is that in order to buy into the lds claim, we have to look at Christ's/God's ability as "limited" in His promise to keep His word amongst His people. He clearly stated in Matt 16:

16Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Yet the lds church tell us we must believe that, in fact, it failed after 5000 yrs+ of promising, lasted only a couple of hundred yrs. and Smith's restoration was needed!

Now, who's "limiting Christ"?

The gates of hell did not prevail against it. GOD Himself removed it from the Earth because He determined that man was incapable of treating the sacred things of the Church with respect at that time of the planet's history. The Church was removed from Earth, but God is the God of this Universe. It remained alive, just not HERE. Think outside the box.

 

[Serapha]

Am I to understand, then, that you limit the power of the atonement to account for a misunderstanding but that the same atonement can cover the sins of a murderer?

Hi there!



Whatever tangent you are going off on... get back on track.


The difference between the Christ of Calvary and the Christ of mormonism...


is ontology

The Christ of mormonism is identifiable as I said previously... as the three-leaf clover... you think that Christ is totally independent of the rest of the Godhead... but just attached at some point..


In reality, the Christ of Calvary is as light... with three properties, but all three together, and without the total properties, there is no light.

That's the limiting that the CoJCoLDS's places on Christ, and that limitation changes the character of Christ. Your faith is salvation that is in a three-leaf clover effect... and Christianity puts their faith in the "light" of the Godhead... which Christ is a permeated part of the Godhead.


~serapha~

 

[rnmomof7]

Oh no! Not the beep beep analogy again. Please, make it stop! As for the sins and payment thereof, we actually believe he began to pay for them in the Garden and completed payment at the moment he died on the Cross. And we worship the same Jesus you do; we just disagree as to the exact form he takes in relation to the Father.

It must make a valid point if it bothers you .

Ezra Taft Benson, current prophet of the Mormon Church, explained the Atonement for Mankind's sins happened in the Garden of Gethsemane.



"What happened in that garden, said President Ezra Taft Benson, `was the greatest single act of love in recorded history.



"`It was in Gethsemane that Jesus took on Himself the sins of the world, in Gethsemane that His pain was equivalent to the cumulative burden of all men, in Gethsemane that He descended below all things so that all could repent and come to Him.'"



He continues by stating, "`That holy, unselfish act of voluntarily taking on Himself the sins of all other men is called the Atonement'" (LDS Church News, 1 June 1991, p. 14).


This doctrine seems to have been getting toned down somewhat in recent years by the LDS Church, probably in an attempt to make the Church appear more like a mainstream Christian denomination. This is illustrated in recent editions of the official LDS Church book Gospel Principles.

The 1978 edition of Gospel Principles puts the focus of the atonement on Gethsemane:

"In the Garden of Gethsemane, Christ atoned for the sins of all mankind." (Page 58,)
At the cross it is simply stated that Jesus died there:

"Christ died on the cross at Calvary." (Page 58,)


The 1997 edition of Gospel Principles now seems to be drawing away from the focus of Gethsemane and is putting greater emphasis on the cross:




"In the Garden of Gethsemane, the Savior took upon himself the sins of all mankind." (Page 58)

The sentence about the cross has now been expanded to include the words "our sins":

"Jesus died for our sins on the cross at Calvary." .

Christians do not believe that Christ atoned for our sins with the blood (if it was indeed blood) that fell from Him at Gethsemane. The scripture actually says Jesus’ sweat was "like" great drops of blood. It does not say it was blood.
To Christian, the cross is absolutely central to the atoning work of Jesus. The whole point of Jesus’ death was to atone for our sins, as the animal sacrifices made in Old Testament were to atone for the sins of the people at that time. These sacrifices pointed towards Jesus’ ultimate atonement, death, and sacrifice.
The major focus for Christians is the cross of Christ, and His atonement for our sins there. The lack of focus upon the cross, in Mormonism, is may be one of the reasons why there is not a single Christian cross anywhere, in any Mormon temple in the world.

 

[AMMON]

Hi there!



Whatever tangent you are going off on... get back on track.


