Bob Jones

[Simon Peter]

It's amazing what people will say.

Do you mean the truth? It's amazing that people would tell the truth?

I see a huge whitewash regarding Bob Jones. It's amazing what people will overlook.

Bob Jones was a real servant of God. Though he made some mistakes (like everybody here)

Like everybody here?

Has anyone else here had young women undress in their office so they could be naked before the Lord and receive personal prophecies?

No? I guess not like everybody here.


When Bob Jones came out of a lunatic asylum - where he said demons spoke to him daily - he went around several churches interrupting meetings and causing a nuisance. These churches rejected him as a prophet, and said that he had a demon that needed to be cast out.

But then the Kansas City Prophets (IHOP) took him under their wing. But instead of dealing with demon, Mike Bickle and KCP accepted Bob as a prophet.

Fast forward past many unbiblical practices, and then a well respected pentecostal pastor, Ernie Gruen from the Kansas City area, was so outraged by what the Kansas City Prophets were letting Bob Jones get away with, that he published a report:

DOCUMENTATION OFF THE
ABERRANT PRACTICES AND
TEACHINGS OFF
KANSAS CITY FELLOWSHIP

This report, also known as the 'Ernie Gruen Report', was well documented with many witnessed first hand accounts. The report was over 130 pages of unacceptable practices and teachings, and Bob Jones is mentioned 238 times.

The Ernie Gruen Report is what cause the Kansas City Prophets to change their name to the International House of Prayer (IHOP).


And all this was before Bob Jones introduced Todd Bentley to his female so called 'angel' Emma. Which unleashed another demonic scandal on the church.

​

Bob Jones was a wolf in a child's sheep costume. Only a church without any discernment whatsoever could think otherwise.


peace,
Simon

 

[contango]

Do you mean the truth? It's amazing that people would tell the truth?

I see a huge whitewash regarding Bob Jones. It's amazing what people will overlook.




Like everybody here?

Has anyone else here had young women undress in their office so they could be naked before the Lord and receive personal prophecies?

No? I guess not like everybody here.


When Bob Jones came out of a lunatic asylum - where he said demons spoke to him daily - he went around several churches interrupting meetings and causing a nuisance. These churches rejected him as a prophet, and said that he had a demon that needed to be cast out.

But then the Kansas City Prophets (IHOP) took him under their wing. But instead of dealing with demon, Mike Bickle and KCP accepted Bob as a prophet.

Fast forward past many unbiblical practices, and then a well respected pentecostal pastor, Ernie Gruen from the Kansas City area, was so outraged by what the Kansas City Prophets were letting Bob Jones get away with, that he published a report:

DOCUMENTATION OFF THE
ABERRANT PRACTICES AND
TEACHINGS OFF
KANSAS CITY FELLOWSHIP

This report, also known as the 'Ernie Gruen Report', was well documented with many witnessed first hand accounts. The report was over 130 pages of unacceptable practices and teachings, and Bob Jones is mentioned 238 times.

The Ernie Gruen Report is what cause the Kansas City Prophets to change their name to the International House of Prayer (IHOP).


And all this was before Bob Jones introduced Todd Bentley to his female so called 'angel' Emma. Which unleashed another demonic scandal on the church.

​

Bob Jones was a wolf in a child's sheep costume. Only a church without any discernment whatsoever could think otherwise.


peace,
Simon

Do you have links for those reports?

 

[JavaQueen2]

isn't it just like the Pharisees to expose people...IF he did do that, it was SO long ago. I just tried to google it and nothing came up. WHO are you people to hold sins against ANYONE, never mind one man. REALLY? This is a "spirit" filled area but NOT the Holy Spirit. HE would NOT expose someones past sins. This place is SICK.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Do you mean the truth? It's amazing that people would tell the truth?

I see a huge whitewash regarding Bob Jones. It's amazing what people will overlook.




Like everybody here?

Has anyone else here had young women undress in their office so they could be naked before the Lord and receive personal prophecies?

No? I guess not like everybody here.


When Bob Jones came out of a lunatic asylum - where he said demons spoke to him daily - he went around several churches interrupting meetings and causing a nuisance. These churches rejected him as a prophet, and said that he had a demon that needed to be cast out.

But then the Kansas City Prophets (IHOP) took him under their wing. But instead of dealing with demon, Mike Bickle and KCP accepted Bob as a prophet.

