Blame birth control and the Pagans

[transientlife]

I agree with you jayem...there were never any "good old days", everything is more out in the open now than it was years and years ago, but I would highly doubt the statistics are that greater now than then.

 

[Archivist]

Why do so many people just accept this notion that there is so much more "immorality" now than in times past? I don't believe it for a minute. There is certainly more openess about sexuality. But in the long, historical perspective, people did virtually everything they do now, and to my knowledge, in nearly the same numbers. The author of that article needs to read "The Way We Never Were," by Professor Stephanie Koontz, of Evergreen State University (Basic Books, 1993.) She extensively researched records on birth patterns, family organization, etc going back to colonial days. The current out of wedlock birthrate hovers around 40% (and is dropping, as was pointed out.) In Puritan New England (no secularism, there) the illegitemacy rate was 33%. She has good data showing that the illegitemacy rate has fluctuated between 30 and 40 per cent for our entire history. Yes, STDs are a problem. But syphilis was estimated to affect fully 10% of the US population in 1900, and countless more had gonorrhea. A far higher incidence in the population that HIV/AIDS or chlamidia. (Syphilis was so common, that's why they used to require premarital blood tests in many states.) Pornography may have been kept under the counter, but prostitution was ubiquitous in most cities. It was reported that during the late 1800's, there was a brothel on virtually every street corner in Washington, DC. People have this nostalgic attitude about the past, but if you really look at the long perspective, I don't think there is a shred of credible evidence that we were so much more "moral" years ago. Mainly, it's more out in the open now. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

I agree completely! I seem to recall from one of my master's classes that one in ten houses in London circa 1890--prim, proper, Victorian London--housed a brothel. Take the underground tour of Seattle sometime--you can see the quarters that once housed prostitutes. Pornography was kept under the counter in this era mainly because of the difficulities in producing and distributing it, not becaue the interest wasn't there.

 

[Arikay]

Figured I would add another I agree to the thread.

The "good ol days" are often times that either the speaker didn't live in, or lived in so long ago they forgot the bad things.
I find it funny when people my age talk about how the world is going to hell and that we are closer to the edge of destruction than ever before with terrorist threats and such. Of course, none of us were around when the threat of nuclear attack was so real that schools did drop and cover drills. Now that the US and Russia are pretty much friends, we have discovered just how close we came to nuking each other. I would say minutes away from entire cities going boom is a bit closer to the edge of destruction than we are now.

 

[flicka]

"The good old days" are what people think life was like when they watch reruns of Leave it to Beaver on Nick at Night.

 

[jayem]

"The good old days" are what people think life was like when they watch reruns of Leave it to Beaver on Nick at Night.

Yeah, what could be better than the 50s, when TV couples slept in twin beds, and Lucy caused a minor scandal by saying the word "pregnant?" And it was just as unreal then as it seems now.

 

[flicka]

Yeah, what could be better than the 50s, when TV couples slept in twin beds, and Lucy caused a minor scandal by saying the word "pregnant?" And it was just as unreal then as it seems now.

I seriously think people today get their 'memories' about the 50's from tv. Yes it was unreal but people watching today don't seem to realize that they are watching fiction....reality tv wasn't around then!

 

[ACougar]

In 1996, the pregnancy rate for females 15 to 19 years of age in the United States was 83.6 per 1,000 compared to:9 1995-France20.2 per 1,0001996-Sweden25.0 per 1,0001995-Canada45.7 per 1,0001995-Great Britain46.7 per 1,000


http://www.siecus.org/pubs/fact/fact0010.html

Now it's hard to be certain what Focus on the Family considers Pagan, however when we compare U.S. pregnancy rates to such Heathen nations as France and Sweden we get an interesting result. Somehow I doubt France and Sweeden are teaching abstinence only programs.

I was reading an article on the Focus on the Family website about how there should be zero tolerance for anything other than programs that teach abstinence until marriage as the ONLY sex option. This article blames birth control, the media, organizations that spread awareness of AIDS/HIV prevention, and Pagans for the decline in sexual morals. It also says that pregnancy out of wedlock statistics have increased because pregnancy out of wedlock doesn't carry the "disgrace" it used to. Shame on Focus on the Family for publishing such garbage! The article is in a PDF format so I couldn't C&P the contents so if you're interested in reading this baloney it can be found at:

http://family.org/cforum/pdfs/fosi/abstinence/otv.pdf

 

[katherinethegreat]

In an Iraqi prison, Americans who were Christians forced Muslim males to have oral sex with other Muslim males. That, and other horrible acts were done because it amused the Americans. Prisoners were tortured, including having wires attched to their genitals. A boy was sodomized, prisoners were forced to eat pork and drink alcohol, forced to denounce their own faith, and were told that these deeds were in the name of Christ. Where were the Wiccans, where were the Pagans? Of course, it is all THEIR fault. By all means hang the Pagans, shoot the Wiccans, and the world will be pure.
Don't worry, for 'they' will enjoy it! Sure they will! You can't kill everyone of them, so the others will have to get busy making 'replacements'. They do like their sex orgee's, so replace they will. What Christian thoughtfullness, we could make it a crusade!

exactly lets hate the pagans cause they are more moral then us!

