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Blotted out???

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by rkbo, Jan 5, 2002.

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  1. IM4HIM

    IM4HIM New Member

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    Man do I love you RKBO as one Christian brother to another. God Bless your heart, you are as convinced of your salvation and the maintenance of it as probably anyone I've ever seen. That is a blessing and refreshing. I pray to God you never lose that because you need that assurance in your Christain walk. I would be very angry with anyone who would do their best to dissuade you of that conviction.

    Check these out:
    :) We are saved by grace (Eph. 2:8,9), but we can fall from grace (Gal. 5:2-4).
    :) We are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1), but our faith can cease to exist (Luke 8:13; Rom. 11:19-23) and become shipwrecked (1 Tim. 1:19,20).
    :) We are not under the law (Rom. 6:14,15), but if you live according to the sinful nature you will die (Rom. 8:13).
    :) Paul taught against legalism (Gal. 5:3,4), but among others things he taught:
    But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them (Eph. 5:3-6).
    :) We are not saved by works (Eph. 2:8,9), but to reap eternal life and not destruction, you must sow to please the Spirit and not the sinful nature (Gal. 6:8,9).
    :) God is faithful to us (1 John 1:9; 1 Cor. 10:13), but we must be faithful to him to the very end of our lives to escape the lake of fire, or second death (Rev. 2:10,11).
    :) God surely loves us (John 3:16; Mk. 10:21; Rom. 8:35-39), but those who inherit the kingdom of God love God (James 2:5 cf. 1 Cor. 2:9). And to love God means to obey his commandments (Jn. 14:15; 1 John 5:3).
    :) We have freedom in Christ (Gal. 5:1), but this freedom is not to indulge the sinful nature (Gal. 5:13; 1 Pet. 2:16).

    RKBO I was of the Baptist denomination before, I am non-denominational now, a change the opposite of what Charles Stanley did. I am, I think just as solid in what I believe about the matter as you are solid about what you believe. It would be dishonest for me to say I haven't enjoyed the debate and you have presented a very stong case. However, I've been where you are and now I'm where I am. As long as you are anyone else is assured of salvation I don't believe and I pray this discussion should be anything to dissuade them of their assurance.

    I will agree to disagree, but with Christian brotherly love. God Bless.
     
  2. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    First I would like to thank IM4HIM for the list -- very well done !

    As I stated before - The lamb's book of life contains the names of all those whom God had chosen from "before" the foundations of the world. These are Christians , whom God chose to be holy and without blame in him, in love - Eph. 1:4.

    Christians walk by "faith" and not by sight.

    If a Christian "doubts", then "doubt" is a lack of "faith" and whatsoever is not of "faith" is sin - Romans 14:23

    If a Christian goes back to the law, then they fall from grace, by which they were saved, and Christ is made of no affect unto you - Galatians 5:4

    When Christians "walk in righteousness", then they are "IN Christ", which is one of the two usages, of these two words, within the Word of God - seven church epistles.

    Christians from time to time will falter in their walks, but this does not mean that their names will be taken out of the "lambs book of life".

    A Christian would want to desire to walk in unrighteousness continually, before his or her name is removed from the "lambs book of life".

    Christians are to work out their salvation with trembling and fear, because they should know that God is a just God.

    There are very few references about the "lambs book of life", but one of them is recorded in Revelation 21:27 . But one should start with the context, which starts at Revelation 21:1 which is talking about the bride, the Lamb's wife. Which is the holy city , the new Jerusalem .

    There are twelve gates , and twelve foundations, and "in" the twelve foundations , are the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    And no one could "enter into it" , except their names be written in the "Lamb's book of life". Now that would give you an impression, that only Christians can enter into the New Jerusalem. Well, that is true, but what most people who read this do not understand, is that Christians can come and go , in and out of the New Jerusalem. WE can pick up this understanding by reading Revelation 22:14.

    All others , whoes names are in the other book - "the book of life", will also be in the New Jerusalem, but they will not be able to go in and out through the gates.

    If you name is 'blotted' out of the "book of life" your doomed unto the Lake of Fire. But, one can loose a "part" of their future in the holy city and the book of life by their walks here on earth . The reference to this is Revelation 22:19

    So, we have learned that those whoes names are in the "Lamb's book of life can enter into ( go in and out ) of the New Jerusalem gates.

    All others whoes names are still written in the "book of life", will be raised from the dead, and the New Jerusalem will be made new, and the city will be built up around them, from that time period. - Rev. 21:4 & 5 -- 10 thru 24.

