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Blotted out???

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by rkbo, Jan 5, 2002.

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  1. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    This is related to the "can we loose our salvation" thread but I thought it is enough different to start a new thread. That one was getting too long anyway.

    I love these deeper discussions they make me dig deep and in doing so I find even deeper stuff. I love it.

    Well the question has been asked about being blotted out of the book of life and it is a good one. I believe Exod . 32:33 was quoted but we need to go back to verse 31 to get a better idea.
    Exod 32:31-33
    31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
    32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
    33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
    (KJV)

    Is Moses saying he wanted to be blotted out of the book of life and go to hell if God did not forgive their sins? What book is Moses and God talking about? Well here is the same scene as looked at from
    Deut 9:14
    14 Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.
    (KJV)
    It seems he is talking about death. The term ‘under heaven' is always talking about this world. Just look at Ecclesiastes. The book is probably the register of the Jews and geneologies. I will bow to Jamison Fausset and Brown on this one.
    Exodus 32:30-33

    Verse 32. [Blot me out of thy book which thou hast written.] In the public registers, all that were born of a particular tribe were entered in the list of their respective families under that tribe. This was the Israelite Domesday book, or genealogical record; and when any one died his name might be considered as blotted out of this list.
    (from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary)


    Is the unrighteous ever written in "the book of life"
    Now this verse sheds a little light on that.
    Ps 69:27-28
    27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
    28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
    (KJV)


    God has a book of the living. If you are alive or have been alive you are in this book. These people the Psalmist is talking about were in the book with the righteous but were never righteous. I will end with this thought. If you die in your sins you are blotted out of the Book of life. You don't get blotted out, written in, blotted out again, etc.

    Please tell me what you think of these verses. Thank you.
     
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  2. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    no "under heavon" does not neccesarilly mean earth.
    yes moses is saying that.

    to blot a name out doesnt mean to DIE IN THE FLESH because " YOU, YOU ARE A SPIRIT LIVING IN A BODY" do not die.
    your body will, but will live on in heavon or in hell.
    so really there wouldnt be any blotting out if thats what the book was.

    it says GOD WROTE THIS BOOK, not some tribe book that any man wrote.

    psalms 69.27-28
    it doesnt mean there are unrightouse people in this book.
    in the old testiment no one had come unto "his rightouseness" not one. the law made no one clean and justified no one.
    moses was in the book, yet he wasnt really rightouse while still under the law. though his name was in the book and he "didnt go to hell, but to paradise". his name was there and he was waiting on the rightouseness of god to come in jesus' death.
    it doenst mean everyones name is in that book.
    simply because they were in the book yet not in gods rightouseness doesnt mean everyone was in it becuase no one had gods rightousness yet.

    let them be blotted out, and do not let them be written are talking about the same thing.


     
  3. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    Well, for starters, I am seeing if this post gets posted on the new site.

    The first thing I would like to share, is that there are "two" books of life.

    The book of life

    And - the lambs book of life

    God can blot out their names in these books of life.

    I am not going to type too much at this time. I want to see if this gets posted without any problems on the new site

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  4. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    Everyone:

    If your name can be blotted out of either of the two books of life, then your name will not appear there anymore ! So if your name is not in the book of life --- > this is what happens >>

    In Rev. 20:15 - "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the Lake of Fire ( which is also called the "second death" ) "

    So, can you loose your salvation ? YES, if your name has been "blotted out" by God !

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  5. Droobie

    Droobie Rebmem Raluger

    +64
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    Married
    AU-Liberals
    Hmmm... correct me if I'm wrong, but is this mentioning of being 'blotted out' only in the OT? If so, then has Jesus not made a new covenant with us in the NT?

    I've always thought that warnings about those who are not in the book of life are those people who think they are saved and say they are saved but in reality are deluding themsleves.

    Matthew 7:22-23
    "Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!""
     
  6. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    God is no respector of persons, so what he has done to some he also will do to others.

    God also is a God that changes not, so this is greater evidence that God can and will blot out names in the book of life,and if one's name is not found there, then to the lake of fire that one goes.


    We have been brought into a new covenant with God through Christ, but that does not change God, nor does it change the reasoning behind why he would or would not take someone's name out to the book of life.

