Blueprint for the end

[RandyPNW]

Blueprint for the end.
Daniel 7 provided a blueprint for NT history, and Jesus confirmed it in his Olivet Discourse. The idea was that a 4th Kingdom, the Kingdom of Rome, or the "Roman Empire," would be the final great power on earth to play a role in final judgment on earth.

Jesus saw the fall of Jerusalem 1st, as a prelude to the evangelization, or warning to, the world. As Israel had been a "chosen nation," so the Roman Empire would become a kind of "chosen nation," creating many nations of faith in accordance with God's promises to Abraham.

Daniel saw the Roman Kingdom as continuing until the coming of Christ's Kingdom, the Kingdom of the "Son of Man." This would eventually become a Kingdom consisting of 10 major states. And in fact, throughout NT history, there have been a number of states populating both sections of the old Roman Empire, East and West.

The current move today towards European reunification speaks of this continuing move towards consolidating Europe under a single 10-state entity, dominating the world. The Antichrist, it is said, will have an overwhelming military superiority for 3.5 years.

But after this time period the kings from the East would, it seems, challenge this Antichristian Kingdom. And true to form, China is creating an incredibly powerful force on earth, capable of challenging a unified Europe. Even if the US and Russia, also European peoples, joined in with this European Union, China would be able to challenge it. What do you think?

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Blueprint for the end.
Daniel 7 provided a blueprint for NT history, and Jesus confirmed it in his Olivet Discourse. The idea was that a 4th Kingdom, the Kingdom of Rome, or the "Roman Empire," would be the final great power on earth to play a role in final judgment on earth.

Jesus saw the fall of Jerusalem 1st, as a prelude to the evangelization, or warning to, the world. As Israel had been a "chosen nation," so the Roman Empire would become a kind of "chosen nation," creating many nations of faith in accordance with God's promises to Abraham.

Daniel saw the Roman Kingdom as continuing until the coming of Christ's Kingdom, the Kingdom of the "Son of Man." This would eventually become a Kingdom consisting of 10 major states. And in fact, throughout NT history, there have been a number of states populating both sections of the old Roman Empire, East and West.

The current move today towards European reunification speaks of this continuing move towards consolidating Europe under a single 10-state entity, dominating the world. The Antichrist, it is said, will have an overwhelming military superiority for 3.5 years.

But after this time period the kings from the East would, it seems, challenge this Antichristian Kingdom. And true to form, China is creating an incredibly powerful force on earth, capable of challenging a unified Europe. Even if the US and Russia, also European peoples, joined in with this European Union, China would be able to challenge it. What do you think?

Hi while many taught correctly that 10 kings would appear and indeed it is the days of the feet of iron and clay with the 10 toes and all and it will be a global empire it was speculation in the 80's and 90's that the unified Europe would dominate while the US would falter and then the 10 would take over.
This is not how real time events are tracking. The whole world including the US and Europe is on the verge of a total economic collapse that would indeed bring in Rev 6 seal judgment type of conditions globally. The WE (world economic forum ) is working in real time on the great reset project and all the western democracies are signed up for it. The collapse of the old world is being arranged now and the totalitarian super state of NWO has already built the infrastructure for global government. The 10 kings give their allegiance to the beast who comes to have dominion over every tribe tongue kindred and nation. So as it is developing the EU is not rising to ascend but will be one of the 10 kings and each region will have a king with the globe parceled into 10 regions. This matches the strategies of no borders, free trade, massive immigration no countries, one currency and all the rest. Europe is not going to take over but like all the rest is being taken over by the beast system that is being put in place now.

 

[keras]

The current move today towards European reunification speaks of this continuing move towards consolidating Europe under a single 10-state entity, dominating the world.

C'mon; the EU 10 nation thing was the 70's idea, soon shot down by more than 10 joining. They never became a cohesive group, with one strong leader and are now more divided that ever,
Daniel 7:23 and Revelation 13:1-8 prove the worldwide scope of the rule of the beast' the Anti-Christ.

What do you think?

There will be some troop movements, etc; during the 42 month period of the AC's power. but it ends when they all gather at Armageddon.