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  3. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    Hi Hervey:

    forgive me if I'm wrong about this but I get the feeling that you are not looking at my reasoning very closely. If I have failed to make my point then it is my fault. I will not go over it all over again except to make this one point. I am sorry to keep throwing this at you but it is so comprhensive and complete of a teaching I simply can not ignore it.
    Rom 8:35-39
    35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
    36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
    37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
    38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    (KJV)

    Now it is just as important what Paul doesn't say as it is what he does say. I believe he is trying to make the clearest statement as he possibley can. He uses the terms "Neither death nor life" and "ANY creature". Also very important is "things present, nor things to come". He is covering all the bases. He, himself is a creature and in saying "nor any other creature" after listing the spiritual realm, he is including himself.

    Now what he doesn't say proves my point. He doesn't say "except me". That is he has covered all things and if there was an exception he would have made the referrence. I can not see how this is unclear. Paul took such pains in answering it so that it would not be misunderstood.

    If I had a room full of people that I was addressing and I said everone get on the bus. You would understand that I meant "everyone". Right? But there was one person I didn't want on the bus I would say everyone except "Mr. X". I would not leave it unsaid so that you would have to wonder if I realy meant everyone.

    Having this clear scripture, I then use it to help me understand the other scriptures. I guess I have given it my best shot so I'll shut up for now......thanks.
     
  4. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    rkbo:

    Thank you for your fulle explanation, but I think you are missing some very important points here. Let me see if I can explain.

    First, Paul said that "he was persuaded" that neither death , nor life etc , etc. etc.

    Paul was persuaded by his faith, but some people have not come to the point that Paul was at in his faith. Evidence of this was what happened to the Galatians , and their walks.

    The book of Galatian starts out by saying - Verse 6 - "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel"

    So it does appear that a Christian can be tricked by subtle teachings , to go back to the law. Which would be another gospel , other than the one he taught them. As you know , the Galatians were gentiles, and Paul's ministry was unto gentiles. Also remember that the gentiles were never under the bondage of the law. And that those who teach another gospel should be "accursed" - verse 8.

    Paul goes on to say, that false brethren unawares (who have devil spirit teachings) who also tried to bring Paul and Titus back unto bondage - Chapter 2 - verse 4.

    Paul goes on to say in chapter 3 and in verse one - "O foolish Galatians, who hath betwitched you , that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth before you ? "

    So we can see clearly that one can be tricked into believing a lie, and if one goes back to the law, then on who continues to live the lie, will fall from grace, and Christ will be of no affect unto you.

    Paul was persuaded, but it is obvious that these Galatians were not persuaded in their minds, and Paul needed to come back and establish as to why and how they were saved by grace.

    Paul goes on to tell the Galatians in chapter 3 and in verse 22 , that if they are still going to live under the law, then they are still under sin. Read the full context by reading verses 19 thru 24.

    Paul also points out in chapter 5 , that if you live in the Spirit, then walk in the Spirit. Paul also points out the works of the flesh, which were 'under the law' , which then means one walks back under the law, because the law pointed out sin.

    Paul also pointed out to the Galatians, that if they were overtaken in a fault, that they could be "restored" once again, which fulfills the law of Christ.

    Paul also points out to the Galatians, that what a man soweth , that he also reaps. If he sows to corruption , then he shall reap corruption. Christians who walk in the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

    So you can see, that if one falls from grace, they can be restored, but if they only want to continue sowing to the flesh, then they shall reap corruption. And a Christian who continues until the end, will reap life everlasting. Those who do not, will reap corruption, which means that they will loose their place in the "Lambs book of life".

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  5. IM4HIM

    IM4HIM New Member

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    To Hervey:

    BINGO!! :D
     
  6. swlsal

    swlsal New Member

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    The subject of the Book of Life opens up the whole subject of salvation, as is shown by the comments of the members.
    This "book" is really figurative of God's plan of salvation, so I think there is only one book. God does not need to refer to any physical book. This all refers to Life (with a capital L), meaning salvation.
    Moses' statement about being willing to be "blotted out" is akin to the Apostle Paul's statement (Rom. 9:3) that he was willing to be "cut off from Christ" for the sake of Israel.
    They were willing to sacrifice themselves for their countrymen. Of course this is impossible, as God hasted to tell Moses. Only those that rebel will be lost.
    The expression "Lamb's Book of Life" is appropos only after the advent of the Lord's sacrifice which fulfilled the Law. Before that it was not conceived that Messiah would die like a human. The rebuke to the churches of Rev. is really no different than Paul's rebuke to the Galatians and the Thessalonians.
    I agree with the statement that only at death is a person judged lost or saved; look at the thief at the crucifixion. A person can cease rebelling at any time in his mortal life. That's what free choice is all about.
    Is saved "from" the foundation of the world really any different from saved "before" the foundation of the world? The world was founded "in the beginning" (Gen. 1:1) That is beyond our comprehension. We just marvel at it.
     
