Blameless in the Law

Does Yahshua call us to the impossible?

  • Yes. Only Yahshua can follow the example that he called us to follow.

  • No. Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.


Results are only viewable after voting.

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
55,169
8,129
US
✟1,096,355.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
This passage had a lot to say not just in its immediate context (Jesus dealing with Jewish fasting traditions vs. his ministry), but in the greater context of moving from the New Covenant to the Old Covenant. It seems to me that some Hebrew roots people are trying to find ways to convince the rest of us gentile believers that we need to find ways of greasing up the old wine skin of Torah observance, compared to the one we have of simply following Christ.

Yahshua followed the Torah as he called us to follow him.

And yes, I do not believe that Judaism, even Messianic Judaism had what it takes to have succeeded in missionizing the world compared to Christianity. If it had, by Providence, God certainly would have preserved it, rather than allowing it to die out for the last 1600 years or so (It did not come back officially until the 1950s).

So you believe that the ones who were killing of the early ecclesia, including Messiah, were the ones who had it right; because they prevailed for a time?
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
55,169
8,129
US
✟1,096,355.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Context, context, context. Taking scripture out of the context of the passage it is written and out of the context of the rest of the Bible does not lend credit to your assertion.

Context, context, context.

Paul Luke and Mathew made the assertions. Please let us try to not get us all confused.
 
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟183,148.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Context, context, context.

Paul Luke and Mathew made the assertions. Please let us try to not get us all confused.
Most people here are not confused. It's you who's confused. That's why you never answered the fact that I exposed the fact that you took one verse of scripture out of context, making it yet another one of your many failed attempts to support your view regarding obedience to Torah.
 
Upvote 0

Pavel Mosko

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic
Site Supporter
Oct 4, 2016
7,236
7,312
56
Boyertown, PA.
✟768,575.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
So you believe that the ones who were killing of the early ecclesia, including Messiah, were the ones who had it right; because they prevailed for a time?


1 Corinthians 9:19–23
English Standard Version
though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. that I may share with them in its blessings.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mr. M
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,136
3,213
Prescott, Az
✟38,803.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Yahshua followed the Torah as he called us to follow him.
Yahshua followed the Torah because He was a Jew.
Galatians 4:
1
Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all,
2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world.
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6
And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

12 Brethren, I urge you to become like me, for I became like you. You have not injured me at all.
13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first.
14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me.
16 Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?
17 They [of the circumcision group] zealously court you, but for no good; yes, they want to exclude you, that you may be zealous for them.
18 But it is good to be zealous in a good thing always, and not only when I am present with you.
19 My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you,
20 I would like to be present with you now and to change my tone; for I have doubts about you.

They [of the circumcision group] zealously court you,
Back to the OP and Philippians 3:
2
Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation!
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh
,
4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so:
5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;
Covenant of flesh vs. covenant of The Spirit.
Genesis 17:13.
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

The covenant in the flesh cannot in any way supercede the new covenant in the Spirit.
Paul wouldn't let this go!
Galatians 5
:
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
7
You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?
8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you.
9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
10I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.
11
And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased.
12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!
13
For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!
Oh my. Paul wishes that those who trouble them to be emasculated/castrated! Ouch!
Who were these troublemakers? Paul withstood them.
Galatians 2:
3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised
.
4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),
5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
Who sent out these troublemakers?
Acts 15:
1
And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”
2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.
On to Jerusalem.
5
. But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
This sect of the Pharisees were usurpers. No one put them in charge. Peter, James, John, Paul and Barnabas all withstood them. And yet the spirit of the Pharisees lives on in Jews professing to be for Jesus who teach gentiles the same doctrine, and many gentiles back them and have defiled many.
 
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Site Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Does Yahshua call us to the impossible?
So these are the options:
  1. Yes. Only Yahshua can follow the example that he called us to follow.
  2. No. Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.
I'm confused with this discussion because aren't these choices the same thing?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Scott Husted
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,136
3,213
Prescott, Az
✟38,803.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
So these are the options:
  1. Yes. Only Yahshua can follow the example that he called us to follow.
  2. No. Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.
I'm confused with this discussion because aren't these choices the same thing?
This is the Promise, which remains the viable option.
John 14:16.
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you
.

1 John 2:6
He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

This is the working of the Holy Spirit, as Paul teaches.
Galatians 5:
16
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
[i.e. under condemnation]

Romans 8
:
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk
according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,178
1,226
71
Sebring, FL
✟664,282.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
(CLV) Php 3:6
in acrelation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in acrelation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.


(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.

Who says it's impossible?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Does Yahshua call us to the impossible?



I'm not going to take your posts seriously until you stop using the CLV translation.
This is the worst translation I have ever seen. The translators definitely have a hidden agenda and I'm not even sure I know what it is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Strong in Him
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

danielmears

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jan 30, 2018
266
156
Phelan
✟132,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
(CLV) Php 3:6
in acrelation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in acrelation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.


(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.

Who says it's impossible?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Does Yahshua call us to the impossible?
(CLV) Php 3:6
in acrelation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in acrelation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.


(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.

Who says it's impossible?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Does Yahshua call us to the impossible?
For the analogy to work, I would have to say Moses. That would not even get you into the promised land by all accounts.
Acts 7:42. Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?
(CLV) Php 3:6
in acrelation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in acrelation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.


(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.

Who says it's impossible?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Does Yahshua call us to the impossible?
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,863
7,973
NW England
✟1,050,334.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yahshua followed the Torah as he called us to follow him.

