Body of Christ (Church) vs. Israel

[visionary]

We've already had much accomplished - as it cocnerns redeemptiona and reconcilliation...all found in Yeshua. ....<snip>...

What Yeshua has done is just the start.. and bringing in His blood into the heavenly sanctuary is the second stage.. the results are yet to be accomplished for we are still in a quagmire of sin that is overflowing into all kinds of unrighteousness from the top down and the whirlwind promised is coming. Yeshua will be victorious and sin will reign no more, but it is not yet accomplished. The war is not over... is has yet to climax.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Yes, and Yeshua is not finished yet with the redemption plan.......

As said before, when it comes to returning home to him (in the same way the prodigal son returned home to his father/was redeemed), we already have that established in the sacrifice of Yeshua.

The early Jewish church understood the concept of redeemption by blood as being based on what occurred with the Levitical sacrifices when a spotless lamb was presented before the priests, sacrificed and atonement happened with the shedding of blood since life was in the blood....and with Christ, His blood is what justified the believer, according to the early church, while His resurrection confirmed it (like a receipt/confirmation) and opened up the way for the Spirit to keep us.

Interestingly enough, the concept of the blood being what saved came across as cannibalism toward outsiders to the world of believers...and they constantly had to defend against it. For good study resources:

• Symbols of Jesus: a Christology of symbolic engagement - Page 64
• The Jewish temple and the Christian church: a series of discourses ... - Page 320
• In the shadow of the temple: Jewish influences on early Christianity - Page 391

The blood was shed for the forgiveness of sins...and when we confess our sins, it cleanses us.

1 John 1:4
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.

​

When looking at Hebrews 9:13-14 – on how the Blood of Christ Purifies the Conscience – many fascinating things come into view. Christ's sacrifice of himself is superior to animal sacrifices prescribed by the law of Moses. The blood of Christ purifies people's consciences so that they might worship God. Hebrews depicts Jesus' death and exaltation as actions that purify the human conscience. In the Old Testament, the high priest went into the inner part of the earthly sanctuary, bringing animal blood to make atonement. Jesus, however, offered himself up through his death on Calvary, and he has been exalted to God's sanctuary in heaven, where he ministers on behalf of others. The message of this act of grace is what awakens faith in people, and faith is what brings people into right relationship with God. This is why the author can say that Christ's death cleanses the conscience. By awakening faith, the message of Christ's death removes the barrier of sin and guilt, restoring people to right relationship with their Creator.

The scriptures teach that we must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved (John 1:12; 6:28-29; Acts 16:31). Romans 10:8-11 adds the element of our Lord’s resurrection, which Paul indicates is an essential part of the gospel also in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4ff. Hebrews (chapters 9 & 10) and 1 Peter (1:18-19), among others, place much emphasis on the shed blood of Christ. According to Romans 3:25, one must place "faith is his blood" ...trusting in the Finished WORK OF THE Messiah for redeemption.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

What Yeshua has done is just the start.. and bringing in His blood into the heavenly sanctuary is the second stage.. the results are yet to be accomplished

Not according to scripture, nor what early Jewish believers noted directly when it came to the blood of Christ for redeemption TODAY. Again, to deny such is not lining up with Yeshua and what he accomplished - unless, of course, one believes that they do not have forgiveness of sins now and thus still lost.

But as said before, the Word of God is plain on us already having redeemption by His blood now.

Revelation 5:10
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign[a] on the earth.”
​

John 6:52-54

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.


​

Acts 20:27-29
27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock

Romans 3:24-26
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[a] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Romans 5:8-10
8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life.....


Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
Ephesians 1:6-8


Colossians 1:19-21
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[a] your evil behavior.



Hebrews 9:11-13
The Blood of Christ
11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[b] eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.



Hebrews 9:24-26
24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.



Hebrews 13:11-13
11 The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. 13 Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.



1 Peter 1:16

17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.



