Blame birth control and the Pagans

[msjones21]

I was reading an article on the Focus on the Family website about how there should be zero tolerance for anything other than programs that teach abstinence until marriage as the ONLY sex option. This article blames birth control, the media, organizations that spread awareness of AIDS/HIV prevention, and Pagans for the decline in sexual morals. It also says that pregnancy out of wedlock statistics have increased because pregnancy out of wedlock doesn't carry the "disgrace" it used to. Shame on Focus on the Family for publishing such garbage! The article is in a PDF format so I couldn't C&P the contents so if you're interested in reading this baloney it can be found at:

http://family.org/cforum/pdfs/fosi/abstinence/otv.pdf

 

[Volos]

And I thought is was narrow suffocating zealotry masquerading as morality that was to blame. And here all along it was my fault.



Not only does my religion cause women to become lesbians but it now causes unwanted pregnancies. (I’m guessing that all these teen age girls only choose to be lesbians after they get pregnant)

 

[msjones21]

Yeah, the blame rests upon all of us dirty, sexually immoral Pagans. Ya know, because we all encourage promiscuity and group orgies.

I guess being a bi-sexual Wiccan makes me a real winner in the eyes of Dr. Dobson and his crew.

 

[Volos]

Being a bisexual Wiccan is not what upsets Dr Dobson…it’s the fact that you are honest about the fact you are a bisexual Wiccan. If you would just lie about that he would greatly admire you.

 

[Annabel Lee]

Yes Ms.Jones, get back in the closet where you belong. I know it's hard to breathe and lonely in the closet but that can't be helped.

We must keep Dobson and his zealot cohorts happy..at all costs.

 

[transientlife]

What a bunch of swill, and I can say that with confidence without even reading it.

If you teach abstinence only, you're also promoting ignorance. What about those kids who decide to not wait till marriage---they will be uneducated about everything that could face them should they decide to have premarital sex.' Then I say let it be on those 'abstinence-only' teachers' heads for not making them aware of how to be safe when they end up with some disease. Teach abstinence is best, but safe sex also. Maybe in a utopian society abstinence-only would be great, but not in the real world. The world is not ideal, not by a long shot. Why pretend it is to our kids' detriment, as far as health? Heaven forbid we make people AWARE of AIDS/HIV, I didn't realize it made them more susceptible, I thought it was to have to opposite effect. And as far as birthcontrol...seems you're darned if you do, darned if you don't. Take birth control - prevents pregnancy, no abortion, but blasted for having sex in the first place or the pill inadvertently causing the abortion anyway (which I think is a stretch because medical evidence is fairly inconclusive) Have sex, no pill, get pregnant, get an abortion and your touted as a selfish,irresponsible murderer. Or have sex, get pregnant, keep kid, breakup with boyfriend/husband and get blasted for not having an intact, ideal family and being a burden to the rest of us taxpayers if you have to accept welfare to support yourself and the kid.
And blaming Pagans for sexual moral decline...how about we take some responsibility for OURSELVES instead of passing blame around to a specific group. I don't see Pagans kidnapping people and forcing them to be sexually 'immoral'. Ugh. No, wait, not just "ugh"..ARGH!
The only thing I semi-agree with is children out of wedlock--I think it is better to have two PEOPLE (note I didn't say man and woman only ) in a legally committed relationship to raise a kid, and that kid come after the relationship is official and (hopefully) strong enough to withstand the introduction of a child. But that's just my opinion.

 

[jingwei]

I see nothing wrong with the article. It's simply statement of the Christian belief.

You people DO encourage promiscuity and orgies. It's called Westernism.

 

[transientlife]

Pagans aren't just in America, jingwei.

It is a statement of Christian beliefs, no problem there, but when it shifts unfair blame and makes erroneous claims is when I have a problem with it.

 

[jingwei]

No, it shifts nothing. You people are just afraid to take the blame.

When China was a Communist dicatorship, things were actually morally better until Western culture inflitrated it. Or at least modern American pop culture.
All traditional cultures in asia and Europe forbids these things.

 

[transientlife]

First things first, You people, very nice jingwei.

Secondly, if you hadn't noticed, I'm not a pagan or wiccan, I'm a christian.

Well I agree pop culture is like sugar, bad for everyone. But if you consume it, you only have yourself to blame for your choices, no one forced you to consume it.

 

[jingwei]

You people. WHat was wrong with "you people"? I'm pointing at you.
Second, if you went to the military section of this forum, there are CHristians who support killing, who go as far as to say God support war, evil, and rebellion. Being CHristian makes no difference.
No one forced? Ever heard of Britney Spears songs? Backstreetboys? Limp Bizkit? It's called advanced media propaganda designed for maximum forced consumerism effeciency.
Again, how seom people blame CHristians for making the teen more interested in "having fun"? Lap dances? Shrooms? Raves?
To quote Joseph Stalin: "America is a healthy body with an immune system. It is its nationalism and morality. Break down either one, and the body will crumble."