The difference between the Christ of Calvary and the Christ of mormonism...


is ontology

The Christ of mormonism is identifiable as I said previously... as the three-leaf clover... you think that Christ is totally independent of the rest of the Godhead... but just attached at some point..


In reality, the Christ of Calvary is as light... with three properties, but all three together, and without the total properties, there is no light.

That's the limiting that the CoJCoLDS's places on Christ, and that limitation changes the character of Christ. Your faith is salvation that is in a three-leaf clover effect... and Christianity puts their faith in the "light" of the Godhead... which Christ is a permeated part of the Godhead.


~serapha~

And again, I ask, so are you limiting the power of the atonement to account for such an alleged misunderstanding? Do you not think that Christ' grace is powerful enough to account for this alleged mistake when it is strong enough to account for murder? Do you see what I'm saying? If one believes that the Christ who died on the Cross is the Savior, that He paid for our sins, but misunderstands His metaphysical nature, surely the grace of Christ is strong enough to account for such a minor error when compared to murder.

 

[Serapha]

The gates of hell did not prevail against it. GOD Himself removed it from the Earth because He determined that man was incapable of treating the sacred things of the Church with respect at that time of the planet's history. The Church was removed from Earth, but God is the God of this Universe. It remained alive, just not HERE. Think outside the box.

Hi there!



Please note that there is no biblical basis for this statement. God (the Godhead) has not removed the church from the earth at any time since the first disciples converted to Christianity.

The "restored" church of the CoJCoLDS's is not a restored church, but a new creation.

~serapha~

 

[HChristfirst]

It must make a valid point if it bothers you .

Ezra Taft Benson, current prophet of the Mormon Church, explained the Atonement for Mankind's sins happened in the Garden of Gethsemane.



"What happened in that garden, said President Ezra Taft Benson, `was the greatest single act of love in recorded history.



"`It was in Gethsemane that Jesus took on Himself the sins of the world, in Gethsemane that His pain was equivalent to the cumulative burden of all men, in Gethsemane that He descended below all things so that all could repent and come to Him.'"



He continues by stating, "`That holy, unselfish act of voluntarily taking on Himself the sins of all other men is called the Atonement'" (LDS Church News, 1 June 1991, p. 14).


This doctrine seems to have been getting toned down somewhat in recent years by the LDS Church, probably in an attempt to make the Church appear more like a mainstream Christian denomination. This is illustrated in recent editions of the official LDS Church book Gospel Principles.

The 1978 edition of Gospel Principles puts the focus of the atonement on Gethsemane:

"In the Garden of Gethsemane, Christ atoned for the sins of all mankind." (Page 58,)
At the cross it is simply stated that Jesus died there:

"Christ died on the cross at Calvary." (Page 58,)


The 1997 edition of Gospel Principles now seems to be drawing away from the focus of Gethsemane and is putting greater emphasis on the cross:




"In the Garden of Gethsemane, the Savior took upon himself the sins of all mankind." (Page 58)

The sentence about the cross has now been expanded to include the words "our sins":

"Jesus died for our sins on the cross at Calvary." .

Christians do not believe that Christ atoned for our sins with the blood (if it was indeed blood) that fell from Him at Gethsemane. The scripture actually says Jesus’ sweat was "like" great drops of blood. It does not say it was blood.
To Christian, the cross is absolutely central to the atoning work of Jesus. The whole point of Jesus’ death was to atone for our sins, as the animal sacrifices made in Old Testament were to atone for the sins of the people at that time. These sacrifices pointed towards Jesus’ ultimate atonement, death, and sacrifice.
The major focus for Christians is the cross of Christ, and His atonement for our sins there. The lack of focus upon the cross, in Mormonism, is may be one of the reasons why there is not a single Christian cross anywhere, in any Mormon temple in the world.

Well Said Except Christians do not believe that Christ atoned for our sins with his blood? He did shed His blood for our sins. And because of His blood mankind has a way for salvation

 

[Serapha]

And again, I ask, so are you limiting the power of the atonement to account for such an alleged misunderstanding? Do you not think that Christ' grace is powerful enough to account for this alleged mistake when it is strong enough to account for murder? Do you see what I'm saying? If one believes that the Christ who died on the Cross is the Savior, that He paid for our sins, but misunderstands His metaphysical nature, surely the grace of Christ is strong enough to account for such a minor error when compared to murder.

