• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Does Yahshua call us to the impossible?

  • Yes. Only Yahshua can follow the example that he called us to follow.

  • No. Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.


Results are only viewable after voting.

FredVB

Regular Member
Mar 11, 2010
5,026
1,016
America
Visit site
✟327,070.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Scott Husted said:
That's just it, we already are to our Father ... which will if it hasn't already appeared as this to us, a very personal truth of relationship, like a name in a white stone given ... it's what we see in his face.

It seems like such a relief for us, to be without any pressure for change in anything. We just come to God through Christ, and be in relationship continually. If we really are, still, it would be made known to us that there is more for us, Christ came for our redemption that we would be removed from sin. Anything contrary to our conscience is sin, as is said in the Bible, along with that, things are shown to be sin against God in the Bible, the commandments are included for that. Our spiritual lives in faith should lead us away from disobedient lives.
 
Upvote 0

Sammy-San

Newbie
May 23, 2013
9,020
848
✟119,589.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Could you clarify when women may speak in church?

 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
64,813
10,753
US
✟1,570,129.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Could you clarify when women may speak in church?

I'm, not prepared to answer this question. As I'm not a woman; I haven't dug deeply into this subject.

I will say this. In the last Sunday, KJV church I attended; all of the men would attend, and vote at the board meetings. The women and children would all go to the fellowship hall, for fun, while the men attended the meeting. There was never a question. It's just what we did.

In the last Messianic congregation, the main leader asked if the women wanted to be involved in the board meetings. In order to be at those board meetings. one had to be approved by the core leaders. He asked several times, at the end of a service. All of the women kept saying, " no let the men make the decisions."

However, the smartest of the women asked asked if they could sit in on the meeting anyway. They were approved. Then strangely they wanted to speak at the meetings. However they wouldn't vote. The main leader would have allowed their vote. Some of them were very passionate about certain subjects; but even then they wouldn't vote, even when they were asked for their vote.

I liked the Messianic leader's approach. It wasn't oppressive. It was inclusive of the sensitivities of the women. I also respect the women who didn't attend those meetings on principle. I also respect the women who attended, let the men do most of the talking, and would not vote even when the opportunity was offered. Some of them were more insightful on certain subjects than the men; but in the end they submitted to silence.

I don't want to beat women with the Bible. We can share the scripture in a way that isn't directed at anyone personally; and let the Ruach bring conviction to each person.

I try to put myself in their place. I wouldn't want a group of women putting pressure on me, to live according to obligations that YHWH has for men. For example, Christian women tend to stay out of discussions about circumcision. I'm thankful for this.

You may wish to start a thread on this topic; if you are a woman. If you are a man; I'd walk gently on this topic.

I appreciate the opportunity to give you my opinion on the subject; but this is not the subject of this thread.
 
Upvote 0

Sammy-San

Newbie
May 23, 2013
9,020
848
✟119,589.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Female rabbis or Messianic rabbis isn't Bibical
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
64,813
10,753
US
✟1,570,129.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Female rabbis or Messianic rabbis isn't Bibical

Matthew 23:8

Complete Jewish Bible


8 “But you are not to let yourselves be called ‘Rabbi’; because you have one Rabbi, and you are all each other’s brothers.
 
Upvote 0

Sammy-San

Newbie
May 23, 2013
9,020
848
✟119,589.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Matthew 23:8

Complete Jewish Bible


8 “But you are not to let yourselves be called ‘Rabbi’; because you have one Rabbi, and you are all each other’s brothers.
It's kinda interesting that father rabbi and priest are all not Bibical titles
 
Upvote 0

FredVB

Regular Member
Mar 11, 2010
5,026
1,016
America
Visit site
✟327,070.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
"Father, rabbi, and priest are all not Biblical titles"

Priests were yet used for God's purposes in the Bible, still they only were models for what Christ who was promised is for us who come to him and with repentant faith are believers. The one single Father to us is God, so we are not to address men as Father. There is more to grow to while God does save us with grace. If we are saved, God's will would be important to us.
 
