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Book of Mormon Study Group: Input wanted

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emerald Dragon

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rnmomof7 said:
But you are using your emotions as the truth dectector . Mormons do not even believe it is necessary to read it ..only hold it.

God does not "speak " to us by our feelings. He speaks to us by His word as found in the Bible.
The Bible tells us the heart is wicked above all things .
Our "heart " can deceive us . The word of God can not .

It is now official Mormon doctrine that Joseph was visited by the Heavenly Father and the Son (the basis of believing that God the father has a glorified human body and the son has a human body ...this of course BEFORE Jesus ever had a human body to show anyone.)
Thus the doctrine men become gods

But how was it seen at first?

For more than many years after Joseph's death, Mormon leaders identified the "personages" who appear to Joseph and mark the start of Mormonism as angels, rather than the Father and the Son. It was not until 1874 that Mormon leaders begin consistently associating the appearance of the Father and the Son with the First Vision and the commencement of Mormonism.* Based on this evidence it would appear that Joseph changed his story of the first vision, and that the most common and well known version was one of angels appearing rather than the Father and Son.

Brigham Young - "The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven ... but He did send his angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong"** Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 171 (1855)




Wilford Woodruff - "The same organization and Gospel that Christ died for ... is again established in this generation.* How did it come? By the ministering of an holy angel from God, out of heaven, who held converse with man, and revealed unto him the darkness that enveloped the world ... He told him the Gospel was not among men, and that there was not a true organization of His kingdom in the world"* Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 196 (1855)




Wilford Woodruff - "Joseph was strengthened by the Spirit and power of God, and was enabled to listen to the teachings of the angel. ... The man to whom the angel appeared obeyed the Gospel."* Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 197 (1855)




Heber C. Kimball - "Do you suppose that God in person called upon Joseph Smith, our Prophet? God called upon him; but God did not come himself and call, but he sent Peter to do it."* Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 29 (1857)




Orson Hyde - "Some one may say, 'If this work of the last days be true, why did not the Saviour come himself to communicate this intelligence to the world?' Because to the angels was committed the power of reaping the earth, and it was committed to none else."* Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 335 (1854)




John Taylor - "How did the state of things called Mormonism originate? We read that an angel came down and revealed himself to Joseph Smith"* Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 127 (1863)




George A. Smith - "he [Joseph Smith] went humbly before the Lord and inquired of Him, and the Lord answered his prayer, and revealed to Joseph, by the ministration of angels, the true condition of the religious world. When the holy angel appeared, Joseph inquired which of all these denominations was right and which he should join, and was told they were all wrong"* Journal of Discourses, vol. 12, p. 334 (1863)




George A. Smith - "[Joseph] was enlightened by the vision of an holy angel. When this personage appeared to him, one of the first inquiries was 'Which of the denominations of Christians in the vicinity was right?' "* Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 78 (1869)




Wilford Woodruff - "How did it [Mormonism] commence? It commenced by an angel of God flying through the midst of heaven and visiting a young man named Joseph Smith in the year 1827. ... The Lord heard his prayer and sent His angel to him, who informed him that all the sects were wrong"* Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 324 (1869)




John Taylor - "None of them was right, just as it was when the Prophet Joseph asked the angel which of the sects was right that he might join it. The answer was that none of them are right."* Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, p. 167 (1879)




Oliver Cowdery - "You will remember that I mentioned the time of a religious excitement, in Palmyra and vicinity to have been in the 15th year of our Brother J. Smith Jr.s age that was an error in the type ? it should have been in the 17th. ? You will please remember the correction, as it will be necessary for the full understanding of what will follow in time. This would bring the date down to the year 1823."* Times and Seasons, vol. 2, p. 241 (1840)





Early testimony that the name of the angel who appeared to Joseph was Nephi, not Moroni.