Jesus came to fulfil the law. According to the religious leaders, he didn't follow all of it though - he touched dead bodies, lepers and a bleeding woman, which would have made him ceremonially unclean, he healed on the Sabbath and his disciples picked corn on the Sabbath. He also taught that nothing which goes into a person's mouth makes them unclean.

And he never said to Gentiles; "when you follow me, that means keeping the whole of the Jewish law."
 
Upvote 0

danielmears

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jan 30, 2018
266
156
Phelan
✟132,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, all things are possible with God!
(CLV) Php 3:6
in acrelation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in acrelation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.


(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.

Who says it's impossible?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Does Yahshua call us to the impossible?
There is another huge lesson to learn about Zacharias who questioned the angel Gabriel and was made dumb, where he could not speak until after John's birth and that is the power of the tongue. Mary contrarily said this, Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it unto me according to thy word. Luke 1:38 Thus acting in faith! Jesus too tells us, For by thy words thou shall be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Matthew 12:37 Yes, we are called to do the impossible, walk by faith not by sight but it is all do-able with God/Christ in Us!
 
  • Like
Reactions: HARK!
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,290
5,242
45
Oregon
✟958,691.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
(CLV) Php 3:6
in acrelation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in acrelation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.


(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.

Who says it's impossible?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Does Yahshua call us to the impossible?
Yahshua was setting and laying a trap at the very same time and with the very same things with which he was or would set others free...

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

Dkh587

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 6, 2014
3,049
1,770
Southeast
✟552,407.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Jesus came to fulfil the law. According to the religious leaders, he didn't follow all of it though - he touched dead bodies, lepers and a bleeding woman, which would have made him ceremonially unclean, he healed on the Sabbath and his disciples picked corn on the Sabbath. He also taught that nothing which goes into a person's mouth makes them unclean.

And he never said to Gentiles; "when you follow me, that means keeping the whole of the Jewish law."
God’s law and Jewish law are 2 different things

Christ did not obey and follow Jewish law

He kept & taught obedience to the law of Moses & God.

it doesn’t biblically make sense to follow someone and not do what they do. That’s what makes you a follower. You do what the person you are following does.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: HARK!
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,290
5,242
45
Oregon
✟958,691.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Yahshua was setting and laying a trap at the very same time and with the very same things with which he was or would set others free...

God Bless!
Most of us know "whom the Son sets free is free indeed", but I would also add "whom the Son ensnares or traps is ensnared or trapped indeed" also, etc...

And it is with the very same things, or the very same words, or Word, that He does both, etc...

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

Jipsah

Blood Drinker
Aug 17, 2005
12,401
3,706
70
Franklin, Tennessee
✟220,663.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Who says it's impossible?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Does Yahshua call us to the impossible?
Nope. But having said that, other than our Lord, the next person I meet or hear of who's made the cut will make a grand total of one.
 
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,136
3,213
Prescott, Az
✟38,803.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
One Righteous Generation who kept the Law:
John 3:31. He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and
speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.

There is a multitude of Bible teachers who embody the notion of an earthly man that speaks of the earth while failing to lay hold of The Spirit of Truth. A perfect example is the many teachings that refer to the early monarchy in Israel, as represented by Kings David and Solomon, being the “Golden Age” Of Israel. This view from the earth fails to identify the True Golden Age of historical Israel from the view of the One from above, who is above all.

Joshua 24:31. Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders who outlived Joshua, who had known all the works of the Lord which He had done for Israel.

Before Messiah Yeshua came to earth, this time prior to the falling away in the time of the Judges would be the Golden Age of Israel as viewed from a heavenly perspective. This also gives us a unique lesson in faith from an Old Testament narrative. This period stands out by a complete lack of description for the era. One verse! One statement, and moving on.

2 Corinthians 4:18. For we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Romans 8:25. If we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

In the absence of a narrative, we have to believe that God’s Word is True, without a testimony for confirmation. For if Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, AND all the days of the elders who outlived Joshua, then we must believe that they lived under the blessings promised for those who were faithful.
Can we see a parallel between the first generation of Israel who entered the promised land under Joshua, and the first generation church after the ascension of Yeshua?

Israel High Above All Nations
 
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,136
3,213
Prescott, Az
✟38,803.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Well you seem very confident of yourself.

Perhaps you can break it down to the minutia, so that even any adolescents who might be viewing, can easily understand.
Here is some minutiae that I think you will appreciate.
Joshua 24:31. Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders who outlived Joshua, who had known all the works of the Lord which He had done for Israel.

In the absence of a narrative, we have to believe that God’s Word is True, without a testimony for confirmation. For if Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, AND all the days of the elders who outlived Joshua, then we must believe that they lived under the blessings promised for those who were faithful.
Can we see a parallel between the first generation of Israel who entered the promised land under Joshua, and the first generation church after the ascension of Yeshua?

Israel High Above All Nations
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Pavel Mosko

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic
Site Supporter
Oct 4, 2016
7,236
7,312
56
Boyertown, PA.
✟768,575.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
So these are the options:
  1. Yes. Only Yahshua can follow the example that he called us to follow.
  2. No. Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.
I'm confused with this discussion because aren't these choices the same thing?

No. Well at least in my reading of the OP, I tend to read it in light of the 12-24 (my guesstimate) of other threads he has posted, which have been on subjects like "Hey you Christians why are you not Sabbath keeping?" "Hey you Christians why are you eating meat forbidden in the Torah?" etc.

So according to my interpretation, 1 is really about our ability to follow Christ by following the Torah in letter and spirit.

While 2) is mainstream Christian theology and ethics.
 
Upvote 0