  7. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    M O G:

    The verse starts out by saying ----> "I" <------ am persuaded ( Singular) in context, to the whole --> "us" <---. Each one must be persuaded in their own mind. Which means 'fully' persuaded !

    Also - "Faith without works is dead" - James 2:14 thru 18.

    Philippians 2:12 - "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

    If you can not loose your salvation, then what is there to fear ?

    Colossians 2:8 - "Beware lest any man spoil (rot - decay - not worthy - has lost its salt ) through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiment of the world, and not after Christ"

    Colossians 2:20 thru 23 <Read>

    After you have read these verses, ask yourself as to why people celebrate Christmas , or any other so called man made holidays ? ?

    What you sow is what you will reap. The satisfaction of the flesh reaps corruption.

    I Corinth. 3:15 - "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss : but he himself shall be saved ; yet so as by fire"

    This verse is talkling about rewards. Don't confuse verses like this one, with the fact that one can loose their salvation , if they continue in the works of the flesh , which reaps corruption. Walking in the Spirit reaps - "Eternal life" ! !

    As Christians, we do not work to get saved, but we do work because we are saved ! !

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  8. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    How do Hervey:

    You made this statement
    As Christians, we do not work to get saved, but we do work because we are saved ! !

    Now Hervey the point many of us have trying to make is that we are saved. To be saved is an eternal thing. I see how you get what you do out of these verses. I admit we all have presuppositions when we look at difficult passages. That is not a wrong thing if your presuppostion is correct.

    I would like to know if you see where I'm comming from. Even if you reject it I would still like to know if I have made a clear point. Just for my own satifaction in knowing if I'm comming across clear or not.
     
  9. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    "Colossians 2:20 thru 23

    After you have read these verses, ask yourself as to why people celebrate Christmas , or any other so called man made holidays ? ? "

    That sounds like you are being legalistic to me Hervey.
    There is nothing wrong with celebrating Christmas if you celebrate it in the right way.

    As to eternal security, it is clearly taught in scripture.
    The reason people have trouble with it is because they can only see the outside of a person but God sees the heart.
    Consider Judas. If we were around him during Jesus' ministry we would have said that Judas was the "real deal" and was a believer that we could look up to. But what did Christ say of him?
    he said it would be better if he was never born. Christ could see his heart, we could only see the external expressions of him.
    If one can lose their salvation then God is not able to keep them in His hand. The people who fall back to their old self and never return to repentance were never saved in the first place.
     
  10. IM4HIM

    IM4HIM New Member

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    Hello M.O.G.

    A response you gave a few posts ago was reference to Matt 24:13. I understand Jesus was speaking of the tribulation. All the more reason to endure to the end in faith.

    Maybe your Bible says Jesus was talking to the Israelites, but mine says He was answering His disciples two questions. Jesus had just condemned the Pharisees in Chapter 23 and closes with "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LOrd." In the beginning of Chapter 24 His disciples have shown Jesus the temple buildings to which He explains the temple will be destroyed Vs. 2. Then Vs. 3 He was on the Mount of Olives when the disciples asked when will these things be? What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age? Jesus' response was as you indicate Vs. 4-31. This is just one of many verses in the Bible that warn us to endure to the end. Whether enduring to the end of the tribulation or to whatever end, we must endure to receive our salvation. Salvation is not a one time thing, it is an ongoing process that will not end until you stand before the Lord and Savior. His grace will extend all during that time if we avail ourselves of it. However, I don't believe anyone has lost their will suddenly because they have had a conversion experience. If that were so then we would all be perfect and have no need for confession, repentance and forgiveness. As we grow in our Christain maturity we will develop in faith to remain in the flock. Otherwise why would Jesus make reference to the parable of the lost sheep. The reference is that He will leave the whole flock (Christians saved) to go after the lost sheep that has gone astray. Does anyone not understand His parable is to go after the stray Christian to save it from perishing? If that stray Christian is not returned to the flock before the end (tribulation, their death or whatever) what does anyone think will happen to that poor individual? My answer is eternal death even after having been one of the flock!:confused:
     
  11. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    Hi all:

    This is a great subject, but I think we are bouncing each other off, with other scriptures , while not making any head way in our communication.