1 John 1:6-8
6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[a] sin. 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.


Revelation 1:4
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[a] before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.


​

for we are still in a quagmire of sin that is overflowing into all kinds of unrighteousness from the top down and the whirlwind promised is coming.

Yeshua will be victorious and sin will reign no more, but it is not yet accomplished. The war is not over... is has yet to climax.

Sin - as it concerns others choosing to do so until Yeshua comes back - isn't the same as showing that Yeshuas purchased presently redeemption of sins and restoration in the Father for all who trust in Him.

To conquer all kingdoms and enemies before rulling physically is what mankind is waiting for - and that is something the early body of Jewish believers taught consistently in the 1st century. It's why they didn't physically choose to get involved in revolts defending the State of Israel in that time - for the Kingdom of Yeshua was not of the world...and would be consumated in His return

 

[yedida]

Yes, and Yeshua is not finished yet with the redemption plan....... The fall feasts outline how it will all be finished.. how sin will ultimately be dealt with, and how we will be saved from sin, where righteousness reigns, and complete reconciliation is accomplished.

And He has made it clear what is going to happen to those who are found lawless.

 

[visionary]

As said before, when it comes to returning home to him (in the same way the prodigal son returned home to his father/was redeemed), we already have that established in the sacrifice of Yeshua.

The early Jewish church understood the concept of redeemption by blood as being based on what occurred with the Levitical sacrifices when a spotless lamb was presented before the priests, sacrificed and atonement happened with the shedding of blood since life was in the blood....and with Christ, His blood is what justified the believer, according to the early church, while His resurrection confirmed it (like a receipt/confirmation) and opened up the way for the Spirit to keep us. ...<snip>... .

I wouldn't blame the early church with stopping short of understanding that there is more to the story that what you just presented. That is just the milk part... wait til you get to the meat... All that you brought up is found in the spring feasts, what you are missing is the fall feasts and their fulfillment coming. Hebrews, Revelation, and Daniel get into that. Colossians 2:16-17 allude to the "shadow of things to come"........

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I wouldn't blame the early church with stopping short of understanding that there is more to the story that what you just presented.

They didn't stop short - seeing that the early Jewish believers loved God'S law/Torah and what Yeshua taught - and because of that, it's why the church understand that to teach that redeemption was not already available by His blood (as all the Apostles taught) was to go beyond what Yeshua noted when making plain salvation was found for all who trusted in Him.

Anyone going past that goes past TOrah and what Christ-Centric Judaism always held central - and such views (just as they are today) were always seen to be counter to what Yeshua already noted.

That is just the milk part...

wait til you get to the meat...

Pretty much the same thing that was said by the other groups in the early body of believers who did not feel the sacrifice of Yeshua was enough - and sadly, they didn't even realize how much like milk it was what they were saying....in refusal of the meat that comes from addressing what Yeshua noted

All that you brought up is found in the spring feasts, what you are missing is the fall feasts and their fulfillment coming

. Hebrews, Revelation, and Daniel get into that. Colossians 2:16-17 allude to the "shadow of things to come"........

Spring feasts deal with Yeshua returning in power. Not with his sacrifice which was already done - and that's something that was well understood in the 1st century church (if one understands basics in history)

 

[visionary]

Not according to scripture, nor what early Jewish believers noted directly when it came to the blood of Christ for redeemption TODAY. Again, to deny such is not lining up with Yeshua and what he accomplished - unless, of course, one believes that they do not have forgiveness of sins now and thus still lost.

But as said before, the Word of God is plain on us already having redeemption by His blood now.

Are you presenting that this sin laden earth is the end of the story, that God can not clean it up any better. Remember first washed with water then will be cleaned by fire. The story is not over... there is not denying what the blood of Yeshua accomplished for forgiveness of sins now.. still clinging to the cross in the outer court?

