It looks like you have a long list here Ez and I understand that you are trying to present some proof about misconduct here but man you have every accusation in the world going on here
And your using assumptions that somehow Christians have a shield called the creed to protect them from every debate
And your speaking for staff adding to our words or taking us out of context
It's dangerous to accuse with sweeping generalizations as if folks hear something long enough they will start to believe it whether its true or not
I haven't seen any of that happening here while trying to get to the bottom of this
But I do appreciate that some of the church goers here would be uncomfortable having Christian doctrine dissected and challenged ... It gets to me sometimes too
Don't step in as the sarogate mod ok
I will tell you now what is acceptable and just relax when I'm done ok?
No need to tell me how staff is run I have been around for years and this area was developed by me so I know exactly the expectation in this area
This area is a safe haven for the congregation listed
MJ as well as a few others is comprised of a jumble of Messianic groups not all in total agreement so the sop is very important
Of course those that are closer in agreement to it are going to be the most comfortable here and those having issues with it will be least comfortable but that is always the case when groups are more general
We ask folks that if you have unresolved issues with the sop deal with them by avoiding those topics of discussion don't campaign to have them changed and don't push an agenda to demonize folks you disagree with
But sometimes folks feel so frustrated that they don't fit in quite right with in their own faith group or congregational group they react in a kinda battle vibe and even if they don't see that's what they are doing, they will go into attack mode for long periods of time
When that happens we have to take it back to the sop
Ask yourselves
Where does this sop not fit me and my lifestyle exactly
Can I live with the fact that I don't line up exactly in here compared with others
Or will it drive me crazy
Some folks can brush up the small differences but not the big ones and some can even handle the big differences with no issues
Please everyone look at what the sop says and do some soul searching to see if this place is right for you
1. Being Torah positive is a trait of Messianic Judiasm -whether folks live it out in a small way or in extream ways is the spectrum we have to deal with
If you don't fit in the spectrum don't jump into threads that discuss that topic
2. Non observance although a reality isn't what MJ is known for- if your nonobservant don't promote that practise as that isn't any better than some one who says Torah is abolished- just skip those subjects and enjoy the fellowship here
I don't think I can be any more concise than that
As far as the list of complaints above one thing
3.The sop protects the Torah observer( the full spectrum) and non Torah observer from flames by pointing out
Ok ?
And your using assumptions that somehow Christians have a shield called the creed to protect them from every debate
And your speaking for staff adding to our words or taking us out of context
It's dangerous to accuse with sweeping generalizations as if folks hear something long enough they will start to believe it whether its true or not
I haven't seen any of that happening here while trying to get to the bottom of this
But I do appreciate that some of the church goers here would be uncomfortable having Christian doctrine dissected and challenged ... It gets to me sometimes too
Don't step in as the sarogate mod ok
I will tell you now what is acceptable and just relax when I'm done ok?
No need to tell me how staff is run I have been around for years and this area was developed by me so I know exactly the expectation in this area
This area is a safe haven for the congregation listed
MJ as well as a few others is comprised of a jumble of Messianic groups not all in total agreement so the sop is very important
Of course those that are closer in agreement to it are going to be the most comfortable here and those having issues with it will be least comfortable but that is always the case when groups are more general
We ask folks that if you have unresolved issues with the sop deal with them by avoiding those topics of discussion don't campaign to have them changed and don't push an agenda to demonize folks you disagree with
But sometimes folks feel so frustrated that they don't fit in quite right with in their own faith group or congregational group they react in a kinda battle vibe and even if they don't see that's what they are doing, they will go into attack mode for long periods of time
When that happens we have to take it back to the sop
Ask yourselves
Where does this sop not fit me and my lifestyle exactly
Can I live with the fact that I don't line up exactly in here compared with others
Or will it drive me crazy
Some folks can brush up the small differences but not the big ones and some can even handle the big differences with no issues
Please everyone look at what the sop says and do some soul searching to see if this place is right for you
1. Being Torah positive is a trait of Messianic Judiasm -whether folks live it out in a small way or in extream ways is the spectrum we have to deal with
If you don't fit in the spectrum don't jump into threads that discuss that topic
2. Non observance although a reality isn't what MJ is known for- if your nonobservant don't promote that practise as that isn't any better than some one who says Torah is abolished- just skip those subjects and enjoy the fellowship here
I don't think I can be any more concise than that
As far as the list of complaints above one thing
3.The sop protects the Torah observer( the full spectrum) and non Torah observer from flames by pointing out
Please don't find yourself making someone else feel miserable about their own personal choices of following Torah by using their experience as a yardstick
Ok ?