What astounds me is the seeming inability of most Christians to know what the next prophesied event will be. Jesus warned us: Matthew 24:37-41 He will 'come' as the Son of man and His fiery wrath will change the world.
Some years later; He will Return, visible, in glory; as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

 

[tansy]

Hi while many taught correctly that 10 kings would appear and indeed it is the days of the feet of iron and clay with the 10 toes and all and it will be a global empire it was speculation in the 80's and 90's that the unified Europe would dominate while the US would falter and then the 10 would take over.
This is not how real time events are tracking. The whole world including the US and Europe is on the verge of a total economic collapse that would indeed bring in Rev 6 seal judgment type of conditions globally. The WE (world economic forum ) is working in real time on the great reset project and all the western democracies are signed up for it. The collapse of the old world is being arranged now and the totalitarian super state of NWO has already built the infrastructure for global government. The 10 kings give their allegiance to the beast who comes to have dominion over every tribe tongue kindred and nation. So as it is developing the EU is not rising to ascend but will be one of the 10 kings and each region will have a king with the globe parceled into 10 regions. This matches the strategies of no borders, free trade, massive immigration no countries, one currency and all the rest. Europe is not going to take over but like all the rest is being taken over by the beast system that is being put in place now.

Yes, this seems a more likely scenario. Imo I think the Eu may get smaller..perhaps more countries will leave it. I can't be convinced that the EU would be the 10 nation ruler.

 

[Douggg]

. And true to form, China is creating an incredibly powerful force on earth, capable of challenging a unified Europe. Even if the US and Russia, also European peoples, joined in with this European Union, China would be able to challenge it. What do you think?

 

[RandyPNW]

View attachment 307074

Could you explain a little more what US and Canada allies refers to? Is this the Beast empire for you?

 

[Douggg]

'mon; the EU 10 nation thing was the 70's idea, soon shot down by more than 10 joining. They never became a cohesive group, with one strong leader and are now more divided that ever,

The EU in its final form will be the kingdom of the beast. It's ten kings, not ten kingdoms (nations), in Daniel 7, of the fourth kingdom.

It is just a matter of developing.

 

[RandyPNW]

C'mon; the EU 10 nation thing was the 70's idea, soon shot down by more than 10 joining. They never became a cohesive group, with one strong leader and are now more divided that ever,
Daniel 7:23 and Revelation 13:1-8 prove the worldwide scope of the rule of the beast' the Anti-Christ.

There will be some troop movements, etc; during the 42 month period of the AC's power. but it ends when they all gather at Armageddon.

What astounds me is the seeming inability of most Christians to know what the next prophesied event will be. Jesus warned us: Matthew 24:37-41 He will 'come' as the Son of man and His fiery wrath will change the world.
Some years later; He will Return, visible, in glory; as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

I don't know that the 6th Seal judgment was the centerpiece of the Book of Revelation? Not convinced one way or the other. But the 10 horned Beast does figure prominently, both in Daniel's prophecy (ch. 7) and in the Book of Revelation (ch. 13).

I read Hal Lindsey's book when it came out, and found it intriguing. But I agree that the Common Market prophecy did not work out, although I do think its credible that it began the process towards the European Union.

The EU is a reality, brother--not a failed project. But I'm not a Dispensationalist at any rate, nor a Lindsey follower. Belief in the Antichrist is as old as the Church, however. So I'm not sure why you berate the idea of things that are clearly written in the books of Daniel and Revelation?

 

[RandyPNW]

The EU in its final form will be the kingdom of the beast. It's ten kings, not ten kingdoms (nations), in Daniel 7, of the fourth kingdom.

It is just a matter of developing.

"Kings" can be viewed as "Kingdoms," as well. It really depends on the context in which the word is used. It also depends on your presuppositions.

I do see "kings" as a reference to "kingdoms" or "states." That's precisely how the Roman Imperial Tradition has been perpetuated in history, through a number of different states bearing the imperial tradition.

 

[Douggg]

Could you explain a little more what US and Canada allies refers to? Is this the Beast empire for you?

The battles in Daniel 11:40-45 are after the person has become the beast in Daniel 11:36 as the willful king claiming
to be God.

The rapture takes place before then, removing Christians from around the world, including the U.S., Canada, and the EU. With Christians gone, the U.S. and Canada will not hesitate in aligning themselves with the EU to exert the dominance of the West over the rest of the world.

Near the end of the 7 years, with the judgments of the trumpets and vials taking a toll on the essentials of life, food, water, and the lifeblood of nations - oil - the west having control of the middle east oil, will be directing it to the western nations.