 

[visionary]

They didn't stop short - seeing that the early Jewish believers loved God'S law/Torah and what Yeshua taught - and because of that, it's why the church understand that to teach that redeemption was not already available by His blood (as all the Apostles taught) was to go beyond what Yeshua noted when making plain salvation was found for all who trusted in Him.

Anyone going past that goes past TOrah and what Christ-Centric Judaism always held central - and such views (just as they are today) were always seen to be counter to what Yeshua already noted.
Pretty much the same thing that was said by the other groups in the early body of believers who did not feel the sacrifice of Yeshua was enough - and sadly, they didn't even realize how much like milk it was what they were saying....in refusal of the meat that comes from addressing what Yeshua noted
Spring feasts deal with Yeshua returning in power. Not with his sacrifice which was already done - and that's something that was well understood in the 1st century church (if one understands basics in history)

MJ's message is unique by its feasts and understanding the role it plays in understanding the first coming fulfillments of Yeshua, and based on that what the falls feasts will play in the second coming. Understanding the feasts is not going past Torah but delving deeper into the truths found in Torah.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Are you presenting that this sin laden earth is the end of the story, that God can not clean it up any better. Remember first washed with water then will be cleaned by fire. The story is not over... there is not denying what the blood of Yeshua accomplished for forgiveness of sins now.. still clinging to the cross in the outer court?

Lest I said that the earth was the end of the story (and that has never been noted), no need assuming such or reading more into what's said. For as said before and as others also echoed earlier, the focus is what the Lord has done with the believer - redeeming them PRESENTLY by His Blood/sacrifice and justifying them in His death/resurrection. It is against the GOspel to claim otherwise just as the early Jews noted when it came to why they were persecuted by the Roman Empire for sharing that simple message - and Yeshua coming back to rule over the earth is not same as His redeeming His saints/conquering all previously. His return - as Paul noted directly in I Corinthians 15 - is a consumation of all things...not the beginning since he already has ALL power.

I Corinthians 15:12

The Risen Christ, Our Hope

12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
The Last Enemy Destroyed

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”[a] But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Colossians 1:6

Preeminence of Christ

9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13

He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood,[c] the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Reconciled in Christ

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Colossians 2:11

11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[c] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
​

Either one believes what the Word says...or they don't. But the Apostles were clear that Yeshua has risen with ALL power and is triumphant - with us simply awaiting his return to consildate all other accounts The message of the apostles was always going back to the Cross/Sacrifice and Resurrection - and thus, others not focusing on it tend to cling to that which Yeshua made clear was to be let go of

 

[Gxg (G²)]

MJ's message is unique by its feasts and understanding the role it plays in understanding the first coming fulfillments of Yeshua, and based on that what the falls feasts will play in the second coming.

Fulfillment in the sense (as the early Jewish church noted) of how Christ already mirrored others in what they spoke of and always pointed to - and others in future actions having yet to be fulfilled. This is something that again is very basic - as the Feasts are not about saying Yeshua has not conquered or redeemed His people. They are road-maps to what will happen in the future while we await and already experience victory in Him.

Most of this has already been covered before, v, in previous conversations on rudimentary principles, as shared here in #55 and Messanic Jews holy days. ..and other threads such as Yom Kippur/The Rapture connection?! ( on the issue of what Yom Kippur would bring in the future) or Yom Kippur and the Name and the Third Temple? A lot of the Holy Days cannot be celebrated in the same ways as they used to be during the OT, but for the most part Messianics seek to celebrate the major ones--especially ones such as Shavout, Passover Yom Kippur and many others. There are others who also support the minor Jewish holidays as well, such as New Moon Festival . For some info, one can go here or here/examine the following:

• Fall Feasts - Ariel Ministries
• Ariel Ministries: Feasts of the Lord
• The Jewish Holidays - - Hebrew for Christians

__________________


As said before, the Biblical Holidays were not abolished but were given new significance for those already ( Matthew 26:28 /John 7:38 )....since with the Lord's Supper now in effect, one can celebrate Passover as a shadow/reminder of what the Lord has done for us ( Matthew 26:16-18 Matthew 26 /Luke 22:14-16 Luke 22 /John 13:1-3 John 13 1 Corinthians 5:6-8 1 Corinthians 5 ) - for they were always roadmaps pointing to him.