    Love IN Christ - HErvey
     
  7. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    I think it should be noted that Ex:32 does not say this is the Book of Life. If it doesn't say it, then it is a leap to make it say it. You can not stand on this verse and make a strong point about being blotted out of the Book of Life. It is more likely talking about this.
    Ezek 13:9
    9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
    (KJV)



    As for Psalms 69, we see the context of the verse telling us that the Psalmist is making a request. He is asking God to blot them out of the Book of Life and they not be written with the righteous.
    So we assume that the psalmist has an understanding that they are in the Book and can be blotted out. This also is a leap to say that all in "this " book are saved and can loose their salvation. It is a leap to say they at one time they were righteous and now aren't so they get blotted out. This does not strenghthen the argument against the assurance of the saints.

    A stonger verse about being blotted it out is
    Rev 3:5
    5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
    (KJV)

    All true Christians do indeed overcome. Jesus gives us the strenghth and ability to overcome. We are his workmanship and he is able to keep us saved and make us overcomers. He is after all the "author and finisher" of our faith. The wolves in sheeps clothing, the ones that look like but are not christians are they that do not overcome. The ones that are not truly born again are still in the book of life and are not blotted out till they die. Sorry I don't have time to give scripture right now but I will see if I can get to it latter......
     
  8. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    Why is there any mention of blotting out your name from the book of life in Rev. 3:5, if those who are saved , believe that your name can not be blotted out of the book of life, when this verse is extrememly clear that it can ?

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  9. chuck

    chuck New Member

    67
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    First off does everyone agree that anyone written in the book of life is saved?

    Second is when is a name written in that book?

    Third is the answer you give to questions 1 & 2 will deterimine your answer to Rev. 3:5

    :) God Bless
    Chuck
     
  10. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    Hervey this may help in understanding they way I think. Or it may not, but it's worth looking at.
    Rev 20:12-15
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    (KJV)

    We see Books (plural) The "dead" were judged according to their works. We know their works will never be good enough but God gives them a chance anyway.

    Now the Book (sinular) is the Book of Life. If you are not in it you are in big trouble. If you are you pass from gudgment.
    Rom 8:1
    1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    (KJV)

    We have the righteousness of Christ imputed towards us and we pass from judgment to life eternal.

    Having said all this I still haven't addressed the possibility of being blotted out. I still stand by the verses that show our security as believers that have been previously posted.

    The unrepentant get blotted out. They are in the book of life till the day they die without accepting Christ then they get blotted out. This is the way I see it. It fits my concept and melds the verses we have discussed in perfect harmony. I see your concept and understand it. I simply do not believe it and feel the assurance of the believer is a more acceptable way of looking at our salvation. .... BTW all believers produce fruit. This is what happens and if it doesn't we need to take another look at ourselves.
    Eph 2:10
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    (KJV)

    A true Christian is "his" workmanship created unto good works.

    Hope I have not confused this further. I sometimes lack the ability to put forth my argument clearly......but I keep trying, and thats what these forum are all about.
     
  11. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    Hi Chuck:

    You said > First off does everyone agree that anyone written in the book of life is saved?

    ANSWER: NO - the book of life is what it says that it is a "book of life", because God is a God of "all life". Your name remains there unless God blots it out, or never wrote your name in it in the first place !

    Second is when is a name written in that book?

    ANSWER: From the foundation of the world > Rev. 17:8 tells us whose names were not written in the "book of life" --- "from the foundations of the world" ! ! Here there is no mention of -- "blotting out". Names just were not written in the "book of life"! But those names which were, were written from the "foundations of the world". Christians on the other hand, their names are written in the "lambs book of life" and we Christians were "Chosen from "before the foundation of the world" > Ephesians 1:4. There are "two" books of life !

    Third is the answer you give to questions 1 & 2 will deterimine your answer to Rev. 3:5


    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  12. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    Hervey the Book of life in Rev 17
    Rev 13:8
    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    (KJV)

    The people that worship the beast are not Believers.

    Revelation 17:8 PP1

    [Whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world] See this explained in the notes on <Rev. 13:8>. The idea seems to be, that those whose names are written in the book of life, or who are truly the friends of God, would not be drawn off in admiration of the beast, or in rendering homage to it.
    (from Barnes' Notes)

    I see how they are similar Books and how they may be the same book. I will consider this for awhile. I'm not completely hardheaded.
     
  13. chuck

    chuck New Member

    67
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    Hervey,
    I have been in discussions that this has been stated before but never in depth. Can you I guess tell me what the "book of life" is, like a guess your definition of it then how it differs from the Lamb's book of life"

    Thanks and God Bless
    Chuck
     
  14. IM4HIM

    IM4HIM New Member

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    Open post:

    Rev 13:8, "All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast-all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world."NIV

    Rev 17:8, "The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come."NIV

    Based on these two verses I don't believe everyone's name is written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Seems to me only those who are believers have had their name in the Book of Life since the foundation.