Upvote 0

FredVB

Regular Member
Mar 11, 2010
5,026
1,016
America
Visit site
✟327,070.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It is possible in the sense that Christ is the real priesthood, sacrifice with the only real effective atonement, and the full way of being made clean in the needed way to come to God, that there were models for in the law, while commandments are still meaningful for it, and the perfection is only with what is shown at the end of Genesis 1, that is also for us.

'As' in the passage can be understood to mean because your Father in heaven is perfect. We cannot have perfection of God, but we can live as God meant us to live. But stop sinning, for that.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,657
4,681
Hudson
✟347,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Galatians 2:21. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law,
then Christ is dead in vain.
To become a character trait is to become someone who chooses to be a doer of that trait while it contradictory to become a character trait whihtout choosing to become a doer of that trait, so to become courageous is to become a doer of courageousness while it would be contradictory to become courageous whithout choosing to become that, and the same is true for what it means for God and for us to be righteous. So to become righteous is to become a doer of righteousness in obedience to God's law and it would be contradictory to become righteous without choosing to become a doer of righteousness, though we do not earn our righteousness as a wage as the result of our obedience to it. This is why we are declared righteous by faith apart from having done any works to result in earning it while the faith by which we are declared righteous does not abolish our need to be a doer of the law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romana 3:28-31).

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting God's law before him, so this has always been the one and only way to become righteous by grace through faith.

While there are many verses like Romans 4:1-5 that speak against earning our righteousness as the result of our obedience to God's law, there are also many verses like Romans 2:13 that show that our righteousness nevertheless still requires us to choose to be a doer of the law, so there must be reasons why our righteousness requires us to choose to be a doer of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage.

In regard to Galatians 3:19, in Acts 3:25-26, Jesus was sent as the see to whom the promise was made in order to bless us by turning us from our wickedness, which is calling for us to repent and obey God's law in accordance with spreading the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), which he spread to those in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5). In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him, and in Psalms 119:1-3, God's law is how the children of Abraham knew how to be blessed, so the way that the children are multiplied and are a blessing to the nations in accordance with the promise is by blessing the nations by turning them from their wickedness and teaching them to do the same works as Abraham did in obedience to God's law in accordance with spreading the Gospel.

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in God's way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawless to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which is eternal life (John 17:3)

In Romans 9:30-10:4, they had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they pursued the law as though righteousness were the result of their works instead of pursuing it as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-13, this faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim by saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, the one who obeys it will attain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God rose him from the dead.


In accordance with Jesus saying that he would tell workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, it would be incorrect to interpret that passage as saying that we just need to know Christ and obeying the law is rubbish. Rather, Paul had been in the same situation as those in Romans 9:30-10:4, where he had been obeying the law, but without being focused on knowing Christ through it, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law, and that is what he counted as rubbish.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,657
4,681
Hudson
✟347,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
There are many people who are described as being righteous, so Romans 3:10 was not denying this, but rather it was quoting Psalms 14:1-3, which says that no one is righteous who says that there is no God.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is the content of His gift of salvation, and to refuse to do that is to refuse the free gift of salvation. Relying on ourselves does not involve relying on on anyone else, so relying on what God has instructed is the way to rely on God, not the way to rely on ourselves.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, while saying that Jesus fulfilled the law for us so that we don't need to repent would be the opposite of the Gospel message,

In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that His law is not too difficult for us to keep.

Hebrews explains why...

It was unbelief that prevented them from entering...
Hebrews 3:18-19 says that it was unbelief/disobedience that prevented the from entering.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,657
4,681
Hudson
✟347,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Jesus did not start speaking about the New Covenant and establish it until the end of his ministry, so everything that he taught prior to that point was in regard to the way to live under the Mosaic Covenant. Jesus had just selected his disciples, he was being questions about why they weren't fasting, and he gave a parable to answer that question which has nothing to do with moving on from the Mosaic Covenant, so anachoristic for you to try insert that into it.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,657
4,681
Hudson
✟347,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
It is quite clear what YHWH expects - absolute perfect obedience, even better than that of the Pharisees. Are you there yet?
God's law came with instructions for what to do when the people sinned, so God did not expect absolute perfect obedience.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,657
4,681
Hudson
✟347,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
And he never said to Gentiles; "when you follow me, that means keeping the whole of the Jewish law."
Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so he would have still taught full obedience to it even if he had said nothing, and we are told to follow his example of reframing from sin (1 Peter 2:21-22), so Gentiles can decide whether or not they want to do that in accordance with the Gospel message, but Gentiles can't follow him by refusing to follow what he taught. Following his example of reframing from sin does not refer to things like wearing robes and sandals. Following Jesus is not just for Jews, but for Gentiles too.