​

And as shared before, for reference:

we are part of a Kingly lineage thru Yeshua , as Heirs to HIS throne. without a Kingly lineage you cannot be an Heir. That is why it so important we know Yeshua's heritage to prove he is worthy of the throne he claims to bare.

That lineage passes to us by virtue that we become Sons Of YAHWEH, by accepting the Atonement from Yeshua.

We are sons of man thru Adam, we become Sons of YAHWEH thru the second Adam..Yeshua. therefore Heirs.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God&#8217;s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
1 Peter 2:8-10

Revelation 1:5-7
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[a] before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father&#8212;to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

7 &#8220;Look, he is coming with the clouds,&#8221;[b] and &#8220;every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him&#8221;;
and all peoples on earth &#8220;will mourn because of him.&#8221;[c]
So shall it be! Amen.

Revelation 5:10
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.&#8221;
Revelation 5:9-11

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5-7
​

All because of the Blood/Sacrifice of Christ. For Christ is truly the Prototype of the kind of priests we were meant to be...and as it concerns newness of life, he is the model of the Resurrection. For he is truly the Firstborn from the dead ( Colossians 1:17-19 , Revelation 1:4-6 , etc), in that He was...and always will be...the PROTOTYPE of what it is that will follow for all Trusting in the Father as He did and looking unto His finished Work (John 11). And all who look to Him will be adopted into the Resurrection power JUST AS HE was adopted into the Resurrection from the dead...

I Corinthians 15:20
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

​

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
​

James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

​

And for anyone who wanted more information on the ways priesthood connects with the celebration with the Feast of Firstfruits..as it concerns Christ being the Firstfruits of the Resurrection/Heavenly priesthood, here are some good resources that may be a blessing:

• THE FEAST OF FIRSTFRUITS
• Reishit Katzir - First Fruits - Hebrew for Christians
• Easter &#8211; From the Messianic Jewish Perspective | Beta Version
• The Seven Festivals of Messiah - Hebraic Heritage Ministries "The festival of the sheaf of the first fruits is prophetic of the resurrection of Yeshua. Yeshua prophesied that He would rise three days and nights after He was slain on the tree (Matthew [Mattityahu 12:38-40; 16:21; Luke 24:44-46). This was foreshadowed to happen in the Tanach (Old Testament) by type and shadow (Genesis [Bereishit] 22:1-6; Exodus [Shemot] 3:18; 5:3; 8:27; Esther 4:15-17; Jonah 1:7; 2:1-2)."
• The Omer and the Messiah - First Fruits of Zion "The symbolism is strong. Just as the first omer of barley was brought as a first fruits of the whole harvest, so too Messiah's resurrection was a first fruits of the resurrection of the dead. This is the imagery Paul invokes with the words, "Messiah has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep."[2] Just as the first fruits of the barley made all the rest of the harvest kosher for harvest, so too the resurrection of Messiah makes the resurrection of the dead possible."
• Yeshua Fulfills the Spring Feasts - Return to God "The four Spring Feasts picture the first coming of Yeshua. He sacrificed Himself on the Feast of Passover, was buried on the Feast of Unleavened Bread, was resurrected on the Feast of First Fruits, and He sent the Holy Spirit on the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost)."
• Response to Tikvah Michael's article in FFOZ's Messiah Magazine "Easter and the Resurrection" (as seen here)

Shalom

​

Again, some of this is rather basic and already understood.

Understanding the feasts is not going past Torah but delving deeper into the truths found in Torah.

