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Blotted out???

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by rkbo, Jan 5, 2002.

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  1. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
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    1Cr 3:15 -17 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved ; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    In other words God will let you be destroyed (your physical being, by satan) before you could lose your salvation.


    What does that say other then the comment I put below it. < M O G said:

    The problem M O G is that these verses do 'not' say what you say that they say. In other words -- your interpretation of these verses is wrong !

    These verses are telling us that we are the "temple" (knowledge) of God, and the Spirit of God dwelleth in you (figurativly)(revelation pertaining to "knowledge" of God). That if any man defile the temple (knowledge) of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple (knowledge) of God is holy, which temple (knowledge) ye are"

    That is what these verses are saying !

    That he will destroy "him" who defiles the knowledge of God, which ye are, because the Spirit of God dwells in you.

    These verses are not talking about "you" the Christian being destroyed ! They are talking about "him" - "any man" - who defiles the knowledge of God, will God destroy !

    Then , from your own private interpretation of these verses, this is what "you" told me ! ! > "You have a problem interpreting scripture! The verses you give are twisted out of context!"

    I do not observe any days, and months, and times, and years ! Because they are "weak and beggarly elements" > Galatians 4:9 - which brings one back into bondage !

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  2. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    M O G wrote >

    #1 - Book of life - also called the "book of the living" in Psalms 69:28

    #2 - "Lamb's book of life" -- also called the "book of life of the Lamb"


    Huh, I think EVERYONE'S knows that to be true, It is right there in the Bible hervey! But you have made this a loss of salvation issue.


    M.O.G.

    Hey M. O. G.

    What would you call it , if someone has their name "blotted" out of the "book of life" ? ?

    Love IN Christ - HErvey
     
  3. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    To be "blotted" out of the "book of life", means that your name is not there, and one would end up in the "Lake of Fire" because their name is not in the "book of life" any more, because God "blotted" it out.

    If you were chosen from "before" the foundation of the world, then you name is in the "Lamb's book of life". And because of this, you could have your name blotted out by God, because you desire to do the law, instead of living by grace. Then you still would have salvation, but not the promised salvation by grace.

    If one desires to walk in the flesh, and to continue to walk in the flesh. Then one can loose their whole salvation, if God blots out their name from the "book of life".


    Jim:

    I think I see what you mean. You seem to me to be saying that all humans (whether Christian or non-Christian) are in a book of life, whereas all Christians are also in a Lamb’s book of life. Those Christians that choose law over grace get blotted out of the Lamb’s book of life but not out of the book of life, and they get demoted from the first resurrection to the second resurrection; and those humans (whether Christian or non-Christian) who choose to revel in the flesh rather than have anything to do with God at all (even legalistically through the law) get blotted out of the book of life and cast into the lake of fire. Thus, the choice isn’t life versus death but superior life versus inferior life versus death (three choices instead of two).

    If this is what you’re saying, then I understand the logic of what you’re saying, but I don’t think that it’s scriptural. We can read all kinds of stuff into the Bible that isn’t really there by arbitrarily choosing to give Biblical words or phrases multiple meanings. The mere fact that an interpretation follows a certain logic doesn’t mean very much, since all interpretations, no matter how far they may deviate from the literal text of the Bible, make perfect sense within the contexts of their own assumptions. Therefore, in my opinion, the question we should ask ourselves isn’t whether we CAN interpret the Bible a certain way but whether we SHOULD interpret it that way. If the literal text of a passage or of a set of passages regarding the same subject neither states nor requires an interpretation that we’re considering, then, in my opinion, we have no legitimate reason for adopting that interpretation, in which case we should simply allow the literal expression of the text to stand.

    Having examined the passages that contain the phrase “book of life,” I see nothing in the literal language of these passages that either states or requires that there be more than one book of life. I therefore see no reason to conclude that there are two.


    Hervey (previous post):

    The theif on the cross was "not" a Christian who was chosen from before the foundation of the world. He himself choose salvation through Christ while he was on his own cross with Christ. Jesus Christ promised him "paradise", also called the New Earth, also called the city of God, called the New Jerusalem.


    Hervey (in response to my post):

    The reason people don't get the full understanding of what I say, or what is written within the Word of God, is because they do not "see" that there are "two" books of life. … If you were chosen from "before" the foundation of the world, then you name is in the "Lamb's book of life". … The theif on the cross had his name written in the "book of life" from the foundation of the Word.


    Jim:

    If what you’ve said here were scripturally correct, then one’s name wouldn’t have to be written in the Lamb’s book of life in order to have access to the New Jerusalem; one’s name would only have to be written in the book of life. However, Revelation 21:27 says this:

    It appears to me from this passage that only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life will have access to the New Jerusalem.