    First - rkbo - I want you to understand, that I have been following your every word with no trouble.

    One thing rkbo, I think your missing. Christian salvation was "given" as a free gift, not of works , lest any man should boast. All other salvation is by their works. "Believing" is a work. Christians believe because they "are" -- "were" saved. All others believe to get saved.

    M O G:

    I told you not to take I Corinth. 3:15 out of context, and it is the very first thing that you did in replying to IM4HIM , as you said that I quoted this verse. When I told you about this verse, I told you that this verse was "not" about loosing one's salvation, and that it was about loosing one's rewards instead. The context is clear when you read this chapter, that if you build with your work , that your work is to be tried by fire. If your work burns, then you can suffer loss. These verses within this chapter are "NOT" talking about anything other than one's "work" being tried by fire. If you go to I Corinth. chapter 6 , we here within this chapter can see that possibility of loosing one's "inheritance". And again in Ephesians 5:5 & 6

    Now --- As far as my mentioning a holiday such as Christmas, it makes me wonder if you read those verses in Colossians 2:20 - 23 ?

    If not, then please read them now before making a statement that just makes us go in circles in our communication.

    Also take note as to what Paul said in Galatians 4:9 - 11 - Do you observe days, and months, and times , and years ? Read all three verses to get the full context of what Paul is saying !

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  12. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    Hervey I first want you to know that I consider you a brother in Christ and wish I could shake your hand. We do differ in the way we look at scripture. You said in your post:
    One thing rkbo, I think your missing. Christian salvation was "given" as a free gift, not of works , lest any man should boast. All other salvation is by their works. "Believing" is a work. Christians believe because they "are" -- "were" saved. All others believe to get saved.

    I don't understand exactly what you are saying here. Are you saying there are two types of salvation. That is "Christian" and other than Christian. The Old Testaments saints? The OT saints and the NT saints are all saved by Christ. They haveing faith in what he "would do" and us having faith in what he "did". The works they did testified to men that they had faith in their sacrifices symbolization of the Christ to come. They were still saved by faith as we are.
    Rom 3:28
    28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
    (KJV)
    Rom 4:2-5
    2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    (KJV)

    Does this not make a strong point and make it so clear that we need not even debate it?........maybe that was too much to ask for.
     
  13. SOS

    SOS Member

    195
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    Keep up the great discussion guys. May I say as a lurker of this thread I have learned much for myself. I want to thank all of you here for the wonderful contributions!
     
  14. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    SOS jump on in here. Roll around with the rest of us you wont get dirty.
     
  15. hagiadzo1999

    hagiadzo1999 New Member

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    WOW!

    This has been an interesting thread. I have been following the last few days, and praying about the answer to the question, "Can one's name be blotted from the Lamb's Book of Life?". I prayed about this and prayed and I just seemed to go in circles about how to explain it, then I came across this passage in a book I happened to be reading, and it explains this question exactly the way I was trying to organize my thoughts, so here it is, and I think it's obvious where I stand on the issue :)

    Now, precious brothers and sisters, let me try to make plain some passages that have resulted in questions from many of you. In Psalm 69:28, the psalmist pleads with the Lord concerning his enemies: "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."
    Exodus 32:33 says, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot him out of my book.' "
    These references naturally have caused some to fear that they can lose their salvation. But my contention is that the book referred to in those is the book of God the Father, into which are written the names of every person he created.
    The New Testament refers to the Book of Life of the Lamb, and we know that the Lamb is Jesus, for he is the one John the Baptist was referring to (John 1:29) when he said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"
    Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, and thus the Book of Life of the Lamb is the one in which are entered the names of those who have recieved his gift of eternal life.
    The most important difference between these two books is that it is clear a person can have his name blotted out of the Book of the Living. But in Revelation 3:5, Jesus himself promises, "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before my Father and before His angels."
    The overcomers he is regerring to are those clothes in the white garments of Christ himself, guaranteeing that their names cannot be blotted out of the Book of Life of the Lamb.
    To me the Book of the Living is a picture of the mercy of God. It is as if in loving anticipation of our salvation, he writes every person's name in that book. If one dies without trusting Christ for salvation, his name is blotted out, because he is no longer among the living. But those who have trusted Christ have been written in the Lamb's Book of Life, so that when they die physically, they remain alive spiritually and are never blotted out."