No one said anything remotely close to the claim that understanding the feasts was going past Torah - since the Torah already speaks on them and the Messiah fulfills them all in reference to how they always pointed to Him.

Again, context.

What was noted was that saying we do not already have redeemption and forgiveness by His blood currently - as in it being a DONE deal as the Jewish body of believers always noted in agreement with the apostles - goes past what Yeshua did when it came to the sacrifical system being fulfilled in His death and resurrection.

 

[visionary]

... <snip>....Either one believes what the Word says...or they don't. But the Apostles were clear that Yeshua has risen with ALL power and is triumphant - with us simply awaiting his return to consildate all other accounts The message of the apostles was always going back to the Cross/Sacrifice and Resurrection - and thus, others not focusing on it tend to cling to that which Yeshua made clear was to be let go of

agreed.. either one believes what the Word says or they don't... that means all of the Word and all of Torah... Yeshua will indeed return with all power and truimph when God crowns Him king... but He has to accomplish the task of High Priest before His Father, cleanse the heavenly sanctuary, cleanse all unrighteousness, before He can take off the robe of High Priest and come back as our King... There is so much more understanding that is needed in order for God's people to be caught up with Him in knowledge and understanding... It is found in the feasts..

 

[Gxg (G²)]

agreed.. either one believes what the Word says or they don't... that means all of the Word and all of Torah... Yeshua will indeed return with all power and truimph when God crowns Him king... but He has to accomplish the task of High Priest before His Father, cleanse the heavenly sanctuary, cleanse all unrighteousness, before He can take off the robe of High Priest and come back as our King... There is so much more understanding that is needed in order for God's people to be caught up with Him in knowledge and understanding... It is found in the feasts..

God already crowed him as King, y - and although we await His return, He already accomplished the task of High Priest before His father and cleansed the HEAVENLY Sanctuary. That is basic in understanding what early Jewish believers understood on the Torah and what the Messiah did in past tense. And as said before, one either believes it - or they don't...and end up going past what He/the Apostles noted plainly for an innovative view not necessary.

Hebrews 5:5http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ps.2.7&version=NKJV
For every high priest taken from among men is appointed for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness. 3 Because of this he is required as for the people, so also for himself, to offer sacrifices for sins. 4 And no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was.
A Priest Forever

5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.”[a]
​

6 As He also says in another place:

“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;[b]
​

7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

Hebrews 9:11-13
The Blood of Christ
11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[b] eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.


Hebrews 9:24-26
24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 13:11-13
11 The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. 13 Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.

​

Things are already a DONE deal as it concerns the Priesthood (eternal) of Yeshua and His redeeming us by His blood The Feasts always point back to Him in remembrance - but He has accomplished his work in redeeming us.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Making it obligatory I agree.

Got ya

 

[visionary]

What was noted was that saying we do not already have redeemption and forgiveness by His blood currently - as in it being a DONE deal as the Jewish body of believers always noted in agreement with the apostles - goes past what Yeshua did when it came to the sacrifical system being fulfilled in His death and resurrection.

then... why use all these christian website when we have great MJ teachers.?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

then... why use all these christian website when we have great MJ teachers.?

One, it would have to be shown that anything given was not already said by MJ teachers - or by those who were Jewish believers in the early body of believers. Nothing stated comes anywhere close to that and it'd be avoiding much to claim such..be it in what believers said in Israel during the 1st century or what others have said in the 20th/21st century. There've already been plenty of MJish teachers noting the same thing - in addition to Messianic Jewish churches. Whether that be Dan Juster of Tikkun Ministries International, Dr. Michael Brown of "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus" and "Real Messiah", Asher Intrader of Revive Israel Ministries, of James Jacob Prasch of Moriel Ministries , Rico Cortez, and many others found in the Sticky Resource section, other Messianic Jewish teachers have already been noted....and as said before elsewhere, to say that any disagreement from them leads to being not "Messianic Jewish" is like a Caucasian from the suburbs saying that those in African-American culture are not truly "black" the moment other blacks speak up and note where the man's definition of blackness doesn't line up with the cultural definition of such.