 

[transientlife]

You people. WHat was wrong with "you people"? I'm pointing at you.

"You people" is a degrading way of talking to someone, talking down to them.

Second, if you went to the military section of this forum, there are CHristians who support killing, who go as far as to say God support war, evil, and rebellion. Being CHristian makes no difference.

I was referring to the idea that Pagans are causing the sexual morality decline and your response that "you people DO cause orgies and promiscuity" I've never seen a Pagan-forced orgy before, might be quite interesting.

No one forced? Ever heard of Britney Spears songs? Backstreetboys? Limp Bizkit? It's called advanced media propaganda designed for maximum forced consumerism effeciency.

It's called turn the radio off or don't buy the cd...I don't listen to any of them, I don't see anyone forcing me to listen to it, either. It only works if you are a gullible consumer . Last I knew, no one was forced to listen to anything they don't want to.

Again, how seom people blame CHristians for making the teen more interested in "having fun"?

What, you promote an Amish lifestyle? Wait, no, even amish have fun, they have dances...I don't see anyone blaming christians for making teens more interesting in having fun. I wouldn't relegate it to their religious background, I'd determine it upon the PERSON.

Lap dances?

Someone's choice to participate in

Shrooms?

Personal choice, a bad one, IMO, but personal choice nonetheless

Raves?

Oh, once again, personal choice

To quote Joseph Stalin: "America is a healthy body with an immune system. It is its nationalism and morality. Break down either one, and the body will crumble."

Same could be said for any society.

 

[jingwei]

It's still media enforced. These "personal" choices are targeted at young people helped by extreme amounts of peer pressure.
I don't promote the Amish lifestyle even though I respect it trememndously.
"Same could be said for any society."
No difference. It's stil said about America, and the body is falling sick before your eyes.

 

[Rae]

Well, you know, Ms. Jones ... it's a lot easier than blaming themselves. It's just like the 9/11 condemnations by Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, blaming anyone who held beliefs they didn't like, rather than taking a long, hard look at their religion and people like them to see if they had any guilt. Much easier to blame the Pagans when things go wrong, even though there are maybe 5-6 million worldwide as opposed to 2 billion Christians ...

 

[Fiendishjester]

All traditional cultures in asia and Europe forbids these things.

I'd have to disagree with you here, Jingwei. Let's take the three largest and most influential cultures in Asia, the Indian, the Chinese, and the Japanese. Before Western infiltration, all of these countries did not experience any shortage of sex, or at least no less than after Western infiltration.

First, India. India was most definitely not sexually repressed, producing such things as the Kama Sutra, and the temple at Kajuraho (a giant temple dedicated to sex, filled with paintings, carvings, and statues of different positions.)

I'll do China and Japan together, since their conditions were quite similar (though I am not trying to essentialize them at all, or to make generalizations.) In both empires, polygamy was rampant, especially among those of higher class (who set the standards for everyone else). Prostitution and the keeping of concubines were practices that flourished throughout all the ages. This does not point to a society in which promiscuity was forbidden, in any way. All these societies did was to cover them up by making it socially unnacceptable to talk about them or mention them in public. The practices themselves, however, were commonplace and widely accepted.

 

[Arikay]

I may be getting my religious extremist anti gay groups mixed up, but I believe Focus on the Family is the group that is run by an scientist who is no longer accepted as a scientist because he was caught faking data.

I always find it interesting that certain people and groups often beat people over the head with the certain bible verses, yet completly fail to read parts of the bible, like about the plank in their own eye.

 

[jingwei]

Yes, the plank. To my disappointment almost all CHristians I know barely follows it. It then becomes their own fault and their own choosing. If a Christian familty fails to do their duty of protecting their children from these things, it is also their fault. However, children and youngster cannot run away from social pressures.
Jester, you're doing me a favor here. You're talking about the pagan cultures in ancient Asia. Because of their paganism, it was accepted for these things to happen.
However, after the social reform in these nations, their family values have become increasingly stressed upon. I would know because I came from asia. And if you did drugs or had premarital sex, your parents would pratically disown you.

 

[Arikay]

It seems like you changed your mind,
First you said "All traditional cultures in asia and Europe forbids these thing"
Now after it was shown to be false you say,
"You're talking about the pagan cultures in ancient Asia. Because of their paganism, it was accepted for these things to happen."

So, um, which is it, you can't have it both ways. Traditional paganism in asian can't be both moral and immoral about the same issue at the same time.

 

[jingwei]

The traditional culture taught against these things, but people saw lightly of them because of paganism. Modern social reform enforced the traditional culture because of the elimination of paganism.

 

[Arikay]

Now im lost, so maybe you can define some terms,
What is,
Traditional culture
Paganism

?

The traditional culture taught against these things, but people saw lightly of them because of paganism. Modern social reform enforced the traditional culture because of the elimination of paganism.