Gxg (G²);62209220 said:Hey Tish
By no means is debate of Christian teaching being confused with personal practice - as as others Messianics have noted that before. There's a difference between someone saying, in example, that they don't prefer to go to Church on Sunday - and someone else saying "All Christians are decieved to go to Church on Sunday" or "Christians who have fellowship on Sunday rather than Saturday are Non-Observant Violators of God's Law."
All of them, nonetheless, have all been held accountable for things that they are not to do as it concerns the Site Wide rules. There are already cases where others have said in Catholic forums where they have differences in view - be it Eastern Catholics not seeing marriage the same or Roman Catholics having a differing view on certain saints. However, one thing that stays consistent is that there is proclamation that Christ is LORD - and if anyone said on that forum or others that Christians do not love the Lord and that the Nicene Creed was not godly, it was not supported. Other mods have pointed that out as well when it comes to the fact that everyone posting MUST be a Christian rather than self-proclaiming to not be Christian and engage in trying to denoucne any/all who are....
The fellowship you're at with the UMJC does not advocate that Christianity and Messianic Judaism are different - nor does it support bashing of Christians in claiming "Christians don't keep the Mosaic Law" or that anyone Christian does not value the Torah/Festivals. This is not a difficult issue to understand, IMHO.
This is also in addition to the fact that that on each/every forum there is NO personal attacks allowed. Regardless of differences between an Eastern Catholic and a Roman Catholic - or differences in other groups - they do not go around at any point saying of the other "Well, you're just not CATHOLIC " and get others to join in. For that goes starkly against the Site Wide forum rules of not doing personal commentary/attacks on others - as opposed to dealing with postings. The same should apply here as well - if wer're to be consistent. ContraMundum has noted that. Messianic Mommy has noted that. Macher has noted that and dozens of other Messianic Jews/Messianic Gentiles who adhere to Messianic Judaism.
As said before:
These are the same things other Messianic Jews have noted before on the boards - should it be taken as if it is solely myself who has noted the issue. Messianic Judaism at large has spoken out against this simple reality multiple times - especially as it concerns One Law and not dealing properly with Torah Observance when it comes to not realizing distinction. This is not to say, for example, that Gentiles are somehow NOT allowed to observe if the wish. Rather, it is an issue of speaking in generalities rather than honoring what Jewish believers have said since the days of Christ when it comes to Gentiles not being called to all of the same things as Jews did.
- Claiming that Christians universally do not adhere to the Law of God (Torah)/Mosaic code while Messianics do.
- Claiming that Christians universally say the Torah is done away with
- Claiming that Gentiles are all called to observe all Laws that the Hebrews were called to - in the name of Messianic Judaism.
- Claiming that those who do not claim Gentiles are meant to look like Hebrews/Jews at all points are not Messianic Jews or with Messianic Judaism
The forum was never said to be for other congregations - as what was noted was that the forum is for discussion on Messianic Judaism.
What tends to happen is that ONE FORM of what happens in Messianic Judaism seems to be protected - whereas other forms (the dominant ones) like the UMJC or MJAA that do support Christianity/have no issue seeing Messianic Judaism as being Jewish Christianity are told by a select number of others to be "against Messianic Judaism." Whenever that happens, as other Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles have noted, you really do not have diversity as much as one side trying to dictate what they want.
There was consensus made not too long ago that others wanted diversity - and that those not liking it simply could choose to leave matters alone. That has not been respected - and that is an issue, IMHO, of hypocrisy since the same people often complaining do not do what they ask of others.
I agree.
That is on the same level as someone saying ( as was said in this thread and others) "You're outside the Kingdom of God for eating a Ham Sandwhich" or "You're not apart of the Kingdom because you don't feel that Gentiles were called specifically to be circumcised/shave their beards as the Hebrews have."