    Please reexamine the following passages:

    If there were two distinct books of life (a Christian or Lamb’s book of life and a generic book of life), wouldn’t Paul in Philippians 4:3 and Christ in Revelation 3:5 say “Lamb’s book of life” rather than merely say “book of life” in these two passages regarding Christians?

    In Revelation 21:27, being excluded from “the Lamb’s book of life” excludes a person from the New Jerusalem. In Revelation 22:19, being excluded from “the book of life” excludes a person from the New Jerusalem. In my opinion, the logical conclusion from this is that the phrase “the Lamb’s book of life” and the phrase “the book of life” refer to the same book.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  4. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    When dealing with the two books of life from within the Word of God, one has to consider a couple of things.

    #1 - To whom is it written to

    #2 - We are dealing with a translation -- which has added or subtracted information from the original.

    You asked > " If there were two distinct books of life (a Christian or Lamb’s book of life and a generic book of life), wouldn’t Paul in Philippians 4:3 and Christ in Revelation 3:5 say “Lamb’s book of life” rather than merely say “book of life” in these two passages regarding Christians? "

    The book of Philippians is written "unto the Church" - "the body of Christ", and thus is speaking about the "Lamb's book of life" #1 & #2 above.

    Rev. 3:5 is written unto the seven churches in Asia, which has "nothing" to do with the Church - the body of Christ ! #1 above - "to whom is it written to"


    Jim said >

    "If what you’ve said here were scripturally correct, then one’s name wouldn’t have to be written in the Lamb’s book of life in order to have access to the New Jerusalem; one’s name would only have to be written in the book of life. However, Revelation 21:27 says this:


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it [the New Jerusalem] any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    It appears to me from this passage that only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life will have access to the New Jerusalem."

    Hervey says in reply :

    Jim, let me show you how you just "changed" what that verse just said. You said - "access" to the New Jerusalem"

    Now be honest within your mind here Jim. Does it say "access" or "enter into" ?

    Very similar - right ? But not exactly the same - right ?

    By your insight as to what your eyes see, you are claiming that only Christians can go into the New Jerusalem by their "access" into the New Jerusalem - right ?

    But is that what this verse is saying ?

    No - that is not what this verse is saying. It might appear as such, but it is not saying that at all, because that would give the wrong impression of what it is really saying.

    "Access" could mean by its impression, as those are the only one's allowed inside. But this is not the case in this usage of words that are within this verse to - "enter into".

    To - "enter into" means that one can "exit out of" also. And in this case , the New Jerusalem has twelve gates by which one can enter and exit. Or one could say "go out of" or, as the scripture says - "enter into".

    All those whoes names "remain" in the "book of life" are going to see the New Jerusalem come down out of heaven and encompass them , by the reasoning that the New Jerusalem will come upon them, and they will become a part of being on the inside of the New Jerusalem because the New Jerusalem came down upon them - Rev.21:10 & verse 24 - "walk in the light" and the "Kings" of the New earth, do bring their glory and honour "into" it. Christians are made priests and kings. Those whoes names were still in the "book of life" can not "enter into" , nor exit out of, but those whoes names are in the "Lamb's book of life" can "enter into" and "exit out of" through one of the twelve gates. There is a purpose for this, but the word is not explicite about this purpose at this time (for we know in part).

    To help understand to some degree, we know that the New Jerusalem is also called the New Earth. The same with us humans - all mankind, we never "entered into" this earth, but we do know that the Devil did, as he came down from heaven , because he was cast down. We also know that "angels" can "enter into" this present earth and leave also, as messangers from God. This is the closest explanation I have at this time for the "entering into" and the ability to "exit out of" the New Earth , also called the New Jerusalem.

    Love IN Christ - HErvey
     
  5. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    They [those whose names are written in the generic book of life] can not "enter into" , nor exit out of, but those whoes names are in the "Lamb's book of life" can "enter into" and "exit out of" through one of the twelve gates. There is a purpose for this, but the word is not explicite about this purpose at this time (for we know in part). To help understand to some degree, we know that the New Jerusalem is also called the New Earth.


    The Bible:

    Jim:

    As I said before, all interpretations make perfect sense within the context of their own assumptions. In my opinion, the interpretation you’re suggesting here forces on the above passages assumptions for which there is no basis in scripture.

    John says that he sees a new heaven and earth, as the former heaven and earth will have passed away. In this new earth, there will be no more sea. From the vantage of a mountain of this new earth, John is shown a city, the New Jerusalem, descending from heaven to the new earth. Thus, in my opinion, what John describes here is not consistent with the New Jerusalem being the new earth. John says that it is a city, and the angel showing him these things says that it is the Lamb’s wife.

    I see no indication that there will be two classifications of saved people: (1) those who remain in the city, and (2) those who enter and leave the city. I don’t see anything said about leaving the city. The only two classifications of people I see described in Revelation 21 and 22 are those who are in the city (the “sons of God,” who “inherit all things”) and those who are outside the city (the participants in “the second death”).

