Book of Mormon Study Group: Input wanted

[rnmomof7]

In my opinion, God the Father used the Holy Ghost to carry out the procedure of artificial insemination. And as to create v. organize, you're delving deeply into semantics. Think about it. Further, we believe that God created the entire Universe, and then organized matter in it to create worlds, etc.

What did the mormon god "create " out of . You do not believe in ex nihilo creation.

This is not semantics it is at the heart the differences in the mormon god and the God of the Jews and the Christians .

You have a god restricted by his human nature and body .

So in your mind did the heavenly father have to touch to produce the sperm ? Did the formless spirit then collect it and place it in the womb of mary ? Was it necessary for her to assume a conception position for the sperm of a god with a body to do that ?

I am sorry if that is blunt..but that is the question that one must ask of a limited former human god , that continues to be limited by his flesh and bone

Moreover, God created Jesus Christ first.

So jesus was never a spirit child? He was created out of nothing but the mind of god?
Where does it say that your doctrine of intelligences did not apply to christ?

Who was second? We know not. But we do know that God the Father created all of us as spirits-brothers and sister, and we existed in harmony for at least some period of time. Then Lucifer became power-hungry and rebelled against the Father. The War in Heaven ensued, and God cast Satan out of Heaven. Is there a problem with this? Catholics, from what I understand, believe the same.

So now are you saying that the doctrine of movement from eternal intelligence to spirit child to man to god is not true?

Catholics do not believe the war in heaven was over which son Lucifer or christ would be the savior

 

[Helaman]

What did the mormon god "create " out of . You do not believe in ex nihilo creation.

This is not semantics it is at the heart the differences in the mormon god and the God of the Jews and the Christians .

You have a god restricted by his human nature and body .

So in your mind did the heavenly father have to touch to produce the sperm ? Did the formless spirit then collect it and place it in the womb of mary ? Was it necessary for her to assume a conception position for the sperm of a god with a body to do that ?

I am sorry if that is blunt..but that is the question that one must ask of a limited former human god , that continues to be limited by his flesh and bone


So jesus was never a spirit child? He was created out of nothing but the mind of god?
Where does it say that your doctrine of intelligences did not apply to christ?


So now are you saying that the doctrine of movement from eternal intelligence to spirit child to man to god is not true?

The Holy Ghost removed sperm from God, who has a perfect, immortal body (not "human"), as easily as it artificially inseminated Mary. He is, after all, the Holy Ghost. And I think you misunderstood what I said about Christ. Christ was an intelligence, just like the rest of us, but FAR more advanced. He was the firstborn of the Father, spiritually, and was so advanced that He instantly became a member of the Godhead, as did the Holy Ghost. This is my PERSONAL belief. I don't know if the Church has an official doctrine on this issue.

 

[jessedance]

quote, "The Holy Ghost removed sperm from God, who has a perfect, immortal body (not "human"), as easily as it artificially inseminated Mary."

Doesnt this fly in the face of Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man. "
the new thing god created was a spermazoid he use to cause Mary to concieve. God created it just like he created everything else he created. He didn't have and arm a leg a head, a hand a sexual reproduction member. god is not a man
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

 

[Helaman]

quote, "The Holy Ghost removed sperm from God, who has a perfect, immortal body (not "human"), as easily as it artificially inseminated Mary."

Doesnt this fly in the face of Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man. "
the new thing god created was a spermazoid he use to cause Mary to concieve. God created it just like he created everything else he created. He didn't have and arm a leg a head, a hand a sexual reproduction member. god is not a man
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Okay, you lost me. I don't see the problem. We believe that God the Father has a perfect body of flesh and bone. We believe is the literal Father of Christ, spiritually AND physically. We believe that Mary was a virgin. My explanation is the only one I can think of that fits our beliefs.

 

[rnmomof7]

The Holy Ghost removed sperm from God, who has a perfect, immortal body (not "human"),

A body limited by human qualities of flesh and bone

as easily as it artificially inseminated Mary.

But you have no clue how that could have been done right? How did the spirit get the sperm out of the father? How did he get it into marys womb ?

Sperm are real live things that take up space , that can be touched and felt .They are not spiritual in nature they are physical in substance , so they had to be physically applied .

He is, after all, the Holy Ghost.

Who is not a god and is limited in his ability

The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a spirit that has the form and likeness of a man (see D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time.
(gospel principles )

So how did this creature in the form of a man deliver this sperm to mary ?