    (The Mark, Tim LaHaye & Jerry B. Jenkins, Tyndale House Publishers, Inc. 2000. pp. 342-343).

    This is not my words, but the exact thing I wanted to say but could not organize my thoughts as well as the writer...

    God bless each one here!

    ~N~
    <><

    rkbo~does that show where I stand? ;) lol
     
  16. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
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    M O G:

    If my statement about holidays, was legalistic, then why did the Apostle Paul make the statement before I did ? Because I quoted the Apostle Paul on this subject matter ! < Galatians 4:9 - 11.

    I Corinth. 3:15 is talking about your "works", pertaining to "working out your salvation". This verse is "not" talking about the works of the flesh - as recorded in Galatians 5:19 - 21. If you do the works of the flesh, you reap corruption, and it says in verse 21 that you will "not" inherit the kingdom of God. This means that you would have lost your "Christian" salvation, because you want to continue in the works of the flesh , instead of living in the Spirit and walking in the Spirit, which reaps eternal life.

    I Corinth. 3:15 and the context around this verse, is talking about "your" works of "your" salvation. If you build upon the foundation of Jesus Christ with - gold - wood - hay - stubble - silver - and precious stones, which are all things that pertain to riches and building materials, then your working out your salvation will be burned, and you will suffer loss. But that person himself will still be saved, because fire has already tried your salvation, not based upon "your works" ! ! Because -- -- As a Christian, one was saved by "grace" and not of his "works".

    You took these verses in I Corinth chapter 3 out of context and claimed that one could not loose their salvation as a Christian. That is just not true ! ! The whole book of Galatians and verses like these in Ephesians 5:2 - 6 and I Corinth 6:9 - 10 totally disagree with your theory that one can not loose their Christian salvation ! !

    These verses in I Corinth. chapter 3 are saying that your salvation is not going to be lost because of your "works". But you will suffer loss as far as rewards are concerned.

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  17. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
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    Hi rkbo:

    No - there are not two "types" of salvation, there are two "forms" of salvation.

    All salvation is through Jesus Christ, but Christian salvation was given from "before" the foundation of the world, because we were "chosen" from before the foundation of the world - Ephesian 1:4. For many are called, but few are "chosen". Only a few are chosen, but many are called - Matthew 22:14.

    Those who come to Christ and receive their salvation, come of their own free will to choose of themselves, the salvation that is freely given to those who desire salvation.

    The theif on the cross was "not" a Christian who was chosen from before the foundation of the world. He himself choose salvation through Christ while he was on his own cross with Christ. Jesus Christ promised him "paradise", also called the New Earth, also called the city of God, called the New Jerusalem.

    Christians go to "heaven". In the future, when there will be a new heaven and a new earth. Christians can go in and out of the gates of "paradise", also called the city of God called the - "New Jerusalem", which is the "New Earth", whoes names are written in the "Lamb's book of life" - Rev. 21:27

    Christ was the saviour of the world, but , if your names is "blotted" out of the book of life, then you end up in the Lake of Fire, also called the second death.

    If Christians loose their Christian salvation, and their names are blotted out of the "Lamb's book of life", then they could still be saved still saved. One way to loose one's Christian salvation would be to "fall from grace" by going back and doing the Law. If one does the Law, and they were saved by grace, then they loose only that which they were saved by - "grace". They themselves are still saved, but will be in the final judgment instead of the judgment seat of Christ, where rewards are handed out. The final judgment is the "White throne judgment", which is recorded in Rev. 20:11 - 15.

    If you will remember this one little word > "TWO", then you will have tapped into one of the 'mysteries of God'. For God is a God of "two" of everything !

    Born --- Born again

    Death --- Second death

    Life --- Eternal life

    Many are "called", but few are "chosen"

    One can be -- hot or cold = Two , but not - luke warm or God will spue thee out of his mouth - Rev. 3:16

    A false balance is an abomination unto the Lord - Proverbs 11:1 and Proverbs 16:11.

    God Bless brother

    Love IN Christ - HErvey
     
  18. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    Hervey I believe you have done a lot of study on this but I find it to be convoluted. I'm not attacking you but I think you have been reading the wrong books.

    You are making this much more complicated that it is. Do you have and agenda to prove can you see why I think that you do? Your answers are so complicated. Seems you have to do that to make a point that I don't see in scripture. I would post a verse right here but I think you would go through 14 paragraphs to show me wrong.