    Paul says that once the Rapture has occurred, Christians will forever be with Christ. The “Spirit” says to the seven churches that those Christians who overcome will be a pillar in the Temple of God, and that they will NOT go out. In my opinion, this is consistent with Paul’s statement that the resurrected saints of Christ will forever be with Christ, because John says that God and the Lamb will be the Temple in the New Jerusalem, and Their throne will be there, and Their servants will serve them there, and God, the Lamb and Their servants will reign forever in New Jerusalem, which will be located on the new earth. If resurrected Christians will forever be with Christ, and if Christ will be located in the New Jerusalem, then it seems to me that the resurrected Christians will not be leaving the New Jerusalem. As the “Spirit” says to the churches, “… he shall no more go out.”

    I assume that what you were suggesting by your interpretation, in which the New Jerusalem is thought to be the new earth, from which an inferior class of saved people will not be free to exit, but from which a superior class of saved people will be free to exit, is that the superior class of saved people will live in heaven and will visit the earth from time to time, as angels have. However, as far as I can tell, according to Revelation 21-22, the Lord and His saints will no longer be in heaven; they will be in the New Jerusalem, which will be on the new earth.

    In my opinion, Revelation 21-22 is very clear in its classification of people. There will be two classifications: (1) those who have the right to the tree of life and the right to enter the city, and (2) those who don't have the right to enter the city, who participate in the second death. Life is inside the city, whereas death is outside the city. God and the Lamb are inside the city with Their servants, whereas the other classification of people are outside the city. The people of God are with God and the Lamb in the city, where there is light; God and the Lamb are the light of the city. Outside of the city, in the second death, there is no such light. Perhaps this is what is meant in the Gospels by "outer darkness."


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  6. swlsal

    swlsal New Member

    13
    +0
    There are no different kinds of salvation. The New Earth is where the faithful enjoy eternity in happiness. And anyone from Adam on down who fulfills the requirements of Luke 10:25-37 will have it. This is stated by the Lord Himself: "Love God and love your neighbor.....Do this and you shall live" (have eternal life- this was in answer to the question- what must I do to inherit eternal life?)
    Then the Lord gives an illustration of "Love thy neighbor" in the parable of the Good Samaritan.
    There is no ritual here. Salvation achieved by a LIFESTYLE, not by a ritual or raising one's hand at a rally. "By their fruits you shall know them." And this is also how God knows them.
    Faith is not an invisible thing. There must by DEEDS shown. When Paul talked about "faith without works," he was talking to his CONTEMPORARIES 2 thousand years ago. In that scene the people (both Jews and Gentiles) thought they could gain the favor of God with offerings brought to temples and rituals performed there.
    It was THESE RITUALS that Paul was referring to when he said, "not by works."
     
  7. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    There will be a #1 - New Heaven and #2 - a New Earth

    The New Jerusalem comes down out of -- Heaven ( which Heaven ? -- The old heaven has passed away ! --- She comes down from the New Heaven - Rev. 21:1 & 2) - from God - having the glory of God, and her - Rev. 21:10 & 11.

    She - the New Jerusalem is the "glory of God", and she is the wife of the Lamb. And "she" is the New Earth ! This holy city called the New Jerusalem is not "on" the New Earth, this holy city of God "is" the New Earth, which came down out of heaven.

    This New Earth, is "not" the New Heaven !

    Those "nations" of them which are "saved" can "walk" in the light of the New Earth -- Rev. 21:24

    Kings bring their glory and honour "into it". -- Rev. 21:24 - Which means that they are on the outside , and can enter - "into it". One "must" be on the outside , before one can enter into it ! This is sound logic ! If all there was on the outside was the unbelieving and whoremongers and idolater etc. Then why would the Word of God use the words "enter into it" in two verses pertaining to two different understandings of the group whoes names are written in the "Lamb's book of life" ? Once in verse 24 and again in verse 27.

    The city had no need for a sun or a moon, because the Lamb is the light thereof -- Verse 23. < The new city called the New Jerusalem is "not" the New Heaven. So where is the New Heaven ? ----- The answer is --- "Outside" of the New Earth, is the New Heaven.

    No one is "inferior" to the other !

    Just like a man and a woman biblically, the man is the head of the wife, and that does not make the woman inferior to the man.

    Each has a purpose designated by God, and one who can "enter into" the New Jerusalem is just doing the responsibility that a faithful called out and chosen one of God can do !

    As a man I can not give birth, and only a woman can, but that does not make me as a man inferior to a woman. Each just has their designed purpose.