Fast forward past many unbiblical practices, and then a well respected pentecostal pastor, Ernie Gruen from the Kansas City area, was so outraged by what the Kansas City Prophets were letting Bob Jones get away with, that he published a report:

DOCUMENTATION OFF THE
ABERRANT PRACTICES AND
TEACHINGS OFF
KANSAS CITY FELLOWSHIP

This report, also known as the 'Ernie Gruen Report', was well documented with many witnessed first hand accounts. The report was over 130 pages of unacceptable practices and teachings, and Bob Jones is mentioned 238 times.

The Ernie Gruen Report is what cause the Kansas City Prophets to change their name to the International House of Prayer (IHOP).


And all this was before Bob Jones introduced Todd Bentley to his female so called 'angel' Emma. Which unleashed another demonic scandal on the church.

​

Bob Jones was a wolf in a child's sheep costume. Only a church without any discernment whatsoever could think otherwise.


peace,
Simon

Is there any sin that irritates God more than blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? I would say no... so whatever Bob Jones may have done in error before, if the man truly repented then God forgave it as should you. For his sins are no worse than yours, slander can be just as deadly and much more dangerous for it's subtle...

Anyways, I looked up that report you mention and while it raises from valid points, the response from Mike Bickle was about as good as could be expected and only strengthens my belief in the man as a true man of God. What you have stated about the KC Prophets is inaccurate anyway, which could have been summised by your accusatory tone.

The Kansas City Prophets were a part of Bickle's ministry in the late 80's and early 90's yes, but that was not the name of the ministry Bickle headed. It was first Kansas City Fellowship and then (as known now) as Metro Christian Fellowship. Mike Bickle started International House of Prayer in 1999 as a seperate entity, not a continuation of the same controversial ministry as you say. So please if you are going to accuse the brethren, be correct and accurate.

http://www.watchman.org/profiles/pdf/ihopprofile.pdf

*THE ABOVE LINK IS A DEFAMATORY REPORT ON IHOP'S DOCTRINES AND PRACTICES BUT THE HISTORY IT CHRONICLE'S IS WHY I POST IT HERE*

 

[Simon Peter]

Do you have links for those reports?

A quick search brings up this article, for example:

Bob Jones | Apologetics Index


You can view/download the Ernie Gruen report here:

http://www.banner.org.uk/kcp/Abberent Practises.pdf

isn't it just like the Pharisees to expose people...IF he did do that, it was SO long ago. I just tried to google it and nothing came up. WHO are you people to hold sins against ANYONE, never mind one man. REALLY? This is a "spirit" filled area but NOT the Holy Spirit. HE would NOT expose someones past sins. This place is SICK.

And yet the Bible is filled with peoples past sins...
If you ever want to read about someone's past sins, read your Bible.

FTR: I don't hold anyone's sins against them. But God has told us to judge people in the church. Church is not a 'do as thou wilt' environment, particularly for leaders.


What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
1 Corinthians 5:12 NIV


(2) Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
(3) not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
(4) He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect.
(5) (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?)
(6) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.
(7) He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.
(8) Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain.
(9) They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience.
(10) They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
(11) In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
1 Timothy 3:2-11 NIV



peace,
Simon

 

[Simon Peter]

Is there any sin that irritates God more than blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? I would say no... so whatever Bob Jones may have done in error before, if the man truly repented then God forgave it as should you. For his sins are no worse than yours, slander can be just as deadly and much more dangerous for it's subtle...

What do you think the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is?
What is your definition?

If Bob Jones truly repented, then of course God forgave him.

But even if God forgave Bob for the 'naked young women incident', for example, does that mean we carry on like nothing happened, or should that have excluded him from certain leadership positions?
As Ernie so famously said in his report:
Do we keep smiling and say nothing?

You say 'Bob's sins are no worse than mine', but that is only true in the sense that any sin separates us from God. Sins are not all equal.

Are you hinting that I am slandering Bob Jones?
You do know that slander is a FALSE report about someone?
A truthful report is not slander.

Anyways, I looked up that report you mention and while it raises from valid points, the response from Mike Bickle was about as good as could be expected and only strengthens my belief in the man as a true man of God.

Wow! You read the whole 130 page report that quickly?

What you have stated about the KC Prophets is inaccurate anyway, which could have been summised by your accusatory tone.

If you believe it's wrong to accuse people, why do you accuse me?

The Kansas City Prophets were a part of Bickle's ministry in the late 80's and early 90's yes, but that was not the name of the ministry Bickle headed. It was first Kansas City Fellowship and then (as known now) as Metro Christian Fellowship. Mike Bickle started International House of Prayer in 1999 as a seperate entity, not a continuation of the same controversial ministry as you say. So please if you are going to accuse the brethren, be correct and accurate.

LOL...If your going to be pedantic, then read what I said very carefully.