It says he 'overshadowed' her...what does that mean when the "spirit has a body ( a conflict in terms here )

And I think you misunderstood what I said about Christ. Christ was an intelligence, just like the rest of us, but FAR more advanced. He was the firstborn of the Father, spiritually, and was so advanced that He instantly became a member of the Godhead, as did the Holy Ghost. This is my PERSONAL belief. I don't know if the Church has an official doctrine on this issue.

It is nothing more than speculation on your part..but I guess that is the norm for the LDS

 

[Helaman]

It is nothing more than speculation on your part..but I guess that is the norm for the LDS

Could you be a little bit more insulting? Doesn't that qualify as flaming, or in other words a violation of the rules?

 

[rnmomof7]

Could you be a little bit more insulting? Doesn't that qualify as flaming, or in other words a violation of the rules?

I do not think it is flaming . It has been a discussion here that many of the beliefs are not "official" but are speculation on unaddressed doctrine . BTW I learned of the idea of speculation on doctrine from a mormon on another forum. And it does seem to be the rule as is shown in your comment that this is what you believe , but did not know if the church had a position .

If I wanted to flame ..I would have brought a match :>)

 

[CCWoody]

For the last time, God did not have sexual relations with Mary. Through the power of the Holy Ghost did Mary concieve Christ. That is our belief. Christ was the only one who is a literal, physical son of God, the rest are His spirit children, as such essentially created. Lucifer was the first of this buch, and then the rest of humanity came along. What I am saying is that God is rersponible for the creation, or birth, or being of everyone, and as such, He is their Father. He is therefore Lucifer's Father. If we all share the same father, we are all brothers and sisters.

In the pre-existence, no spirit child, Lucifer included had a physical body. We only hd our spirtul bodies.

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

You know, every single other Mormon I have ever had a conversation with has maintained that Elohiem was the one who "flavored" Mary with a tabernacle for Jesus. They have even pointed out the words of your own prophets. So, I am left with either the choice to believe you or believe your prophets as to what Mormons believe and teach.

No offense, but seeing that you are not a Mormon prophet or teacher, I'll accept their word over yours.

Secondly, it has been explained to me that if Mary had been conceived of the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit would be Jesus' "literal" father. So, because he is the son of God (Eloheim) it had to be him who did the deed. Therefore, even according to Mormon logic, you are found to be trying to deceive us.

So, let me ask plainly: If I were to again take a sample from Mormons and ask for their supporting citations, would they favor your words or something else?

 

[CCWoody]

The Holy Ghost removed sperm from God, who has a perfect, immortal body (not "human"), as easily as it artificially inseminated Mary. He is, after all, the Holy Ghost. And I think you misunderstood what I said about Christ. Christ was an intelligence, just like the rest of us, but FAR more advanced. He was the firstborn of the Father, spiritually, and was so advanced that He instantly became a member of the Godhead, as did the Holy Ghost. This is my PERSONAL belief. I don't know if the Church has an official doctrine on this issue.

I'll be taking this citation of your with me when I go and speak to the Mormons about how Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb.

BTW, I thought that a moral probation was needed before someone could be come a god. I didn't know that some of you, like Jesus, were born that way. I'll be asking about this as well.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

The Holy Ghost removed sperm from God, who has a perfect, immortal body (not "human"), as easily as it artificially inseminated Mary. He is, after all, the Holy Ghost. And I think you misunderstood what I said about Christ. Christ was an intelligence, just like the rest of us, but FAR more advanced. He was the firstborn of the Father, spiritually, and was so advanced that He instantly became a member of the Godhead, as did the Holy Ghost. This is my PERSONAL belief. I don't know if the Church has an official doctrine on this issue.

The Holy Gohst removed sperm from God and artificially inseminated Mary? Is this also your personal belief like the statements after it are?

Grace

 

[alaurie]

Can someone post a link to this earlier account of the First Vision? I would greatly appreciate it.

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

http://www.irr.org/mit/First-Vision-Accounts.html


Hope this is helpful ED.

Love,
Allye

 

[Tawhano]

Helaman said:
The Holy Ghost removed sperm from God, who has a perfect, immortal body (not "human"), as easily as it artificially inseminated Mary.

Not so according to the BofM:

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 15:1 - 4)
1 AND now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

God himself came down to dwell in flesh. God and Jesus were one and the same, Jesus being God in the flesh and God being spirit.