    I do not find scripture supporting differences between the "Book of Life" and the "Lamb's Book of Life". If someone does I would like the reference please.

    I'm glad I came to these forums. I'm learning more and more where other Christians gain their beliefs. This is great!
     
  15. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    Hi all:

    Let me see if I can give a simple explanation about the two books of life. Also, I don't have much time right now, so a full explanation will have to come later - maybe tomorrow.

    The "lambs" book of life is where God has written all those names of "Christians", who God had (past tense) chosen from "before the foundations of the world" - Ephesians 1:4 -- God wrote "their" names from "before" the foundations of the world < remember this, to help clarify the difference between the two books of life !

    The "book of life" is where God has written all those names of everyone else, except those he knew would not "ever" be a part of his kingdom, bcause of the foreknowledge of God . Ref: Rev. 17:* "from the foundations of the world" -- is when everyone else's names were written in the "book of life".

    Book of life - from the foundation of the world

    Lambs book of life - from "before" the foundation of the world

    We can take note, that God took some of the people's names of Israel out of the "book of life" back in Exodus chapter 32. The record of the "book of life" in Rev. 20:12 - 15.

    If "Christians" -- "fall from grace" ( that which they were saved "by" ) they then "fall" from the "lambs book of life". Now, when I mean fall, I mean that they can not be restored back. Again, I can go into greater detail with this later. Because it is important to "know", that when one falls from grace, it does not mean that they are going to the second death -- the Lake of fire. But , it does not mean that they can not go to the second death -- the Lake of fire neither. Again, I can go into this in greater detail later.

    I will try and add to this tomorrow, but go ahead and ask any questions that come to your mind, as it helps me, to help you with a more full understanding.

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  16. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    I Jn 5:4-5
    4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith.
    5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
    (NAU)
    :eek:
    I knew that verse was out there but didn't know where it was. I have mental blocks from time to time.......my wife says "what do you mean 'time to time, it never goes away'"

    Yes oh yes we are overcomers and this too is because we believe in Jesus and Jesus himself is
    Heb 12:2
    2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;
    (KJV)

    I have looked at "book of Life" and "Lambs book of life" in REV. and they seem to be the same book to me. :)
     
  17. IM4HIM

    IM4HIM New Member

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    Hello M.O.G.

    This is to you and RKBO. See if this makes any sense?

    Matthew 24:13 Jesus said, "But he that endures to the end shall be saved."

    What did He mean by "but He that endures to the end shall be saved.", if it doesn't imply that if you don't endure to the end you won't be saved?

    Matt 24:7-14
    13. But the distinguishing mark of the saved Jewish remnant will be their enduring in faith to the end .
    (from The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press)

    Matt 24:4-31
    3. Comfort administered in reference to this offence of the cross, for the support of the Lord's people under it (v. 13); He that endures to the end, shall be saved.

    (1.) It is comfortable to those who wish well to the cause of Christ in general, that, though many are offended, yet some shall endure to the end. When we see so many drawing back, we are ready to fear that the cause of Christ will sink for want of supporters, and his name be left and forgotten for want of some to make profession of it; but even at this time there is a remnant according to the election of grace, Rom 11:5. It is spoken of the same time that this prophecy has reference to; a remnant who are not of them that draw back unto perdition, but believe and persevere to the saving of the soul; they endure to the end, to the end of their lives, to the end of their present state of probation, or to the end of these suffering trying times, to the last encounter, though they should be called to resist unto blood.
    (2.) It is comfortable to those who do thus endure to the end, and suffer for their constancy, that they shall be saved. Perseverance wins the crown, through free grace, and shall wear it. They shall be saved: perhaps they may be delivered out of their troubles, and comfortably survive them in this world; but it is eternal salvation that is here intended. They that endure to the end of their days, shall then receive the end of their faith and hope, even the salvation of their souls, 1 Peter 1:9; Rom 2:7; Rev 3:20. The crown of glory will make amends for all; and a believing regard to that will enable us to choose rather to die at a stake with the persecuted, than to live in a palace with the persecutors.
    (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.)