In Deuteronomy 6:4-7, the way to love God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength is by keeping the Torah on our heart and by teaching and speaking about it throughout the day. If love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit idolatry, adultery, murder, theft, kidnapping, rape, favoritism, and so forth for God's other laws, so the reason why the laws hang on the greatest two commandments is because they are all examples of what it means to correctly. Jesus expressed his love for us through His obedience to the Torah, so that is how we are to love one another as he loved us. In Matthew 24:12-14, Jesus said that because of lawlessness the love of many will grow cold, so he wasn't saying that we just need to love and can disobey everything else. So if you believe that you should obey the greatest two commandments, then you should also believe that you should obey God's other commandments.

In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from it, so he did not do that, but even if he could have done that without disqualifying himself as our Savior, then that would mean that we should still obey the Mosaic Law plus what he added to it. If we correctly understand what is being commanded by the 7th and 10th Commandments against adultery and coveting in our heart, then we won't lust after a woman in our heart, so He was just teaching how the law was always intended to be understood, not adding to it.

Paul lived in obedience to Christ.
He taught that the law, and circumcision, could not save. He said that those who preached circumcision for salvation were false teachers,
The reason why God commanded circumcised was never as a means of earning our salvation, so while Paul spoke against become circumcised for incorrect reasons, he never spoke against obeying what God has commanded.

If he had expected his Gentile followers to start obeying a law that was not given to them, he would have said so - and you should be able to quote the Scripture which says that.
Jesus did spend his ministry teaching how to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and then his commissioned his disciples to make disciples of all nations, teaching everything that he taught them.


He wasn't teaching obedience to the law; he said he had come to fulfil the law.
To fulfill the law is "to cause God's will as made known through His law to be obeyed as he should be", so fulfilling the law is teaching it.

"that does not say that Gentiles who follow Jesus and have eternal life need to keep the law."
In Matthew 19:17 and Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying. God's commandments.

The law still exists and is valid, but Gentile believers who are in Christ and have freedom, eternal life, forgiveness and every blessing are not told that they have to keep it - and never were.
God's law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so it is contradictory to believe in Christ while rejecting God's word.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and the Torah is how we know what sin is (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. For example, honoring our parents is the way that Jesus saves us from not honoring our parents, and the same is true of God's other laws. It is contradictory for someone who thinks that they don't need to obey the Torah to think that they need salvation from not obeying it.

So, yes, of course I believe the law and the prophets, I just don't live by everything that they taught. They pointed to Jesus; I believe in him.
We should live in a way that point towards Christ, so if you agree that the Torah point toward him, then you should live in obedience to it rather than living in a way that points away from him.

The God of Israel gave instructions for how to believe in and follow Him, so the extent that you refuse to follow those instructions is the extent that you do not believe in or follow Him. In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to be holy for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, so if someone refuses to follow those instructions, then they do not believe that God is holy. If God were not holy, then it would make no difference in the way that they live, so they instead choose to live in a way that points to a god who is not holy.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,657
4,681
Hudson
✟347,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice of whether we are going to lean on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or whether we are going to trust in God with all of our heart to correctly make that division through what He has instructed, and he will make our paths straight, so that is what it means to have faith.

While Paul denies that we can earn our righteousness as a wage even through perfect obedience (Roman 4:1-5), he also said that only doers of the law will be declared righteous (Romans 2:13), so there must be reasons why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the aw other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as our faith upholds God's law (Romans 3:31).
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,657
4,681
Hudson
✟347,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing Christ is the goal of the Torah. As such, Philippians 3:8-9 should not be interpreted as saying that we just need to know Christ and being zealous for obeying the Torah is dung, but rather Paul had been keeping the Torah without being focusing on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the Torah, and that is what he counted as dung. The goal of the Torah was never to provide of means of earning our righteousness as a wage even through perfect obedience, so that has never been the reason why we should obey it. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we do not earn our salvation as the result of having done those works and we do not need to do those works as the result of having been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of salvation.