"He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 53 (1842)




"Again, when we read the history of our beloved brother, Joseph Smith, and of the glorious ministry and message of the angel Nephi"* Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 71 (1842)




Joseph Smith - "When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi."** 1851 Pearl of Great Price, p. 41 (1851)




Joseph Smith - "He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi."* Times and Seasons, vol. 3, p. 753 (1842)


So it seems there was uncertinity as to who delivered the document that gives men "burning breasts "


The bible says that no man can see God and live , It also says there will be many" false Christs" and that Satan is as an angel of light


I will leave you to ponder that my young friend

One-God does not just speak to us through His word. He speaks directly to us. I didn't just feel an emotion, I felt the presence of God, and His spirit telling me that it was true. I wasn't lead by my heart-I followed God.

What are you saying with the rest of the quote?

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon
 
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rnmomof7

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emerald Dragon said:
One-God does not just speak to us through His word. He speaks directly to us. I didn't just feel an emotion, I felt the presence of God, and His spirit telling me that it was true. I wasn't lead by my heart-I followed God.


What god? There is a god of this world and he is called satan .


What do you do with the fact that I too felt His presence , I too felt a witness of the Holy Spirit.

But I checked what I felt and believed with the authority of the Bible .



What are you saying with the rest of the quote?



Emerald Dragon

So it seems there was uncertinity as to who delivered the document that gives men "burning breasts "


The bible says that no man can see God and live , It also says there will be many" false Christs" and that Satan is as an angel of light


I am saying that Joseph Smith is a false prophet, a "story teller "and a con man .

I am saying that the vision he had was not from the God of creation .
 
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rnmomof7

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fatboys said:
FB:Journal of Discourses, Vol.12, p.334, George Albert Smith, November 15, 1868
Joseph Smith had attended these meetings, and when this result was reached he saw clearly that something was wrong. He had read the Bible and had found that passage in James which says "If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God that giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not," and taking this literally, he went humbly before the Lord and inquired of Him, and the Lord answered his prayer and revealed to Joseph, by the ministration of angels, the true condition of the religious world. When the holy angel appeared, Joseph inquired which of all these denominations was right and which he should join, and was told they were all wrong,--they had all gone astray, transgressed the laws, changed the ordinances and broken the everlasting covenant, and that the Lord was about to restore the priesthood and establish His Church, which would be the only true and living Church on the face of the whole earth.
Journal of Discourses, Vol.12, p.334, George Albert Smith, November 15, 1868
Joseph, feeling that to make known such a vision would be to subject himself to the ridicule of all around him, knew not what to do. But the vision was repeated several times, and in these repetitions he was instructed to communicate that which he had seen to his father. His father was not a member of any church, but was a man of exemplary life. His mother and bro. Hyrum were members of the Presbyterian church. Joseph communicated what he had seen to his father, who believed his testimony, and told him to observe the instructions that had been given him.
Journal of Discourses, Vol.12, p.334, George Albert Smith, November 15, 1868
These visits led, in a short time, to the bringing forth of the record known as the Book of Mormon, which contained the fullness of the Gospel as it had been preached by the Savior and his apostles to the inhabitants of this land; also a history of the falling away of the people who dwelt on this continent and the dealings of God with them.

*** Besides claiming that the Mormon Church is the only true church in existence today, Mormon leaders also assert that they alone have the correct understanding regarding the Godhead. Joseph Smith, the first prophet of the Mormon Church, affirmed that he had a vision in 1820 which demonstrated that the Father and the Son were two separate and distinct personages:





*** "So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods... I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.... When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all descriptions, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other -- This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!



*** "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join.... I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong) -- and which I should join.



*** "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.'



*** "He again forbade me to join with any of them... I went home... I then said to my mother, 'I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.'*" (The Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith -- History 1: 14, 16-20)






*** Because of Joseph Smith's story of the First Vision, and other statements made by him, Mormons believe that God Himself is actually an exalted man. In 1883, George Q. Cannon, a member of the First Presidency of the Mormon Church, emphasized the importance of Smith's vision:





*** "The first account we have of the visitation of divine beings in this dispensation, is the account that is given to us by the Prophet Joseph Smith himself, concerning the visit of the Father and the Son.... the very conception of the nature of God -- that is, of His characteristics -- had entirely faded from the human mind, and He was deemed to be something other than He is.... There was no man scarcely upon the earth that had a true conception of God; the densest ignorance prevailed; and even ministers of religion could not conceive of the true idea, and there was mystery associated with what is called the Trinity -- that is, with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. But all this was swept away in one moment by the appearance of the Almighty Himself -- by the appearance of God, the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ, to the boy Joseph... In one moment all this darkness disappeared, and once more there was a man found on the earth, embodied in the flesh, who had seen God... Faith was again restored to the earth, the true faith and the true knowledge concerning our Creator... This revelation dissipated all misconceptions and all false ideas, and removed the uncertainty that had existed respecting these matters. The Father came accompanied by the Son... Joseph saw that the Father had a form; that He had a head; that He had arms; that He had limbs; that He had Feet; that He had a face and a tongue with which to express His thoughts... it seems that this knowledge had to be restored as the basis for all true faith to be built upon." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 24, pages 371-72)






*** Although Joseph Smith's account of the First Vision sounds very impressive to those who do not know the whole story regarding this vision, a thorough historical investigation has demonstrated conclusively that it cannot be used to support the Mormon doctrine regarding God. Surprisingly, in 1965 we learned that there was another account of the First Vision written by Joseph Smith himself. When this account is compared with the official version published by the church, it becomes glaringly apparent that there are irreconcilable differences.




*** Moreover, this account was written in 1832, which is several years prior to the official version Joseph Smith dictated to his scribe. The official version was written about 1838, but it was not published until 1842. Consequently, the 1832 account is considered by historians to be the most accurate account of Joseph Smith's story.




*** We first published this early account of the First Vision in 1965 under the title, Joseph Smith's Strange Account of the First Vision. Because the document was so unusual, some members of the Mormon Church doubted its authenticity. Although the Mormon leaders would make no public statement concerning the document, Professor James B. Allen, who later became Assistant Church Historian, admitted that the document was genuine. In an article published in 1966 he commented:





*** "One of the most significant documents of that period... is a handwritten manuscript... by Joseph Smith. It contains an account of the early experiences of the Mormon prophet and includes the story of the first vision.... the story varies in some details from the version presently accepted... The manuscript has apparently lain in the L.D.S. Church Historian's office for many years, and yet few if any who saw it realized its profound historical significance." (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1966, page 35)






*** Mormon leaders suppressed this account of the First Vision for over 130 years, but after we printed it thousands of copies were circulated throughout the world. Finally, four years after we published the document, Dean C. Jessee of the Church Historian's Office made a public statement confirming the authenticity of the manuscript:





*** "On at least three occasions prior to 1839 Joseph Smith began writing his history. The earliest of these is a six-page account recorded on three leaves of a ledger book, written between the summer of 1831 and November 1832....



*** "The 1831-32 history transliterated here contains the earliest known account of Joseph Smith's First Vision." (Brigham Young University Studies, Spring 1969, pages 277-78)






*** In an article written in 1971, Dean Jessee confirmed that the account was actually penned by Joseph Smith: "This is the only known account of the Vision in his own hand. Most of his writings were dictated, which is not to say that other accounts are less authentic." (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Spring 1971, page 86)




*** A careful examination of this document reveals why the Mormon leaders never published or referred to it. Below is the important portion of this account of the First Vision taken directly from a photograph of the original document. The reader will notice that while this early account speaks of Jesus appearing, it never even mentions God the Father:





*** "...the Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in the attitude of calling upon the Lord in the 16th year of my age a piller of light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the Lord opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph my son thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy way walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life behold the world lieth in sin at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned asside from the gospel and keep not my commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them according to this ungodliness and to bring to pass that which hath been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Apostles behold and lo I come quickly as it was w[r]itten of me in the cloud clothed in the glory of my Father..."



*** A complete transcript of this document is found in An American Prophet's Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith, 1989, pages 3-8.






*** Although there are a number of contradictions between Joseph Smith's 1832 account and the official account published by the church, the most serious discrepancy involves the number of personages in the vision. In the later version, published in the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith said: "...I saw two personages." In Joseph Smith's 1832 handwritten account, however, he only mentioned one personage: "...I saw the Lord..." The context makes it very clear that the personage was Jesus Christ and that Joseph Smith did not include God the Father in the first handwritten account of the vision.