    I don't mean to offend but you are frustrating me at his point. I will say this I think you need to get back to basics.
    1 Cor 1:23
    23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
    (KJV)
     
  19. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    … there are two "forms" of salvation … The theif on the cross was "not" a Christian who was chosen from before the foundation of the world. He himself choose salvation through Christ while he was on his own cross with Christ. Jesus Christ promised him "paradise", also called the New Earth, also called the city of God, called the New Jerusalem.

    Christ was the saviour of the world, but , if your names is "blotted" out of the book of life, then you end up in the Lake of Fire, also called the second death. If Christians loose their Christian salvation, and their names are blotted out of the "Lamb's book of life", then they could still be saved still saved. One way to loose one's Christian salvation would be to "fall from grace" by going back and doing the Law. If one does the Law, and they were saved by grace, then they loose only that which they were saved by - "grace". They themselves are still saved, but will be in the final judgment instead of the judgment seat of Christ, where rewards are handed out. The final judgment is the "White throne judgment", which is recorded in Rev. 20:11 - 15.


    Jim:

    I’m confused by what you’ve said here.

    First you said that those whose names are blotted out of the book of life end up in the lake of fire. Then you said that those whose names are blotted out of the book of life don’t end up in the lake of fire; they just forfeit the first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6) and default to the second resurrection (Revelation 20:11-15).

    You also said that the thief on the cross was not chosen from the foundation of the world. (Did you mean by this that his name was/is not written in the book of life?) Yet you said that he will have access to the New Jerusalem.

    Here’s what the Bible ways regarding the book of life:

    It appears to me from these passages that those whose names are written in the book of life end up in the New Jerusalem, and that those whose names are not written in the book of life end up in the lake of fire. I don’t see a third option here.

    Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 say this: “… whose names are not written in THE BOOK OF LIFE of the Lamb SLAIN [4969, sphazo, verb, to slay] from the foundation of the world .” and, “…whose names were not WRITTEN [1125, grapho, verb, to write] in THE BOOK OF LIFE from the foundation of the world …” In 13:8, the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world; in 17:8, the names were written from the foundation of the world.

    Since Christ was not literally crucified at the foundation of the world, perhaps the names were not literally written at the foundation of the world. Just as a plan for Christ to be crucified was in place at the foundation of the world, but this plan was not carried out until later, likewise perhaps a plan for names to be written in the book of life was in place at the foundation of the world, but this plan was not carried out until later (from fallen Adam and Eve onward). Perhaps these names have been progressively written in the book of life over the course of time from generation to generation.

    Thus, perhaps names have constantly been added to the book of life from generation to generation as people have gotten saved through faith in God (both Old and New Testaments), and perhaps some names (according to Revelation 3:5) have gotten (or will get) blotted out.

    Then again, I guess it’s possible that the names themselves were already written in the book of life at the foundation of the world. In my opinion, either interpretation is scripturally plausible.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  20. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    Good to have a new poster at this forum.

    The reason people don't get the full understanding of what I say, or what is written within the Word of God, is because they do not "see" that there are "two" books of life.

    #1 - Book of life - also called the "book of the living" in Psalms 69:28

    #2 - "Lamb's book of life" -- also called the "book of life of the Lamb"

    To be "blotted" out of the "book of life", means that your name is not there, and one would end up in the "Lake of Fire" because their name is not in the "book of life" any more, because God "blotted" it out.

    If you were chosen from "before" the foundation of the world, then you name is in the "Lamb's book of life". And because of this, you could have your name blotted out by God, because you desire to do the law, instead of living by grace. Then you still would have salvation, but not the promised salvation by grace. If one desires to walk in the flesh, and to continue to walk in the flesh. Then one can loose their whole salvation, if God blots out their name from the "book of life".

    The Word tells us -- The first last and the last first.

    If you are of the "Last Adam", then you are IN Christ, and you have Christ IN you, and you are in the body of Christ, which is the "Last Adam". The "Last Adam" shall be raised first, and all those of the first Adam = the rest of mankind -- will be raised last.

    The theif on the cross had his name written in the "book of life" from the foundation of the Word. The fear of God , is to not let you name be "blotted" out of the book of life !

    Rev. 13:8 is the "Lamb's book of life" - Book #2

    Rev. 17:8 is the "book of life" - Book #!

    Also take note, that these two verses are talking about two different time periods.

    Rev. 13:8 - "those who are on the earth - "shall worship"
    Rev. 17:8 - "those who are on the earth - "shall wonder"

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
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