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Birth control.

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benedictaoo

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I understand that, but (without trying to be graphic) I've also heard many priests talk about how other "forms" of sex acts in marriage are okay as long as they aren't degrading....so does that essentially mean it's okay but then you have to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] inside the wife? Sorry just trying to understand

As to which acts are okay and not, well, depends on who you ask, which priest/theologian. They all seem to have their own ideas to what is okay and not. But in any event, what ever the act, it must, it has to, no two ways about it, it has to end with [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] inside the wife. Period. The act as to be open to at least the possibility of life, even if you do not want it to happen... putting on a condom is not being open to at least that possibility. Not having sex when you are fertile, IMO only is not being open either but that is where the teaching goes much deeper. You are permitted to not get pregnant if for legitimate reasons you can't, you just can not do anything mechanical to the act itself to accomplish that.

People do not understand this but the sin of contraception and not being open to life is two fold. It is not one dimension. Its both/and the means we use and, together, it's the attitude, the belief that every act must be open if it were to happen, even if your very life is on the line. So even if you are infertile and can not conceive, you have to be open to accepting life if it were to happen. If you are fertile and use NFP and do all the right things physically, if you do them for the wrong reason, you are in sin to certain extent.
 
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benedictaoo

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Okay, so going based off what you said, NFP would be an appropriate option available for married couples? (I've seen Catholic-sponsored videos promoting NFP, so I'm guessing that it must be somewhat agree upon)

It's the only option frankly and if that doesn't work for a couple because of biological factors (like the woman can not be charted, etc) then the couple is pretty much screwed, excuse the pun. Here is where the rubber meets the road, excuse the pun again. Some will say that is where it's pastoral, you go to your priest and he tells you what to do and handles it on a one on one basis but the reality is, in Catholicism we do not have this concept of "economia".

In Catholic moral theology there is just no wiggle room for this. It's total abstinence or you keep having children. Now there are some lope holes, like "for the good of marriage" where if you are married to a person who refuses to do NFP and keeps using contraceptives, you aren't obligated to refuse them sex if that can lead to divorce. It's their sin, not yours. This is where the attitude of being open to life comes into play. Like I said, it's a two fold thing. Even if the other spouse takes birth control pills or wears a condom, it's them doing it, not you. You are open to life but they aren't so you are okay but you can't just kick back and enjoy the "get out of jail free card". You have to be worried about your spouse endangered soul because at this point, they are probably going to hell so you pray for the spouse and gently try to get them to convert over time.

Now, where it really gets screwed up, you can go into any random parish in the country (U.S.A.) and you may hear the truth... or not. There are a lot of priests out there who will tell you, you do not have to be open to life if you can't. They will tell you to use even artificial birth control pill, despite the fact that they can act as an abortifant . There are very few who will tell you that even if you are one of those woman who are high risk of losing their life, they will tell you the only option is abstinence. No, you can not be sterilized.

Now, here is where it really gets screwed up even more... lets say your husband has had vasectomy years ago and now he sees the light. Has this big conversion experience and wants to live the Catholic life down to the last letter, to a "T". Well, he has been fixed, a major no-no to Catholic married couples. It's a sin to have deliberately done surgical sterilized sex. So what's a newly converted, seeing the light Catholic husband to do? he can have that vasectomy reversed, if he's seen the light and all... but he does not have to... All he has to do is repent, be really sorry he is fixed, confess the vasectomy and he can have all the sex he wants. But the coupe who always seen the light, they have to abstain for the rest of their young lives. So that is where a lot of devoted Catholics struggle with this big time. The rules doesn't seen to apply evenly. Some are off the hook while others are held to the highest of standards. So we do have a sense of "econemia" after all but what we can not do in any uncertain terms is get surgery or use any kinds of ABC, so you know what? You figure it out because I can't.
 
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benedictaoo

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Yes The Fire Rises, NFP is at present the most encouraged method of spacing births when necessary.

Kurama: Correction.

Not every sex act has to be done just for procreation. Procreation is part of it, but not the only part. The important thing is that we ourselves don't place any direct obstacle in the way of procreation occurring where it would naturally otherwise. That is why methods like NFP acknowledge the use of naturally occurring infertile periods as a licit means of spacing births.

The correct way to put this is the act has to have both elements to it. They are there together as one. Not two separate purposes standing on their own.

Unity and procreating. You can not have sex just for unity without procreation. That is the whole entire reason why contraceptives and surgeries are absolutely unacceptable. We have sex for closeness because that is how human beings are but you can never at any time not be open to life when you have sex for closeness. Even if pregnancy is impossible due to being post menopausal. You still have to be open to life if it were to happen. You can never have sex if you aren't going to be accepting to life if it were to happen.
 
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benedictaoo

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I was told it was if it is not taken too far with the male. I even had a priest tell me one time that some women cannot [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] any other way. Without some manual stimulation. It can even be done during intercourse. But it must end where the couple is open to life.

The wife can achieve it by way of the husband's manual stimulation at any time before, during or after, as long as it's all part of the overall act that is taking place at that time. AS long as the husband ends it the way it's supposed to be ended, it's all good.
 
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benedictaoo

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Choosing to be childfree - actively choosing to not have children - is a violation of marriage vows. So not only would a childfree couple be in mortal sin (for not being open to life but having sex), but their marriage would also be invalid and not sacramental.

BAM! and grounds for annulment... Now we are getting to the nitty- gritty of it all. How Catholics do it. How we are able to get around all these rules.
 
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MikeK

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Except for when you escape them.