*** Mormon historian James B. Allen observed: "In this story, only one personage was mentioned, and this was obviously the Son, for he spoke of having been crucified." (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1966, page 40)




*** The only reasonable explanation for God the Father not being mentioned in this account is that Joseph Smith did not see the Father, and that he embellished the story after he wrote his first manuscript. This, of course, raises the question of whether Joseph Smith had any visitation from heaven when he was a boy.



*** Joseph Smith seems to have decided that the story he wrote in 1832 needed some new elements to impress people with how important the vision actually was and to bolster up his own role as a prophet of the living God. What would catch the audience's interest better than to have both the Father and the Son come down and personally visit him? Joseph Smith, therefore, decided to embellish his account.



*** Mormon Apostle John A. Widtsoe was highly impressed with Joseph's final product:





*** "It was an extraordinary experience. Never before had God the Father and God the Son appeared to mortal man. It was more astonishing in that it came to a half-grown boy....



*** "The First Vision was a challenge to the religious vagaries of the day. It shattered many a false doctrine taught throughout the centuries....



*** "A few, and a very few, had conceived God to be a person, not merely a personage. This view had ordinarily been laid aside, since it made God more nearly like man in body and powers....



*** "The First Vision... answered the centuries' old query about the nature of God. The Father and the Son appeared to Joseph as persons, like men on earth in form. They spoke to him as persons....



*** "From the early days of Christianity, the erroneous doctrine of the nature of God had led to... the conception that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the Godhead, were One, a unity....



*** "This false doctrine was laid low by the First Vision. Two personages, the Father and the Son, stood before Joseph. The Father asked the Son to deliver the message to the boy. There was no mingling of personalities in the vision. Each of the personages was an individual member of the Godhead. Each one separately took part in the vision." (Joseph Smith: Seeker After Truth, Prophet of God, 1951, pages 4-7)







*** Now that Joseph Smith's 1832 handwritten account of the First Vision has come to light, Apostle Widtsoe's arguments come crashing to the ground. It is clear that the official account Smith wrote six years later was embellished to fit his changing view of God. When Joseph Smith published the Book of Mormon in 1830, his views concerning God were similar to those held by Christian ministers of his day. Although Smith believed that there was only one God when he "translated" the gold plates of the Book of Mormon, he later decided that there were two Gods and eventually concluded that there were many Gods.




*** The fact that Joseph Smith's first written account of the First Vision only mentioned one personage is consistent with what he believed about God when he dictated the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon, proclaimed that Christ was God Himself manifest in the flesh:





*** "And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son... And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation..." (Book of Mormon, Mosiah 15: 1, 2, 5)






*** The Book of Mormon tells of a visitation of the Father and the Son to the "brother of Jared," but the account is not speaking of two separate personages. Only one personage appears, and this personage says:





"Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have light... they shall become my sons and my daughters." (Ether 3:14)






Mormon scholar Melodie Moench Charles acknowledges that it is difficult to reconcile the teachings regarding God found in the Book of Mormon with the present teachings of the church. She argues, in fact, that at least some of the teachings of the Book of Mormon regarding God go even beyond the orthodox Trinitarian doctrine in emphasizing the oneness of God:





*** "Recently when I was teaching the Book of Mormon in an adult Sunday school class we discussed Mosiah 15.... I said that I saw no good way to reconcile Abinadadi's [sic] words with the current Mormon belief that God and his son Jesus Christ are separate and distinct beings. I suggested that perhaps Abinadi's understanding was incomplete.



*** "The class response included defenses of revelation and prophets... and accusations that I was crossing the line of propriety and wisdom to suggest that a prophet could teach incorrect doctrines about God. Some people appreciated a public acknowledgment of an obvious difference between Book of Mormon doctrine and current church doctrine. A few friends said things like, 'I don't care what they say about you. I've wondered about that passage for a long time, and I'm glad somebody pointed out that it's not what we teach today.' But many class members thought the lesson inappropriate and upsetting, and soon I was demoted to teaching nursery....