Am I not a part of the brethren?
Apparently you believe it's OK to criticise/accuse the brethren!

Are you able to see the hypocrisy?

peace,
Simon

 

[contango]

A quick search brings up this article, for example:

Bob Jones | Apologetics Index


I'm not sure if the Ernie Gruen report is still available online, but I have a copy, so will post a link for you download:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28868437/Temp/Kansas City Prophets Abberent Practises.pdf

Thanks for the PDF, the reason I ask for links rather than doing a Google search for myself is to see whatever documents you're referring to specifically.

I've seen a few articles online that link Bob Jones to the New Apostolic Reformation but would want more than "a web site somewhere says he's NAR" before rejecting his teachings, just as I want more than "someone on an internet forum says he's a sound teacher" before accepting his teachings.

And yet the Bible is filled with peoples past sins...
If you ever want to read about someone's past sins, read your Bible.

FTR: I don't hold anyone's sins against them. But God has told us to judge people in the church. Church is not a 'do as thou wilt' environment, particularly for leaders.

True, somewhere we have to strike a balance between forgiving and restoring, and protecting others.

To take an extreme example, if the person in charge of the Sunday School was found to have abused the children in their care, true repentance should be met with forgiveness but that doesn't necessarily mean they would ever lead the Sunday School again.

The idea that we shouldn't judge seems to come from Matt 7:1, but if that verse is read in the context of the following verses it becomes clear that we should not judge hypocritically. If we have a log in our own eye we need to fix our own issues before fixing the lesser issues of others. But the fact Jesus said how once we had removed the log from our eye we could see clearly to remove the speck from our brother's eye shows that removing the speck is a valid thing to do as long as we're not looking through a log to do it.

 

[Alive_Again]

If you ever want to read about someone's past sins, read your Bible.

There are many things written there for our learning and admonition. If you look at the New Testament, it does not contain a laundry list of people's sins. Paul spoke of being very familiar with sin, yet God saw fit to exclude them from the Bible (except his "BC" days of persecution) That was included to demonstrate the grace of God and His calling being made without personal qualification.

Although you might make a point that the hall of faith people in Hebrews had many sins, God saw fit not to include them. Only unrepentant sinners like the one who slept with his father's wife, Hymeneus, the two who withhold money for the sale of their property for personal gain, and people like these were mentioned.

When a person repents, He remembers their sins no more. That should be the attitude and practice of the church. If your sins were presented here in the name of "judging the church", you'd feel quite differently. Also, who would go into the ministry if they were going to be heralded?

If someone in leadership, or one who enters into leadership has a recent issue with sin, then there are reasons to look more carefully at the current behavior, or to restore one who had fallen. These things are done privately. If the sin or accusation is more widely known, then the elders might address any concerns based on their observance and fruits of repentance being obvious to all. The Word says how to clear yourselves of a matter in repentance and if a person does that, they should not have to carry the "banner" of those sins wherever they go. I would guess that your research in this area (which would affect your judging is lacking, AND if you were actually called to do that in a local body). Since you lack this information and you are not an elder there, then your judgment is amiss, applying the scripture "liberally", but not righteously.

It is the WORLD that does that. It is the accuser of the brethren that brings up the ledger of their own note taking. The enemy, btw, does take notes on what works in you and your family's life.

Angels record your life and the words you speak. If there is sin, it it removed from the records when you repent. So to bring this up is only legitimate if you are sure they have not repented.

Those with a big call on their life are often targeted by the enemy. They often carry more angels with them and the enemy, if they find part of their life out of order, gets in to wreak havoc. This could happen with ANYONE.

But God has told us to judge people in the church. Church is not a 'do as thou wilt' environment, particularly for leaders.

That might be more relevant if YOU were an elder where he attended. The judging would be for the unrepentant, or for those who are being restored. The call of God on someone's life is without repentance. That means if you're called to be a pastor and you commit adultery, if you repent, the call of God is still on your life to pastor. There IS a restoration process and the fruits of repentance must be demonstrated.

You have to decide if you believe you received your judgment on Bob from the Holy Spirit (as an unrepentant sinner), or if you want to align your testimony with the accuser of the brethren, furthering his work and mucking up the name of a servant of God.

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
1 Corinthians 5:12 NIV

When this is taken out of context it appears to give anyone in the church a license to bring up past sins, which is a stench before God. Also, just because someone does not agree with him doctrinally, does not make him a "false teacher". Bob preached the Lordship of Jesus Christ, the Word of God, and the ministry of the Holy Spirit, and there is plenty of evidence to prove that.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

What do you think the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is?
What is your definition?