The foreshadows testify about what is to come and we should live in a way that testifies about the truth of what is to come rather than a way that denies it.

The Torah leads us to Christ because its goal is to teach us how to know him, but it does not lead us to Christ so that we can then reject what he taught.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification by his obedience to God as a wage (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith complete his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

So becoming someone who has faith, who is justified, and who is a doer of the law are all linked such that we become all three at the same time, so anyone who has one also is the others and anyone who is missing one is also missing the others. This is how Paul can say that only doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), that we are justified by faith apart from having done any works to earn it, and that the faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to be a doer of the law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31).

The Torah is God's instructions for how to do what is righteous, not for how to become righteous. For example, the Torah reveals that it is righteous to help the poor, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous because the one an do only way to become righteous is by grace through faith. So when God declares us to be righteous, He is also declaring us to be someone who chooses to do what is righteous in obedience to His law, which is the the content of the gift of righteousness.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,657
4,681
Hudson
✟347,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart because he never knew them, so knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which is eternal life (John 17:13), which is also why Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28). Likewise, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him (Hebrews 5:9) and those who obeyed God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life (Revelation 22:14), so it is clear that obeying God's commandments is the way to enter eternal life/heaven, which is because they are His instructions for how to do that.

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good work, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), which is also the way to please the blood of Christ.

It should be noted that none of these verses say anything about needing to have perfect obedience. God's law came with instructions for what to do when the people sinned, so it never required us to have perfect obedience. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience to brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience, and this is the word of faith that we proclaim in Romana 10:5-10. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have not had perfect obedience, so the fact that we can repent demonstrates that we don't need perfect obedience. Even if someone managed to have perfect obedience to God's law, then there still wouldn't be anything that we earn as a wage that God owes us in return for our works (Romans 4:1-5).
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,657
4,681
Hudson
✟347,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
The penalty for committing murder is death, so the fact that Cain was not given the death penalty is a strong indication that he was not found guilty of committing murder, but rather him being concerned about being avenged and being given protection shows that he was treated in accordance with what would be instructed in Deuteronomy 19 for how to treat those who commit accidental manslaughter.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which is in accordance with Jesus been sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), and which he spread to those in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5).

In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in His way by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to him all that He has promised. In Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply Abraham's children as the stars in the heaven, to his children he will give all of these lands, and through his children all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because he heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if they love the Lord their God with all of their heart by walking in His way in obedience to His commandments, statutes, and laws, then they will live and multiply and God will bless the in the land that they go to possess. So the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that, and because they did that in obedience to the Torah.

In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works that he did, and in Psalms 119:1-3, the Torah is how the children of Abraham knew how to be blessed by walking in God's way, so the way that the children of Abraham are multiplied and are a blessing to the nations in accordance with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nations from their wickedness and by teaching them to do the same works as Abraham by walking in God's way in obedience to the Torah in accordance with spreading the Gospel.

NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo
"to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment"

After Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in Matthew 5, he immediately proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it as it should be. According to Galatians 5:14, everyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting God's law before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

The Bible never specifies which laws are moral, civil, or ceremonial, and never even refers to those as being categories of law. If a group of people were to create lists of which of God's laws that they considered to be in each of those categories, then you would end up with a wide variety of lists that have not been derived from the Bible, and those people should not interpret the authors of the Bible as referring to something that they just created. For example, are laws in regard to marriage moral, civil, or ceremonial? Is the law against rape civil or moral? People are free to decide for themselves and categorize God's laws however they want, but just because they have the freedom to do that does not establish that the any of the authors of the Bible categorized God's laws in the same way. I have the freedom to categorize God's laws based on which part of the body is most commonly used to obey/disobey them, such as with the law against theft being a hand law, but I would run into error if I tried to interpret the Bible as referring to a category of law that I just created.
 
Upvote 0