Two, one would have to show that what was said was said by "Christian websites" which are not Messianic Jewish - as opposed to Jewish followers of Yeshua who came out of Judaism as non-believers and trusted in the Lord...and if using the term "Christian" to mean "that which isn't Jewish", that'd be problematic since it is deragatory to Jewish believers in the Messianic movement who've long noted that saying "That's Christian!!" doesn't equate to showing something counter to the Jewish culture/teachings on God's Law that Yeshua supported. That...and it's already understood that it's against the rules to demean such in trying that. Whether you like it or not, you are a Christian within the Messianic Jewish movement - one claiming the name of Christ (I Peter 4, etc.) - and Jewish believers have noted this since the days of the Apostles. If claiming to not be a Christian, however, then one has another set of problems to deal with - one of the greatest being that they're at odds with what has been a focus in MJish movement for a long time...and counter to what the apostles noted.

Three, it was never the case that one used "all these christian websites" when discussing plainly what the Torah/Law of God and words of Yeshua state on the issue - a lot of it not addressed alongside other things - and thus, that is something that must always be considered.

 

[visionary]

The Feasts always point back to Him in remembrance - but He as accomplished his work in redeeming us.

and forward to the "shadow of things to come".

 

[Gxg (G²)]

and forward to the "shadow of things to come".

Yep Yep

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Yes heirs to the promise(singular) which is Messiah pertaining to the Gentiles. .

An amazing promise it is in Yeshua

 

[visionary]

...<snip>....
Things are already a DONE deal as it concerns the Priesthood (eternal) of Yeshua and His redeeming us by His blood The Feasts always point back to Him in remembrance - but He has accomplished his work in redeeming us.

?? what evidence is that all is accomplished... is sin gone from earth... as it is in heaven ... obviously not... nor has the fall feasts been accomplished... there is much more work to be done by our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary.. for when He leaves the temple.. the plagues fall.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

?? what evidence is that all is accomplished... is sin gone from earth....

Adding more into the text than what was present - for Yeshua having a high priesthood eternally isn't the same as saying He has to wipe out all sin on the earth forever for that to occur. His priesthood was already said in the text to cleanse us presently of our sins - and he'd never stop being in that role.

Again, as the scriptures make plain:

Hebrews 5:5
For every high priest taken from among men is appointed for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness. 3 Because of this he is required as for the people, so also for himself, to offer sacrifices for sins. 4 And no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was.
A Priest Forever

5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.”[a]
​

6 As He also says in another place:

“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;[b]
​

7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

Hebrews 9:11-13
The Blood of Christ
11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[b] eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.


Hebrews 9:24-26
24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 10:7
First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[b]
​

17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[c]
​

18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
A Call to Persevere

19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
​

Hebrews 13:11-13
11 The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. 13 Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.
​

nor has the fall feasts been accomplished

Already noted earlier where it was not accomplished yet, had you paid attention. Those things not being fulfilled has no bearing on the fact that others have already been laid out pertaining to our redeemption/purification and the Holy Spirit - while in the realm of eternity where all things are already done (and we in a temporal reality await the fulfillment of what Yeshua already is experiencing at the end of all things - the ALPHA and the OMEGA)....we wait for him to show visible action with the Fall Feasts/Judgement on the world. It's a done deal already from God's perspective on multiple ends.

... there is much more work to be done by our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary

As it concerns the Fall Feasts and His return, of course. Again, that was already noted directly - but on purification, redeemption and justification as well as securing eternal victory for the saints, that's another issue..

for when He leaves the temple.. the plagues fall

He is always in the Heavenly Temple, v. Saying otherwise is an innovative thought which the Jewish believers never suscribed to in the early body of believers since that's not how temple was understood from the perspective of Torah.