If Bob Jones truly repented, then of course God forgave him.

But even if God forgave Bob for the 'naked young women incident', for example, does that mean we carry on like nothing happened, or should that have excluded him from certain leadership positions?
As Ernie so famously said in his report:
Do we keep smiling and say nothing?

You say 'Bob's sins are no worse than mine', but that is only true in the sense that any sin separates us from God. Sins are not all equal.

Are you hinting that I am slandering Bob Jones?
You do know that slander is a FALSE report about someone?
A truthful report is not slander.



Wow! You read the whole 130 page report that quickly?



If you believe it's wrong to accuse people, why do you accuse me?



LOL...If your going to be pedantic, then read what I said very carefully.


Am I not a part of the brethren?
Apparently you believe it's OK to criticise/accuse the brethren!

Are you able to see the hypocrisy?

peace,
Simon

I simply stated a retort to what you said. I gave FACTS to your assumptions, because most of what you said is NOT fact. That's it...

 

[Alive_Again]

Hundreds of thousands of Christians who have bought into the controversial 'renewal and revival' movements, such as the Toronto Blessing or the Pensacola Outpouring, eagerly accepted anything and everything Bob Jones had to say.
Discerning Christians knew better, and rejected his Jones' plethora of occult visions, unbiblical teachings and false prophecies.

'

I wouldn't be surprised if the "Apologetics index" people are not Spirit Filled. If they knew anything at all (in God's view) about these things, they wouldn't be proclaiming themselves as "discerning Christians".

They are likely unable to judge by the real fruits because they're in the realm of finger pointing carnal Christians who judge mentally based on their understanding of the scriptures. The enemy uses people like this to bring up sins and wave them about like they were the current reality.

People like that terrify me.

It is a good barometer to see where people are in the area of judging when a respected minister of the gospel who had at any time in their life an issue with sin (everyone, yours just isn't known). If we find ourselves leaning toward the attributes of the goats, let us run from doing those things and condemn them (not the person) for what it is really is. And move on.

Although it is unfortunate that believers persecute other believers, they get a good reward for daring to go forward in the ministry (in spite of what would obviously oppose them by continuing to do so.)

 

[ToBeBlessed]

This is what I found in the Word.

1 Timothy 1-13
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus"

Another thought here as we talk about discernment and if leaders should come back into ministry.


Let us not forget that these people make a lot of money from their ministries. What's to say that money, sex, or whatever hasn't corrupted their hearts. If they allow corruption around them, covering it up, then should they run a major ministry?

Another thought to ponder..... I was reading about Ted Haggard comments about the suicide of Isaac Hunter and how he feels the evangelical community doesn't support them being rehabilitated and shuns them at their time of need. If you want to read it "Ted Haggard Says Suicides of Pastor Isaac Hunter, Others Reflect Flaws in 'Evangelical Culture'

 

[Simon Peter]

Alive_Again,

You can try and spin how the Bible exposes, judges, and criticises sin, in unbelievers and in believers, but everyone here who has read through the Bible is aware that the scriptures require us to expose false teachers and false prophets.

Bob Jones was a false teacher and false prophet.
Ernie Gruen exposed that. Ernie Gruen is a hero in the Church, and he got a lot of criticism for daring to do it.

It's feeble (and wrong) to attempt to claim that only half a dozen elders directly associated with Jones have a right to criticise him.
Do you really think a false teacher/prophet is going to surround himself with Godly men?

If Jones was only heard in some distant local church, then that church should deal with him. But Jones is heard in the global church, in my church, by people I care about. We can't walk by on the other side and say nothing.

Bob Jones was a false teacher and false prophet...
Want evidence?
Read the Ernie Gruen report I linked to in my early post.

peace,
Simon

 

[Simon Peter]

I simply stated a retort to what you said. I gave FACTS to your assumptions, because most of what you said is NOT fact. That's it...

Most of what I said?

Please get specific.
List the things I've said that are not fact.

Thanks,
Simon

 

[JavaQueen2]

the "fact" is, GOD forgave him, WHO are YOU to dig it up....reminds me of someone,.oh yes, the accuser of the brethren...good luck explaining that to God.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Most of what I said?

Please get specific.
List the things I've said that are not fact.