Sir...


There is no misunderstanding in what I cited concerning the trinitarian Godhead.

I am not limiting Christ, but the concept that the CoJCoLDS's is limiting Christ.


Get off the "murder" concept... it has nothing to do with the attributes of Jesus Christ.


~serapha~

 

[rnmomof7]

As do Mormons.

No ,Mormons believe there are 3 gods in the "godhead" not one .

You have 3 beings not 3 persons in ONE being .

We do not have a mother goddess giving birth to the spirit child named jesus .
We have different gods , different jesus and different holy spirit

Is your god omnipresent?

 

[Serapha]

Is your god omnipresent?

Hi there!




Yes, a member of the CoJCoLDS's will show you that they believe inthe omnipresence of God... and of Christ...


What is missing is this... from my previous posting...



The difference between the Christ of Calvary and the Christ of mormonism...


is ontology

The Christ of mormonism is identifiable as I said previously... as the three-leaf clover... you think that Christ is totally independent of the rest of the Godhead... but just attached at some point..


In reality, the Christ of Calvary is as light... with three properties, but all three together, and without the total properties, there is no light.

That's the limiting that the CoJCoLDS's places on Christ, and that limitation changes the character of Christ. Your faith is salvation that is in a three-leaf clover effect... and Christianity puts their faith in the "light" of the Godhead... which Christ is a permeated part of the Godhead.


~serapha~

 

[AMMON]

Christ has the power to account for differences in misunderstandings as to His form. If not, He could not have the power to forgive murder.

 

[HChristfirst]

The Start Of Mornism began with Joseph Smith. If What Joseph Smith said is not true than all of mornism is not true even when they do good and help others. Look at the History of Joseph Smith. What he wrote about how it all came to be. There are some major problems in the History that make either Joseph Smith out to not be telling the truth or a Professor.

 

[AMMON]

The Start Of Mornism began with Joseph Smith. If What Joseph Smith said is not true than all of mornism is not true even when they do good and help others. Look at the History of Joseph Smith. What he wrote about how it all came to be. There are some major problems in the History that make out either Joseph Smith out to not be telling the truth or a Professor.

Why don't you start a new thread about your position?

 

[HChristfirst]

And if His History has false things in it than nothing else he said can be relied on and would not be from God

 

[Serapha]

Christ has the power to account for differences in misunderstandings as to His form. If not, He could not have the power to forgive murder.

Hi there!



Get off the "murder" tangent.

Jesus Christ never said there was another way than identified in John, when Jesus said He was the way and the truth.


Now. Christ has the power to do whatever He wishes.... and there is no indication in the Word of God that He plans to transend "misunderstanding" of His character. If there is a passage that says that, then provide it please.

~serapha~

 

[HChristfirst]

Sorry I am new at this. I am learning the ropes

 

[Serapha]

The Start Of Mornism began with Joseph Smith. If What Joseph Smith said is not true than all of mornism is not true even when they do good and help others. Look at the History of Joseph Smith. What he wrote about how it all came to be. There are some major problems in the History that make either Joseph Smith out to not be telling the truth or a Professor.

My friend,



There is no major problem in the "history".... that just history... and it won't be changed. There's a major problem in the derived "book".


~serapha~

 

[HChristfirst]

I will check into starting new thread

 

[AMMON]

Hi there!



Get off the "murder" tangent.

Jesus Christ never said there was another way than identified in John, when Jesus said He was the way and the truth.


Now. Christ has the power to do whatever He wishes.... and there is no indication in the Word of God that He plans to transend "misunderstanding" of His character. If there is a passage that says that, then provide it please.

~serapha~

His grace is sufficient for all who believe in Him. Is it not? If one believes in Him, but misunderstands his precise metaphysical form, you think Him merciless enough to reject that faithful soul?