That will force the other nations of the world to attack the beast to free up the stranglehold the beast, leader of the west, will have on the oil.

 

[RandyPNW]

Hi while many taught correctly that 10 kings would appear and indeed it is the days of the feet of iron and clay with the 10 toes and all and it will be a global empire it was speculation in the 80's and 90's that the unified Europe would dominate while the US would falter and then the 10 would take over.
This is not how real time events are tracking. The whole world including the US and Europe is on the verge of a total economic collapse that would indeed bring in Rev 6 seal judgment type of conditions globally. The WE (world economic forum ) is working in real time on the great reset project and all the western democracies are signed up for it. The collapse of the old world is being arranged now and the totalitarian super state of NWO has already built the infrastructure for global government. The 10 kings give their allegiance to the beast who comes to have dominion over every tribe tongue kindred and nation. So as it is developing the EU is not rising to ascend but will be one of the 10 kings and each region will have a king with the globe parceled into 10 regions. This matches the strategies of no borders, free trade, massive immigration no countries, one currency and all the rest. Europe is not going to take over but like all the rest is being taken over by the beast system that is being put in place now.

Although I respect that point of view, I see the Roman Tradition specifically as the home base for the Beast Empire. And that includes European Civilization only.

Furthermore, it appears that other great powers have to stand aside, out of fear of the great power of this Beast Empire.

Rev 13.3 The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

It therefore sounds to me as if the Beast Empire has worshipers from across the world that are not necessarily part of this Empire. They simply admire it, and trade with it, and are diplomatic towards it, even being impressed with its humanistic outlook.

But at Armageddon, kings from the East, likely China and perhaps India, will become emboldened to challenge the Beast Empire, indicating that "world worship" will only last 1260 days. This is just my thought, and I do respects yours. Thank you.

 

[Douggg]

"Kings" can be viewed as "Kingdoms," as well. It really depends on the context in which the word is used. It also depends on your presuppositions.

I do see "kings" as a reference to "kingdoms" or "states." That's precisely how the Roman Imperial Tradition has been perpetuated in history, through a number of different states bearing the imperial tradition.

In context, it is one kingdom, featuring ten kings of that one kingdom.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Same one kingdom of Revelation 17:

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

The person will become dictator of the EU.

 

[Kenneth Heck]

It is a common error in these days to regard Rome as the fourth beast or fourth kingdom. Prophetic dreams in the bible always deal with the future, not the past. The first beast isn't Babylon- it is Persia. Babylon has never been described as a beast in the scriptures, rather as a female. The second is Greco-Rome. The third is Islam, and the fourth hasn't arrived yet, but will after the next world War. Look at my fuller exposition at https://www.theheckcollection.com/heck-files

 

[RandyPNW]

It is a common error in these days to regard Rome as the fourth beast or fourth kingdom. Prophetic dreams in the bible always deal with the future, not the past. The first beast isn't Babylon- it is Persia. Babylon has never been described as a beast in the scriptures, rather as a female. The second is Greco-Rome. The third is Islam, and the fourth hasn't arrived yet, but will after the next world War. Look at my fuller exposition at https://www.theheckcollection.com/heck-files

I just got finished arguing this point with someone for a number of months. The end result is that both of us still hold to our own views.

It is entirely debatable whether the language supports use of Babylon as part of the set of "future" kings. As the kingdom existing at the time of Daniel, it only stands to reason that Babylon would be included in this set of "future" kings.

I can't see that Daniel, living in the time of Babyblon, would assign to Persia the "head of gold." Daniel specifically assigned that role to Nebuchadnezzar. Dan 2.37-38.

I can't see that he would assign to Persia the image of one whose mind was taken from him until he returned to being a "man." That had to be Nebuchadnezzar, as the book of Daniel itself explains.

But you're certainly entitled to your opinion. There are scholars on both sides. But I would think the vast number of scholars favor Babylon being the 1st in the set of 4 kingdoms.

 

[Kenneth Heck]

The head of gold of the great image is, of course, Babylon. The chest of silver is Persia. The great image refers to all the gentile powers which have, and will, dominate the land of Israel until the times of the gentiles are over. The four beasts are a separate vision.

