Birth Control

[AMM]

LCMS put out a document a while back. Can't find it now. EDIT: Saw it linked above.

It essentially says barrier methods are OK. Other methods (the pill, IUD, ETC) may allow conception to happen then "end it" (crass way to put that, sorry).

if anything, I took that as a condemnation of abortifacients rather than an endorsement of barrier methods

and it's always important to remember that "ok" and "good" are two very different things. Yes there may be times when, with pastoral guidance, a couple is permitted to use barriers, but children are always a blessing of the Lord and not using contraceptives of any kind is certainly more in line with God's holy will

 

[TKA_TN]

if anything, I took that as a condemnation of abortifacients rather than an endorsement of barrier methods

and it's always important to remember that "ok" and "good" are two very different things. Yes there may be times when, with pastoral guidance, a couple is permitted to use barriers, but children are always a blessing of the Lord and not using contraceptives of any kind is certainly more in line with God's holy will

I tend to agree.

 

[FaithT]

LCMS put out a document a while back. Can't find it now. EDIT: Saw it linked above.

It essentially says barrier methods are OK. Other methods (the pill, IUD, ETC) may allow conception to happen then "end it" (crass way to put that, sorry).

That makes sense.

 

[Karin12414]

You're right. It wouldn't be productive to argue. Hopefully you'll think about what I've said - my two points being, first that often it's not God people are listening to. Instead, they fool themselves into thinking their own wishes have come from God. Second, listening to the Christian community God has given you is not a bad thing. God speaks through people, flawed as they may be.

I understand and I agree that He uses people, but we aren't supposed to go to them first, we are to go to them if we cannot find the answer between us and God, which is what Hope did, and is totally encouraged.

Again, I didn't mean to come off as if it didn't matter. It matters a lot, it's just that Society still struggles with equal treatment and judgement when it comes to Women and their bodies. My goal was to be encouraging in a way where Hope could feel secure and supported in her decision, whatever it may be.

But I apologize for getting it somewhat off topic lol Like I said, I didn't see it was a Denomination specific post. I just responded woman to woman

 

[Resha Caner]

I understand and I agree that He uses people, but we aren't supposed to go to them first, we are to go to them if we cannot find the answer between us and God, which is what Hope did, and is totally encouraged.

Oh, so close. Should I let this go? I probably should, but … as long as we can keep it friendly ...

Where does the Bible say we must always go to God first? Of course you should pray often, and there is nothing wrong with going to God first, but … I should introduce you to the Lutheran idea of vocation. God's will was to put you here specifically for the purpose of doing something. If God put you here to do something, why would I go to God for that thing instead of you?

Again, I didn't mean to come off as if it didn't matter. It matters a lot, it's just that Society still struggles with equal treatment and judgement when it comes to Women and their bodies. My goal was to be encouraging in a way where Hope could feel secure and supported in her decision, whatever it may be.

Mmm. And here we need to talk about authority. No doubt history is full of the horrible treatment of women, and that makes it tough to make a case for authority. But the Biblical case is still there.
I have no direct authority over you and your decisions. I don't know you. But as fellow citizens of the U.S. who both vote for our lawmakers, I do have a say in what's legal and what's not, just as you do. There are similar connections and dependencies between boss/employee, parent/child, husband/wife. If you live in a community, your life is never entirely yours. If you belong to Christ, it is not yours.

 

[Karin12414]

Where does the Bible say we must always go to God first? Of course you should pray often, and there is nothing wrong with going to God first, but … I should introduce you to the Lutheran idea of vocation. God's will was to put you here specifically for the purpose of doing something. If God put you here to do something, why would I go to God for that thing instead of you?