*** "When we explore what the Book of Mormon says, its christology or doctrines concerning Christ differ from the christology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since at least the 1840s....



*** "Book of Mormon people asserted that the Father and Christ (and the Holy Ghost) were one God. When Zeezrom asks Amulek, 'Is there more than one God?' Amulek, who learned his information from an angel, answers, 'No' (Alma 11: 28-29). At least five times in 3 Nephi, Jesus says that he and the Father are one. Emphasizing that oneness with a singular verb, Nephi, Amulek, and Mormon refer to 'the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, which is one God' (2 Ne. 31: 21; Alma 11: 44; Morm. 7: 7, emphasis added).







*** "This is common trinitarian formula....



*** "In isolation the Book of Mormon's 'which is one God' statements sound like orthodox trinitarianism, but in context they resemble a theology rejected by orthodoxy since at least 215 C.E., the heresy of modalism (also known as Sabellianism). Modalists believed that for God to have three separate identities or personalities compromised the oneness of God. Therefore, as Sabellius taught, 'there is only one undivided Spirit; the Father is not one thing and the Son another, but... both are one and the same' (Lonergan 1976, 38). Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three labels for the different functions which the one God performed.... The Book of Mormon often makes no distinction between Christ and God the Father. For example, Jesus in 3 Nephi talked about covenants which his father made with the Israelites, and yet beyond anything he claimed in the New Testament he also claimed that he was the God of Israel who gave them the law and covenanted with them...



*** "The Book of Mormon melds together the identity and function of Christ and God. Because Book of Mormon authors saw Christ and his Father as one God who manifested himself in different ways, it made no difference whether they called their god the Father or the Son. They taught that Jesus Christ was not only the one who atoned for their sins but was also the god they were to worship. He was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the God of Israel and the Book of Mormon people....



*** "Like the Book of Mormon, Mormonism before 1835 was largely modalistic, making no explicit distinction between the identities of the Father and the Son. Yet Mormonism gradually began to distinguish among different beings in the Godhead. This means the christology of the Book of Mormon differs significantly from the christology of the Mormon church after the 1840s....



*** "The current theology that most Mormons read back into the Book of Mormon is tritheism: belief in three Gods. Joseph Smith and the church only gradually came to understand the Godhead in this way. When he translated the Book of Mormon, Smith apparently envisioned God as modalists did: he accepted Christ and Christ's father as one God. In his first written account of his 'first vision' in 1832 Smith told of seeing 'the Lord' -- one being....



*** "Later, in 1844, Smith said, 'I have always declared God to be a distinct personage -- Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and or Spirit, and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods'... Mormon history does not support Smith's claim about what he taught earlier. Documents from early Mormonism reflect that Smith went from belief in one god to belief in two and later three gods forming one godhead....



*** "Book of Mormon theology is generally modalistic. In the Book of Mormon, God and Jesus Christ are not distinct beings." (New Approaches to the Book of Mormon, 1993, pages 82, 96-99, 103-104, 110)






*** When all the evidence is carefully examined it becomes obvious that Joseph Smith interpolated his later view regarding God the Father into his story of the First Vision. Consequently, Mormons who are not acquainted with the evidence still rely on the later account to prove that God the Father is an exalted man.




*** There are other serious problems with the official account of the First Vision. For example, Smith's reworked version stated that the vision followed a revival which had taken place in his neighborhood in 1820. Wesley P. Walters, however, conclusively established that no such revival took place in Palmyra in 1820. The revival actually began in the fall of 1824 and continued into 1825 (see Inventing Mormonism, by H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, pages 15-41) The 1832 account, of course, did not even mention such a revival.