Daniel saw first beast of the four arising out of the sea, the lion, as a future event, not a description of the past or present. These beasts refer to future Jewish persecution and oppression by the gentile powers, both within the land of Israel and outside of it. The first recorded persecution of the Jews occurred within the Persian empire by Haman, who sought to exterminate them, as recounted in the book of Esther. This is why the first beast, the lion, represents Persia, not Babylon.

There is no beast associated with the Babylonian Empire, since the head is the non-bestial part of the human body. The head of any animal is its least bestial, most human part. Babylon is never described as a beast in scripture, rather as the “lady of kingdoms” (Isa 47:5), and “a golden cup in the LORD’S hands” (Jer 51:7). The Jews were carried away to Babylon as a punishment for their grievous sins; they were not unjustly oppressed or persecuted in Babylon. They actually tended to flourish there, perhaps initially due to the high positions Nebuchadnezzar granted Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego within the government.

 

[RandyPNW]

The head of gold of the great image is, of course, Babylon. The chest of silver is Persia. The great image refers to all the gentile powers which have, and will, dominate the land of Israel until the times of the gentiles are over. The four beasts are a separate vision.

Daniel saw first beast of the four arising out of the sea, the lion, as a future event, not a description of the past or present. These beasts refer to future Jewish persecution and oppression by the gentile powers, both within the land of Israel and outside of it. The first recorded persecution of the Jews occurred within the Persian empire by Haman, who sought to exterminate them, as recounted in the book of Esther. This is why the first beast, the lion, represents Persia, not Babylon.

There is no beast associated with the Babylonian Empire, since the head is the non-bestial part of the human body. The head of any animal is its least bestial, most human part. Babylon is never described as a beast in scripture, rather as the “lady of kingdoms” (Isa 47:5), and “a golden cup in the LORD’S hands” (Jer 51:7). The Jews were carried away to Babylon as a punishment for their grievous sins; they were not unjustly oppressed or persecuted in Babylon. They actually tended to flourish there, perhaps initially due to the high positions Nebuchadnezzar granted Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego within the government.

Your arguments are quite a reach! You say the head of a body is not part of the whole body? Absurd! You say that Jewish persecution did not exist under Babylon? Absurd! Daniel's friends were thrown into an oven! At best, these are extremely weak arguments, and I would never make my belief based on such weak arguments.

On the other hand, we do read in Dan 7 that these are *future kings.*

Dan 7.17 ‘The four great beasts are four kings that will rise from the earth.'

But the statement does not necessarily imply that all 4 beasts were purely future. This is a vision, looking from God's eternal viewpoint, that 4 kings would arise to fulfill a particular purpose. In other words, it is seen as if predetermined before any of them had arisen yet. They were a predetermine set that in the future would be seen as a single set of kingdoms.

The argument can legitimately be made that these 4 kingdoms parallel Nebuchadnezzar's dream--only now as Daniel's dream. Two different accounts would seem to confirm the meaning. The account of Nebuchadnezzar's madness seems to correlate with the 1st beast with eagle's wings that were torn off and who was made to stand like a man.

Furthermore, it would be very likely that God would confirm Babylon as the 1st beast since that was the empire in the time of Daniel, who would not likely miss representing his own kingdom. To skip Babylon, and place Persia as 1st beast, would not only seem injudicious, but it had already been given first place in Nebuchadnezzar's dream.

No, I think the two dreams are being placed, in a sense, side to side, for purposes of confirmation and comparison. The vision is, in a way, timeless, presenting the set as a whole in the future, even though the 1st kingdom was already in a state of decline in the time of Daniel's dream. It was a confirmation of what had been seen earlier, when the kingdom still was rising.

Although I understand your argument, please recognize that biblical language can be quite flexible, in some ways, particularly in the apocalyptic genre. Much that we are given in the book of Revelation are what I believe to be prolepses, ie visions of the future as if they are happening in the presence of John, who is seeing them purely as visions. The things he sees are not really happening yet, and yet he portrays them as if they are.

In the same way, this set of future kingdoms is portrayed as if they are future, when at least one of them already exists. Language is funny that way, and this is how I see it on this occasion.

 

[Kenneth Heck]

Where we disagree is clear, so no need for further explanations. As primarily a literalist, when the scripture says "future kings" I believe that is exactly what it means. Since Belshazzar was the last king of Babylon when Daniel's dream of the four beasts occurred, the future king could not have been Babylonian. But, as you say, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.