You may make your plans, but God directs your actions. (Proverbs 16:9)

But if any of you lack wisdom, you should pray to God, who will give it to you; because God gives generously and graciously to all. (James 1:5)

Call to me, and I will answer you; I will tell you wonderful and marvelous things that you know nothing about. (Jeremiah 33:3)

But the wisdom from above is pure first of all; it is also peaceful, gentle, and friendly; it is full of compassion and produces a harvest of good deeds; it is free from prejudice and hypocrisy. (James 3:17)

If you wander off the road to the right or the left, you will hear his voice behind you saying, “Here is the road. Follow it.” (Isaiah 30:21)

I have the strength to face all conditions by the power that Christ gives me. (Philippians 4:13)

Do not conform yourselves to the standards of this world, but let God transform you inwardly by a complete change of your mind. Then you will be able to know the will of God—what is good and is pleasing to him and is perfect. (Romans 12:2)

Those are the verses that come to mind anyways. Again, I am not saying that we shouldn't go to people ever. That's what our Church Community if for, but we are supposed to go to God first. Otherwise, it seems like you are putting more trust in man than God himself. What need do you have for God if you can just go to people with all your problems and trust them to "give you the answer" and not Him?

This may just be a denominational difference, but it seems a little off to me personally. I don't want to get in trouble for discussing different denominations, so I am done discussing this particular part.

Mmm. And here we need to talk about authority. No doubt history is full of the horrible treatment of women, and that makes it tough to make a case for authority. But the Biblical case is still there.
I have no direct authority over you and your decisions. I don't know you. But as fellow citizens of the U.S. who both vote for our lawmakers, I do have a say in what's legal and what's not, just as you do. There are similar connections and dependencies between boss/employee, parent/child, husband/wife. If you live in a community, your life is never entirely yours. If you belong to Christ, it is not yours.

It is not Illegal (as far as I know) to use contraception in America, and I have not read or heard of any law against it in the Bible either. Closest thing I can think of is the sin of Onan, and that still doesn't sound like it's about contraceptives, but about Onan not taking his responsibility in his role seriously. So I'm not totally sure how this part is relevant, sorry..

Please feel free to clarify.

 

[AMM]

I have not read or heard of any law against it in the Bible either. Closest thing I can think of is the sin of Onan, and that still doesn't sound like it's about contraceptives, but about Onan not taking his responsibility in his role seriously.

1900 years of church tradition interpreted the account of Onan, and the numerous commands, "be fruitful and multiply" as being instructions against birth control

 

[tampasteve]

.

 

[tampasteve]

I understand and I agree that He uses people, but we aren't supposed to go to them first, we are to go to them if we cannot find the answer between us and God, which is what Hope did, and is totally encouraged.

Again, I didn't mean to come off as if it didn't matter. It matters a lot, it's just that Society still struggles with equal treatment and judgement when it comes to Women and their bodies. My goal was to be encouraging in a way where Hope could feel secure and supported in her decision, whatever it may be.

But I apologize for getting it somewhat off topic lol Like I said, I didn't see it was a Denomination specific post. I just responded woman to woman

1900 years of church tradition interpreted the account of Onan, and the numerous commands, "be fruitful and multiply" as being instructions against birth control

As was noted earlier in the thread:

Please note that only Lutherans are allowed to teach in this forum. Please keep posts to questions or fellowship.

 

[AMM]

As was noted earlier in the thread:

Please note that only Lutherans are allowed to teach in this forum. Please keep posts to questions or fellowship.

my apologies - I grew up LCMS and had come to these beliefs on birth control (an almost complete 180 turn from how I used to feel and believe about it) while still solidly a Lutheran after an intense few months of looking at the history and reading Luther's works, old LCMS documents, and patristic studies of the subject. This was a couple years before I even looked into Orthodoxy. I only just converted to EO a bit over a year ago. I believed I was conveying the Lutheran stance on the subject. Forgive me for speaking out of place.

"I have often regretted the things I have said, but I have never regretted my silence" - St. Arsenius

 

[tampasteve]

I only just converted to EO a bit over a year ago. I believed I was conveying the Lutheran stance on the subject. Forgive me for speaking out of place.

I know you recently converted, no problem. I have always valued your opinion and point of view in threads, CF needs members like you (and everyone in this thread IMO). I also have to be careful as, though I am Lutheran, I am not LCMS/WELS/ELS.