*** In addition, Joseph Smith's 1835-36 diary contains other accounts of his First Vision which tend to add to the confusion. For instance, in one account Joseph Smith told Erastus Holmes regarding his "juvenile years, say from 6 years old up to the time I received the first visitation of Angels which was when I was about 14 years old." (An American Prophet's Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith, page 59)




*** Mormon leaders were apparently embarrassed that Smith spoke of angels but neglected to mention either the Father or the Son in this account! Therefore, in the published History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 312, the statement has been changed to read: "...I received my first vision, which was when I was about fourteen years old..." Another account in the same diary (page 51) has Joseph Smith saying that he "saw many angels in this vision." (For a thorough examination of the many conflicting statements in Joseph Smith's accounts of the First Vision see our book, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? pp. 143-153)




*** Marvin S. Hill, professor of American history at the church's Brigham Young University, tried to defend the idea that Joseph Smith had an important religious experience in the grove, but he had to admit that Joseph Smith's official 1838 account has some real problems. He, in fact, suggested that the 1832 account of the vision was probably more accurate than the official account and that Joseph Smith may have changed his theological views concerning God:





*** "It seems to me that everybody has approached the issue from the wrong end, by starting with the 1838 official version when the account they should be considering is that of 1832. Merely on the face of it, the 1832 version stands a better chance of being more accurate and unembellished than the 1838 account... I am inclined to agree that the religious turmoil that Joseph described which led to some family members joining the Presbyterians and to much sectarian bitterness does not fit well into the 1820 context detailed by Backman. For one thing, it does not seem likely that there could have been heavy sectarian strife in 1820 and then a joint revival where all was harmony in 1824. In addition, as Walters notes, Lucy Mack Smith [Joseph Smith's mother] said the revival where she became interested in a particular sect came after Alvin's death, thus almost certainly in early 1824.... An 1824 revival creates problems for the 1838 account, not that of 1832....



*** "At any rate, if Joseph Smith in 1838 read back into 1820 some details of a revival that occurred in 1824, there is no reason to conclude that he invented his religious experiences....



*** "Giving priority to the 1832 account also makes it more understandable why Oliver Cowdery got his story tangled.... If initially Joseph said one personage came to him in 1820, it became easier for Oliver Cowdery to confuse this visit with the coming of Moroni than it would have been a few years later when Joseph taught emphatically that there were three separate personages in the Godhead.



*** "The Tanners make much of the argument that Joseph Smith changed his view of the Godhead. There is a good deal of evidence that his understanding grew on many points of theology... If, as the Tanners argue, Joseph grew in his understanding of the nature of the Godhead, this does not provide evidence of his disingenuousness...



*** "It seems to me that if the Latter-day Saints can accept the idea that Joseph gained his full understanding of the nature of God only after a period of time, instead of its emerging fullblown in 1820, then most of the difficulties with chronology can be resolved... As James Allen shows, Joseph never cited his vision with respect to the nature of the Godhead. This use of the vision came long afterward." (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Summer 1982, pp. 39-41)






*** Since the Mormon Church canonized the 1838 account of the First Vision in the Pearl of Great Price (one of the four standard works of the church), it seems very doubtful that the church will follow Professor Hill's suggestion about giving "priority to the 1832 account" of the vision. In any case, Thomas G. Alexander, who is also a professor of American history at BYU, agrees that a theological shift in Joseph Smith's view concerning the Godhead caused him to change his story from one to two personages:





*** "One of the barriers to understanding Mormon theology is the underlying assumption by most Latter-day Saints that doctrine develops consistently, that ideas build cumulatively on each other. As a result, older revelations are usually interpreted by referring to current doctrinal positions. This type of interpretation may produce systematic theology and may satisfy those trying to understand and internalize the current doctrine, but it is bad history since it leaves an unwarranted impression of continuity and consistency....



*** "The Book of Mormon tended to define God as an absolute personage of spirit who, clothed in flesh, revealed himself in Jesus Christ (see Abinadi's sermon to King Noah in Mos. 13-14).... there is little evidence that early church doctrine specifically differentiated between Christ and God. Indeed, this distinction was probably considered unnecessary since the early discussion also seems to have supported trinitarian doctrine. Joseph Smith's 1832 account of his first vision spoke only of one personage and did not make the explicit separation of God and Christ found in the 1838 version. The Book of Mormon declared that Mary 'is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh,' which was changed in 1837 to 'mother of the Son of God.' Abinadi's sermon in the Book of Mormon explored the relationship between God and Christ...