This has come up often in multiple places. People have claimed "We need Torah Observance" and yet they don't respect the fact that their own level of observance was never the universal standard - nor do they even come close to observing at all points/places. When people make room for themselves in saying what they do or don't observe in certain places while condemining others for doing the same, that is an issue of inconsistency
That makes sense. Nonetheless, I do think that what you noted also works in reverse - as it concerns others debating their right to NOT eat - and then trying to push the matter onto others saying "You have to stop eating that" or "You need to stop saying that!!" ...and then having entire conversations shifting toward that focus in the name of how they feel you don't observe well enough...or close to what they want.
It would be one thing if someone said "I understand you feel you have freedom to eat that sandwhich - but I don't think it's right".....but it'd be another thing to claim "You're a wannabee, Tish - just like every other Jew who believes - they are just converts to Christianity or Hebrew Christians!!".......and when they continue on discussing that/claiming you're not truly Observant, I would think it would need to end there. That is what others have been seeking to point out.
Just a couple of postings ago, it was said that others were "dishonest/decieving" simply for disagreeing. That was never dealt with. The same thing goes for others such as Contra and Qnts2 who are Messianic Jews and yet it was said they were not truly Observant - a grave insult to Messianic Jews and something they've said before.
People have been checked for far less in the name of "That was a personal attack" - yet it's allowed to flourish with no intervention.
Amen - and I do not believe anyone is of the mindset that Christian theology is protected here if it differs from Messianic Jewish teaching or the SoP.
What others are noting is that much of Mainstream Messianic Judaism has already been directly in line with Christianity - just as the early body of Jewish believers were for centuries. When it comes to MJ teaching - be it the UMJC or the MJAA or the IMJA and others - this is soemthing that is discussed often. Yet it is often claimed that Messianics do not do things that most Messianic Jews have long said to be myths. Examples would be:
Of course Christian theology is not protected here if its different from MJ teaching or our sop - but as other mods have said, all of that is within the system of what CF has said on the Christianity it supports - each and every forum being asked to do just that.
- Many Messianics have always gone to Church on Sunday while also seeing Saturday as Sabbath
- Many have noted Torah to be instructive for the Nations/Gentiles while also seeing that Torah already gave clear cut distinctions - with many laws never being applicable to Gentiles for mandatory observance.
- Many have long said they LOVE the Church
And they've also said where the Lord works powerfully there in Non-Messianic circles just as in Messianic Jewish ones.
- Many have long noted that Christianity is FAR from being Anti-Semitic or Anti-Israel - especially for those familar with Jewish Christianity or Christian Zionism and others who have long said that Israel is God's chosen people and that the Lord will defend her.
No one goes into the Faith Forums claiming "Yeshua was never God in the Flesh" since the UnOrthdox boards were made for that - as that's something which was said to not be allowed SITE Wide on any of the Faith Forums. It was said that ALL of the Faith Boards are expressely seen as Christian Communities and Christian Faith Groups - and the impression one gets is that it's allowed for anyone to come onto them and say that Christianity is essentially something God is not pleased while Messianic Judaism is where it's at.
Every other forum has been asked to be held to account for this - and it's why every other forum has noted that each SoF cannot be used to make room for others to say anything that mocks Christianity or Christians or the Nicene Creed. If that was not the case, then it's the case that we're essentially an Anti-Christian forum that is more than content saying that denouncing CHrisitanity is appropriate.
That's not what others have said, Sister Tish. Again, others have noted how many were told they were not "apart of the Kingdom" - whereas others blantantly claimed those not observing in the same way as them were simply "NON-Observant" at ALL Points - and then going so far as to claim people were teaching Torah was not for Gentiles...despite where others with differing levels already said Torah can be instructive for Gentiles.
That one is always interesting - seeing that all here desire to observe the TOrah/God's laws - and yet it's consistently claimed that people not observing in one area and sharing their stance (when questioned) are teaching "non-observance." That's like saying someone is "Non-Observant" at all points when it comes to noting that they don't shave the edges of their beard due to thinking it was for a specific group ...and yet they already celebrate the festivals/feasts and practice Kosher or help the poor.
It was said of others that they are not truly Messianic Jewish as well. All of those things have been noted/pointed out dozens of times - but it often seems it simply gets avoided.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