Righto! The Catholic has an interesting option if they are too afraid to routinely have intercourse with their spouse, masturbation. The trick is, you gotta get yourself hooked, preferably when you're young. Rare masturbation by choice might cause you to BURN FOREVER, but if you touch by habit or compulsion, you have reduced your culpability for the act, perhaps even completely. If you're going to touch and be a Catholic, you gotta go big. THE RULES.
 
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Irenaeus

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The Catholic has an interesting option if they are too afraid to routinely have intercourse with their spouse, masturbation.

There is also the even more interesting option of acquiring the necessary self-control and chastity so that that doesn't have to happen.
 
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benedictaoo

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Masturbation in the context of marriage? You are adding in another piece to this puzzle, aren't you?

I prefer the, "get fixed early in life" option better. Get it done when you're young, before you knew any better. So when you know better, it's too late. You can spend your life with regret and be broken hearted that you did what you did. All the free and clear sex just won't be the same.
 
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MikeK

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Masturbation in the context of marriage? You are adding in another piece to this puzzle, aren't you?

I prefer the, "get fixed early in life" option better. Get it done when you're young, before you knew any better. So when you know better, it's too late. You can spend your life with regret and be broken hearted that you did what you did. All the free and clear sex just won't be the same.

Sex without fear? What would that be like? It would almost be a mutually enjoyable act rather than a primal itch scratching when your resolve runs out, followed by several weeks of hoping that God won't Bless you with yet another child that you aren't equipped to care for.

The "get fixed" option has traditionally been quite popular on OBOB among the "you mustn't contracept!" crowd. Remember the time I offered to pay to reverse JackTheCatholic's vasectomy and he turned it down? Good times.
 
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benedictaoo

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There is also the even more interesting option of acquiring the necessary self-control and chastity so that that doesn't have to happen.

Except for when they fail. Even Jesus fell under the sheer weight of His cross.

Stress, weakness, long term heaviness of carrying this burden of habit, they all diminish the culpability.
 
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Irenaeus

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Except for when they fail. Even Jesus fell under the sheer weight of His cross.

Jesus falling under the weight of the cross and we falling because of our moral weakness are different "fallings" both in kind and in fact.

If we fall, it's important to get up and try again, not attack the teachings of Christ.

Stress, weakness, long term heaviness of carrying this burden of habit, they all diminish the culpability.

Of course it does. But that's not what I read in the last few posts between you guys.
 
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MikeK

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When the "hooked" person masturbates, God seems to react with a "meh, he/she is hooked. Poor thing. Not their fault." When the non-hooked person falls, God seems to react with a "They better hope they don't have a fatal aneurism before they get to Confession, because that's ETERNAL TORTURE."
 
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benedictaoo

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Isn't this unnecessarily sarcastic? Do you feel it is necessary to make light of the Church's teachings?

No, baby... what I feel necessary is letting every one here know that it is in no way, shape, or form as easy or black and white as everyone here tries to make it out to be.

The teaching is there, it is what it is and it is wonderful because it's God's awesome teaching. However, comma, unless you and your spouse are one hundred and million percent on board, together , as one down with this teaching it will never in a million trillion, bazillion years ever work. Over time the marriage will fail under the stress of the high expectations that are put on each spouse.

So at the end of the day, at the end of the story, it goes like this; We as the imperfect people we are can only do what we are capable of doing. We can only do our imperfect best and leave the rest for God to judge. He knows us. He knows what we can and can not do. Understand this; Rejecting the standard and never being able to even come close to meeting the standard are two entirely different things.
 
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MikeK

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Irenaeus, have you defeated the demons of lust in your life, to the point that you do not succumb to temptation to sin? Bene and I know a thing or two about marriage and following THE RULES. We do a disservice to other couples when we lie about how satisfying not having sex with our spouses is. The loudest proponents of a non-contraceptive lifestyle on here have traditionally been people who could not hack it themselves.

If we sound cynical it is only because shamefully dishonest people are selling young Catholics a lie about the miraculous joys and graces that come with periodic abstinence.
 
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benedictaoo

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When the "hooked" person masturbates, God seems to react with a "meh, he/she is hooked. Poor thing. Not their fault." When the non-hooked person falls, God seems to react with a "They better hope they don't have a fatal aneurism before they get to Confession, because that's ETERNAL TORTURE."

No. If you have a fatal aneurism before you get to confession, but you intended to go, you are as good as confessed. What you better hope for is you sincerely being sorry.
 
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MikeK

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No. If you have a fatal aneurism before you get to confession, but you intended to go, you are as good as confessed. What you better hope for is you sincerely being sorry.

I don't think that forgiveness if you intended to confess is de fide. Certainly many have guessed that to be the case, and certainly if you have perfect contrition you would be forgiven. I don't know that the mere intent to confess is enough. I don't think we'll have that answer until we meet Him.
 
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benedictaoo

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Jesus falling under the weight of the cross and we falling because of our moral weakness are different "fallings" both in kind and in fact.

Not really, no. We fail because we are human and weak. Jesus failed because He shared in our humanity. This is humanity, this is us. Weak and frail, prone to failure..

If we fall, it's important to get up and try again, not attack the teachings of Christ.
Of course, where I said we don't?


Of course it does. But that's not what I read in the last few posts between you guys.

Well, you're not reading right.
 
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benedictaoo

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I don't think that forgiveness if you intended to confess is de fide. Certainly many have guessed that to be the case, and certainly if you have perfect contrition you would be forgiven. I don't know that the mere intent to confess is enough. I don't think we'll have that answer until we meet Him.

no, it is. but you intending to go but not being able to make it for legitimate reasons is different from you intending to go but the game is on so you are going to sit this one out.
 
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