*** "The 'Lectures on Faith' differentiated between the Father and Son more explicitly, but even they did not define a materialistic, tritheistic godhead. In announcing the publication of the Doctrine and Covenants, which included the lectures, the Messenger and Advocate commented that it trusted the volume would give 'the churches abroad... a perfect understanding of the doctrine believed by this society.' The lectures declared that 'there are two personages who constitute the great matchless, governing and supreme power over all things -- by whom all things were created and made.' They are 'the Father being a personage of spirit' and 'the Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made, or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man, or, rather man was formed after his likeness, and in his image.' The 'Articles and Covenants' called the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost 'one God' rather than 'Godhead,' a term Mormons use today to separate themselves from trinitarians.



*** "The doctrine of the Holy Ghost in these early sources is even more striking compared to our point of view today. The 'Lectures on Faith' defined the Holy Ghost as the mind of the Father and the Son, a member of the Godhead but not a personage, who binds the Father and Son together (D&C [i.e., Doctrine and Covenants], 1835 ed., 53-54). This view of the Holy Ghost likely reinforced trinitarian doctrine by explaining how personal beings like the Father and Son become one god through the noncorporeal presence of a shared mind." (Line Upon Line, edited by Gary James Bergera, 1989, pages 53-55)





*
 
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rnmomof7

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Ammon said:
Indeed. I don't have time to read those things. :(

Perhaps that is why you are still in the darkness of Mormonism

A condensed post for you

*** Although Joseph Smith's account of the First Vision sounds very impressive to those who do not know the whole story regarding this vision, a thorough historical investigation has demonstrated conclusively that it cannot be used to support the Mormon doctrine regarding God. Surprisingly, in 1965 we learned that there was another account of the First Vision written by Joseph Smith himself. When this account is compared with the official version published by the church, it becomes glaringly apparent that there are irreconcilable differences.




*** Moreover, this account was written in 1832, which is several years prior to the official version Joseph Smith dictated to his scribe. The official version was written about 1838, but it was not published until 1842. Consequently, the 1832 account is considered by historians to be the most accurate account of Joseph Smith's story.




*** We first published this early account of the First Vision in 1965 under the title, Joseph Smith's Strange Account of the First Vision. Because the document was so unusual, some members of the Mormon Church doubted its authenticity. Although the Mormon leaders would make no public statement concerning the document, Professor James B. Allen, who later became Assistant Church Historian, admitted that the document was genuine. In an article published in 1966 he commented:





*** "One of the most significant documents of that period... is a handwritten manuscript... by Joseph Smith. It contains an account of the early experiences of the Mormon prophet and includes the story of the first vision.... the story varies in some details from the version presently accepted... The manuscript has apparently lain in the L.D.S. Church Historian's office for many years, and yet few if any who saw it realized its profound historical significance." (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1966, page 35)






*** Mormon leaders suppressed this account of the First Vision for over 130 years, but after we printed it thousands of copies were circulated throughout the world. Finally, four years after we published the document, Dean C. Jessee of the Church Historian's Office made a public statement confirming the authenticity of the manuscript

* "On at least three occasions prior to 1839 Joseph Smith began writing his history. The earliest of these is a six-page account recorded on three leaves of a ledger book, written between the summer of 1831 and November 1832....



*** "The 1831-32 history transliterated here contains the earliest known account of Joseph Smith's First Vision." (Brigham Young University Studies, Spring 1969, pages 277
 
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AMMON

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It is incredibly fallacious to conclude that just because Joseph wrote in 1832, "...I saw the Lord..." that he did not see both the Father and the Son. Perhaps he was given instructions at the time to not mention the Father. Perhaps he referred to them as one because they are one in purpose but separate in being. Perhaps because Christ spoke the most, he referred to Christ. The possibilities are endless. The syllogism, however, is fallacious. Namely, (1) Joseph said he saw the Lord, (2) if someone says they see one person, no other people could be present, (3) therefore Joseph only saw one being. Fallacious.
 