    Matt 24:13
    [He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved] The word "end," here, has by some been thought to mean the destruction of Jerusalem, or the end of the Jewish economy, and the meaning has been supposed to be "he that perseveres in bearing these persecutions to the end of the wars shall be safe. God will protect his people from harm, so that not a hair of the head shall perish." Others, with more probability, have referred this to final salvation, and refer the end to the close of life. "He that bears afflictions and persecutions faithfully that constantly adheres to his religion, and does not shrink until death shall be saved, or shall enter heaven." So Luke (Luke 21:18) says, "there shall not an hair of your head perish"-that is, they would be saved. "An hair of the head," or the smallest part or portion, is a proverbial expression, denoting the "certainty and completeness" of their salvation. Luke (Luke 21:19) adds further: "In your patience possess ye your souls"-that is, keep your souls "patient;" keep proper possession of patience as your own. It is a part of religion to teach it, and in these trying times let it not depart from you.
    (from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)

    They work hand-in-hand if you don't endure to the end you're blotted out of the book, you have fallen from grace, out of fellowship, dead in sin and by any name you want to call it LOST.
    "shall be saved" NT:4982 sozo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):

    KJV - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

    If these commentators understand that scripture to mean what they say above then I'm inclined to agree.
    Thanks, have a great day! ;)
     
  18. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    Im4him I have about 19 Biblical reference sources on CD and dozens more in books and they differ about this stuff all the time.
    It is how you choose to look at these scriptures. I'm trying to harmonize one way you are trying another. Like I have said before: I think you have to look at the clearest verses on this then use that light to shine on the others.

    Let's look at Matt24:13
    Matt 24:13
    13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    (KJV)

    Can we say that God knows who will endure to the end? I think yes. We do not know who the endurer are. We can not see the heart only God can do that. You see these overcomers and endurers are whitnesess to use 2000 years later of the keeping power of God. They were fed to lions, used as human candles, boiled in oil and the true Christians overcame, endured, and persevered. That's what Christians do. If you don't you never where.

    There is a saying that some will miss heaven by 18 inches...........the distance from the head to the heart. You see if you are not born again when the going gets tough you will change sides instead of make a lion fat. This verse is for us today. We endure because Jesus himself gives us the strength
    Phil 4:13
    13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
    (KJV)

    If we do not do the tough stuff on our own strength then the eduring abilies come from Christ so if we do not endure can we say it is Jesus's fault for not giving us enough strength? No, the idea is that we true Christians will endure and the phony's will not. God know who it is but we do not and this is a way of showing the world who is with us. Look at this verse very close and see if it fits what I'm saying
    I Jn 2:19
    19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
    (KJV)

    In the greek the words "no doubt" are not there but the translators use it because it is how we get the proper english meaning of the next word, "continued" 3306 meno (men'-o);

    a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy):

    KJV-- abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.

    You see the assurance that John had that if they were of us they "would' have continured.
     
  19. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    M O G:

    You said > "Not so to the first, Rev 3:5 "......I will not blot out his name out of the book of life... Does not say "Lamb's book of life."

    The reason it does not say - "Lamb's book of life" , is because it is not talking about the Lamb's book of life ! IT is talking about the other book of life, called --- "the book of life".

    Rev. 3:5 is speaking unto the "Church" in Sardis, and the seven "Churches" in "Asia" ( Rev.1:11 ) - (plural), not the "Church" - (singular) - "body of Christ" !

    What was said there in Rev. 3:5 was not written unto the body of Christ, whoes names were written in the Lamb's book of life, from "before" the foundations of the world" !


    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  20. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    Rev. 17:8 tells us that there were some whoes names were not written in the book of life "from" the foundation of the world. However, there were a lot of names written in the "book of life" - "from" - the foundation of the world. In fact, everyone's names were written in the "book of life" except those God left out, and those whoes names are written in the "Lamb's book of life from "before" the foundation of the world.

    All the names of Israel were in the "book of life", and God blotted out some of their names.

    There was no "sin" against God until there was a command from God for man "not" to do something, and that was the command for man not to eat from the tree of good and evil.

    Anyone's name which was written in the "book of life" - "from" the foundation of the world, had no need to be saved ! But after the sin of man, all mankind had a need to be saved.

    Israel was not saved, but their names were written in the "book of life" - "from" - the foundation of the world. The place that tells us that Israel was not saved is recorded in Romans 10:1

    Those whoes names were not found in the "book of life", were cast into the Lake of Fire.

    God is a Jealous God, and those names of those Israelites that he blotted out of his book of life, will be cast into the Lake of fire. Idolatry is taken very, very seriously by God. Especially of those who knew they were God's people, who were of the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, and followers of God out of bondage , by faith, in their following the prophet Moses whom God had chose to lead his people out of bondage, and to the promise land.

    If I have time tomorrow, I will speak more about the "Lamb's book of life"

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
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