 

[Archivist]

Gotta love those pagans!

 

[Blissman]

Is it just me, or does anyone else get the impression that extreemists of any faith believe that God is Hate?

 

[transientlife]

Not just you, Bliss, not just you

 

[The Bellman]

Yeah, what could be better than the 50s, when TV couples slept in twin beds, and Lucy caused a minor scandal by saying the word "pregnant?" And it was just as unreal then as it seems now.

Actually (a bit of TV trivia for those interested) - when Lucille Ball was pregnant and they put it into the show I Love Lucy (with her character, Lucy, becoming pregnant), the US network censors debated long and hard over what words they could use on air to describe the character's condition. They ended up deciding that she could be said, during the show, to be "expecting" or to be "enciente" (French for pregnant, I believe) - but they couldn't actually say "pregnant". One of the more amusing bits of US censorship.

 

[ezikeeill]

i think that children should be taught all the facts - all of them - the gross ones, and the good ones - and let them decide from themselves...

Gods will will be seen in the truth.

gb all,

ezi...

 

[jayem]

Actually (a bit of TV trivia for those interested) - when Lucille Ball was pregnant and they put it into the show I Love Lucy (with her character, Lucy, becoming pregnant), the US network censors debated long and hard over what words they could use on air to describe the character's condition. They ended up deciding that she could be said, during the show, to be "expecting" or to be "enciente" (French for pregnant, I believe) - but they couldn't actually say "pregnant". One of the more amusing bits of US censorship.

Thanks for the reply. That's interesting, and I stand corrected. The tone of that FotF article suggests they want to go back to those days. As I see it, this whole thing is about Puritanism. Some people still have the attitude that any openess about sexuality is unwholesome. They blame Kinsey, and open discussion of sex for the sexual revolution of the 60s. I think it's much more likely that any loosening of sexual mores was really just a natural reaction to former years of repression. If the 50s were so great, then where did the 60s come from?

 

[flicka]

If the 50s were so great, then where did the 60s come from?

HAHA! I may just have to borrow that quote

 

[The-Doctor]

I don't think teaching abstinence is necescarily going to stop anyone doing it frankly.

 

[transientlife]

I don't think so either, Doc.

 

[Thithy]

I don't think it's fair to put the blame on the pagans for "our" (meaning people) problem with promiscuity. Although I personally believe in teaching abstinence. I've been taught abstinence for as long as I can remember and I do not feel that I am ignorant (maybe this is a mistake). I know the consequences for having sex, emotional and physical, even though I am not taught how to have "safe sex" (I put quotes because I believe the only safe sex is no sex before marriage). Yes we can try to blame the media for all of it, but I am not a hermit, I watch tv just like the next person, but you don't see me going out and having sex with every other person I meet. It's because we are not taught morals that there is such a problem in society. And I don't think that schools, media, or the old lady down the street should teach us, I think it should be family. Mainly parents.

 

[Thithy]

Also with birthcontrol, yes it makes women/young girls feel safer to have sex because then there is no risk of pregnancy, but it doesn't make us have sex. We still have sex, and I feel that just as many people would be having sex even if there wasn't birthcontrol (in the form of a pill). Besides, is it wrong for a married woman who doesn't want children (at the moment or ever) to take the pill?

 

[SallyNow]

One day many months ago I was searching for information on how to get more involved with Christianity. I stumbled on to family.org and thankfully realized they were just an conservative subgroup...

As for sexual activity...
-The current culture of commercialism DOES play a part in the early sexualization. It helps cause it, but it also helps showcase it. It's just wierd.
-Birth control pills *do* have other uses than *just* birth control. I take them for endometriosis. I guess I'm doing something wrong, too!

I find it odd that the very ones who support organizations such as family.org are also the ones who worship none other than the All Mighty Dollar and are in the media/big corp businesses that controls the current media, and the media's message about sex, lies, and violence. Is it just me, or is this a little hypocritical?

The line seems to be, support the system that creates the message, make money from it, but then blame everyone else...

Of course personal choice plays a part, but we are all people of our time.