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baker

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Ammon said:
It is incredibly fallacious to conclude that just because Joseph wrote in 1832, "...I saw the Lord..." that he did not see both the Father and the Son.
Counselor, I trust this is not the type of defense you would ever present in court. If I gave a depostion (ie; written account of my testimony) and then changed it later, you would have a field day, no?

Your claim of fallaciousness escapes me!!!


Perhaps he was given instructions at the time to not mention the Father. Perhaps he referred to them as one because they are one in purpose but separate in being. Perhaps because Christ spoke the most, he referred to Christ. The possibilities are endless.
Opposing counsel: Ladies and gentlemen, perhaps Mr. Smith made this up in the first place. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps...


The syllogism, however, is fallacious. Namely, (1) Joseph said he saw the Lord, (2) if someone says they see one person, no other people could be present, (3) therefore Joseph only saw one being. Fallacious.
Judge: Counselor, we need to take a 30 minute recess after that closing argument. Court will adjourn until the laughter dies down.^_^
 
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rnmomof7

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Ammon said:
It is incredibly fallacious to conclude that just because Joseph wrote in 1832, "...I saw the Lord..." that he did not see both the Father and the Son. Perhaps he was given instructions at the time to not mention the Father. Perhaps he referred to them as one because they are one in purpose but separate in being. Perhaps because Christ spoke the most, he referred to Christ. The possibilities are endless. The syllogism, however, is fallacious. Namely, (1) Joseph said he saw the Lord, (2) if someone says they see one person, no other people could be present, (3) therefore Joseph only saw one being. Fallacious.

Perhaps . perhaps . perhaps ..

But Joseph and your church called them angels too. maybe he was confused huh ?.There is no consensus in the "prophets" of your churches past (if one arrives at truth by consensus )

"No man hath seen God at any time
(John 1:18)

Not that any man hath seen the Father,
save he which is of God, he hath seen
the Father. *(John 6:46)

No man hath seen God at any time."
(John 1:18)
 
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gort

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Exo 33:20 And He said, You cannot see My face. For there no man can see Me and live.

Exo 33:21 And Jehovah said, Behold! There is a place by Me, and you shall stand upon a rock.



Exo 33:22
And it will be, while My glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by.



Exo 33:23
And I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back parts. But My face shall not be seen.
:bow:



<><
 
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CCWoody

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Oh, goodie! You come to a Christian Forum and find the non-Christian Mormons proselytizing with their little book. Why is it that they never want to talk about all their other more interesting false dogmas.

Boo!
 
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emerald Dragon

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rnmomof7 said:
What god? There is a god of this world and he is called satan .


What do you do with the fact that I too felt His presence , I too felt a witness of the Holy Spirit.

But I checked what I felt and believed with the authority of the Bible .





So it seems there was uncertinity as to who delivered the document that gives men "burning breasts "


The bible says that no man can see God and live , It also says there will be many" false Christs" and that Satan is as an angel of light


I am saying that Joseph Smith is a false prophet, a "story teller "and a con man .

I am saying that the vision he had was not from the God of creation .

I believe with the authority of the bible. I also believe in the authority of the BoM, and that Satan can not touch us, or put thoughts into our heads in a sincere prayer to God. God answered me, not Satan. I believe that the Prophet Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, called by God, and the work that He did was true.

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon
 
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Tawhano

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emerald Dragon said:
Can someone post a link to this earlier account of the First Vision? I would greatly appreciate it.
I second the request. I can’t find it anywhere. Also where can I find the second account. I thought it was in my copy of the BoM, D&C and Pearl but can’t find that either.
 
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CCWoody said:
Oh, goodie! You come to a Christian Forum and find the non-Christian Mormons proselytizing with their little book. Why is it that they never want to talk about all their other more interesting false dogmas.

Boo!

The members of The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) are the quintessential Christians. We believe in Christ; we worship Christ; we follow Christ; we study Christ; we patter our lives after the teaching of Christ; we testify of Christ; we develop personal relationships with Christ; we take upon ourselves the name of Christ. He is the foundation of our religion. He is our Savior and Master. Our love, dedication, and focus on Christ is second to none. We are Christians.
 
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