    Christians were designed by God to be in 'heaven', and they also can come to the earth, as they will with Christ upon this earth in the last days. Christians also will be able to "enter into" the New Earth through one of the twelve gates. Those who are inside from the beginning of the New Earth, can "not" go out - Rev. 3:12 , Just like we can not leave this earth "unless" one is "chosen" from before the foundation of the world. "Only" Christians "leave" this earth - I Thess. 4:13 - 17. "Only" Christians can leave and return to this earth. The same is with the New Earth , called the New Jerusalem. Those whoes names are in the "Lamb's book of life" can "enter into it" - Rev. 21:27 . And we know that the "gates" are not shut - Rev. 21:25.

    Verse 26 - "they" --- They who ? -- Answer - priests and Kings , of which God made Christians, who "are" his sons.

    I guess I will end here, as some will think I am just trying to out talk you :)

    Love IN Christ - HErvey
     
  8. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    There will be a #1 - New Heaven and #2 - a New Earth. The New Jerusalem comes down out of -- Heaven ( which Heaven ? -- The old heaven has passed away ! --- She comes down from the New Heaven - Rev. 21:1 & 2) - from God - having the glory of God, and her - Rev. 21:10 & 11. She - the New Jerusalem is the "glory of God", and she is the wife of the Lamb.


    Jim:

    Yes, there will be a new heaven and a new earth. Yes, the New Jerusalem will descend from God out of the new heaven to the new earth. Yes, this city, New Jerusalem, is the Lamb’s wife. John was standing with the angel on a mountain of the new earth watching the Lamb’s wife, the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descend from the new heaven to the new earth (21:10). That is what Revelation 21 says. I don’t see the point you’re trying to make here.


    Hervey:

    Then why would the Word of God use the words "enter into it" in two verses pertaining to two different understandings of the group whoes names are written in the "Lamb's book of life" ? Once in verse 24 and again in verse 27.



    Jim:

    What do you mean by “two different understandings?” The one understanding that I gather from verses 21:24 and 21:27 is that the kings of the earth in verse 21:24 are written in the Lamb’s book of life as stated in verse 21:27.


    Hervey:

    The new city called the New Jerusalem is "not" the New Heaven. So where is the New Heaven ? ----- The answer is --- "Outside" of the New Earth, is the New Heaven


    Jim:

    In my opinion, the assumption that the New Jerusalem is the new earth has no scriptural basis. Also, in my opinion, the statement that the new heaven is “outside” the New Jerusalem is not consistent with verse 22:15, which states that those who participate in the second death are “without” the city.


    Hervey:

    Christians were designed by God to be in 'heaven', and they also can come to the earth, as they will with Christ upon this earth in the last days.


    Jim:

    John 14:3 says, “… I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says, “… and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” Revelation 3:12 says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out …” Revelation 21:22 says, “And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.” Revelation 22:3 says, “… the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.” In my opinion, these passages indicate that Christians are not designed to be in heaven; they are designed to be with Christ wherever He may be. According to Revelation 21-22, Christ will be in the New Jerusalem with His servants. In contrast, verse 22:15 states that those who will participate in the second death will be “without” the city. It appears to me from Revelation 21:2-3, 21:10 and 22:3 that God’s tabernacle and throne will no longer be in heaven; they will be in the New Jerusalem, which will be on the new earth.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  9. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    It never was my intention to start a new topic within another topic. This topic is about being "blotted out" of the book of life, and you and myself are now stuck on the topic of the New Earth and the New Heaven.

    If you don't mind, I am going to take the liberty to cut and paste your last post, and bring it to a new subject title called New Heaven and New Earth.

    See you there.

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  10. swlsal

    swlsal New Member

    13
    +0
    I agree with Hervey that one can be blotted out of the Book of Life. This book is akin to the Olive Tree of Rom. 11.
    This tree represents salvation. The saved ones are the branches of the tree. The root that supports the tree is Christ. Israel is (are) the "natural" branches. This is because God created that nation as His own and it has a special relationship to Him. Gentiles believers are "grafted in."
    It states plainly that branches can be "broken off" (cut off"). They can be grafted in again. This would happen through the repentence of the person.
    The person is written into the Book of Life at HIS DEATH, after he has proved himself by his lifestyle, to have been a true believer and not a hypocrite making a false claim.
    "By their fruits you shall know them." Raising one's hand at a rally does not lock one into salvation.
     
  11. Nick_Loves_Abba

    Nick_Loves_Abba Bulls On Parade

    +45
    Christian
    Wow, good discussion!

    I've gotten a little confused, and scared. Is it easy for someone's name to be blotted out? What casues it? Is it perpetual sin? Or not believing?

    Can a believer be blotted out if he continueously "stumbles" in his Christian walk?
     
  12. rkbo

    rkbo Member

    272
    +0
    Nick You can not be blotted out if you are truly born again. You can not be blotted out or separated from the love of Jesus.
    Rom 8:35-39
    35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
    36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
    37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
    38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    (KJV)
     
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