Thanks,
Simon

Saying Mike Bickle changed his ministry to IHOP because of Bob Jones that is false
Saying the name of his ministry before IHOP was the KC Prophets was false, that was a group of believers within his ministry, not the ministry itself.
Calling Bob Jones a wolf in sheep's clothing without factual proof is false, because the man made a mistake doesn't make him a wolf in sheep's clothing, it makes him human

What is a wolf in sheep's clothing? It is someone that draws others away from the truth of the gospel, away from Jesus. I highly doubt Jones can be factually accused of this, your assumptions do nothing to change my mind.

the "fact" is, GOD forgave him, WHO are YOU to dig it up....reminds me of someone,.oh yes, the accuser of the brethren...good luck explaining that to God.

 

[Alive_Again]

Let us not forget that these people make a lot of money from their ministries. What's to say that money, sex, or whatever hasn't corrupted their hearts. If they allow corruption around them, covering it up, then should they run a major ministry?

What's to say? That's a BIG "if". How can we possibly apply that and know their heart condition? Isn't that opportunist? Given the number of people who investigate people like this, they would have chewed him up and spit him out if he was living "high on the hog". Don't you want to distance yourself from this type of behavior?

And for the other...

You can try and spin how the Bible exposes, judges, and criticises sin, in unbelievers and in believers, but everyone here who has read through the Bible is aware that the scriptures require us to expose false teachers and false prophets.

Just because you don't agree with them doesn't make them a false prophet. You have trumped the false prophet/false teacher thing for a long time. Doesn't that get tiring? When are you going to bring forth some good news instead of being judgmental and condemning?

Bob Jones was a false teacher and false prophet.
Ernie Gruen exposed that. Ernie Gruen is a hero in the Church, and he got a lot of criticism for daring to do it.

I ask you, if a man repented for actual sins (not something that conflicts with your doctrine), and someone else goes around publishing what God chose to forget, who is the hero in the church? Who's church is that?

It's feeble (and wrong) to attempt to claim that only half a dozen elders directly associated with Jones have a right to criticise him.

You will never be able to justify bringing up past sins of a repentant man. Your reasoning will NEVER get past that point.

Do you really think a false teacher/prophet is going to surround himself with Godly men?

Another good point. Bob surrounded himself with godly men. You just judge them "false".

If Jones was only heard in some distant local church, then that church should deal with him. But Jones is heard in the global church, in my church, by people I care about. We can't walk by on the other side and say nothing.

We judge ALL utterances and behavior (not people). We examine what they say. People say things they regret. I hope you're in that camp (I am). If we put them on the forum, we'd never come back. But fortunately, God forgives us for sins repented of. When are you going to do the same thing?

At what point do you lose the "right" to bring up people's sins?

 

[ToBeBlessed]

the "fact" is, GOD forgave him, WHO are YOU to dig it up....reminds me of someone,.oh yes, the accuser of the brethren...good luck explaining that to God.

First, Is whether God forgave this person the main issue?

The bible clearly states what is expected of our leaders by God. It is God who put in the bible what the qualifications were for elders of a church. Why do we not use the criteria that the Word gives us for who should be in leadership?

Whether someone is forgiven or unforgiven to me is not the point.

I do not believe that after these scandals that the Lord would put these men back in leadership. Jesus is the Word, the truth.

Do you think that Jesus or Paul would let them be elders of an NT church with their record? I say no.

 

[JavaQueen2]

THE MAN IS DEAD...he won't be in leadership position. Can YOU say he wasn't forgiven? HOW DO YOU KNOW? The Bible also says when God forgives it IS forgiven. HEY, I got a great idea...how about YOU expose ALL your sins to all of us here...why not? it is ok to do it to another brother! COME on..OH wait let ME find what I can on YOu and expose it. GIVE me a break.

GOOD thing it ISN"T up to you weather someone is forgiven or not. MAN..YOU didn't die on the cross for it..so yeah, glad it isn't up to you.

 

[Alive_Again]

A truthful report is not slander.

You remember when the spies came back, they told a truthful report about the giants in the land. It conflicted with what God said about the matter (even though it was true), they provided an "evil report", bringing a "slander" upon the land.

You might say that Bob came under attack and did some things in his life that were sinful and were repented of. If he really did repent, and the fruits of that certainly point to that, then to bring up his sin is to bring a "slander" upon him.

The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Yes, there is a restoration process, but it still means we have to forgive him and allow (not prevent God) from moving in his anointing.

 

[JavaQueen2]

You remember when the spies came back, they told a truthful report about the giants in the land. It conflicted with what God said about the matter (even though it was true), they provided an "evil report", bringing a "slander" upon the land.

You might say that Bob came under attack and did some things in his life that were sinful and were repented of. If he really did repent, and the fruits of that certainly point to that, then to bring up his sin is to bring a "slander" upon him.

AMEN. give me a break...this place is amazing to me...not in a good way.