Birth control.

[Michie]

...

Sorry Michie, but that was a nice burn. No hard feelings.

How is that satellite internet coming along?

I've been too busy with shows to be able to check into it. I've got several options on the table but probably won't get to them till late fall.

 

[Irenaeus]

Is that the official stance of the church? I mean, could I go find it in the catechism right now if I wanted to?

Because I've seen other people on here condemning NFP (I'm not sure if it was this thread or not)

The Fire Rises, I only ever promote the official teaching of the Church. All of the preambles of what I say may not be in the Catechism, but the understandings are there.

NFP is accepted by the Church, in all its forms. I haven't heard of one yet that isn't.

 

[Michie]

For some reason when I read that, I thought of the stone television they have in the Flintstones.

(assuming you know what a television is. I don't want to overwhelm you with information)

You're cruising friend!

 

[Michie]

Just an aside (still looking through my papers) but I found a note that oral sex is ok within marriage as long as the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] goes in the vagina. You can foreplay your brains out but in the end the sex act must not close itself to the possibility of life. Becoming Catholic you must promise to be open to life. No degradation such as finishing somewhere else on or in the body or masturbating to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. Hope that as not too graphic but we had a huge discussion on this in RCIA. Catholics can still have their fun except when you are not ready to take a chance on pregnancy that month. That's where NFP comes into the picture.

 

[Irenaeus]

Michie,

Just an aside (still looking through my papers) but I found a note that oral sex is ok within marriage as long as the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] goes in the vagina. You can foreplay your brains out but in the end the sex act must not close itself to the possibility of life. Becoming Catholic you must promise to be open to life. No degradation such as finishing somewhere else on or in the body or masturbating to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. Hope that as not too graphic but we had a huge discussion on this in RCIA. Catholics can still have their fun except when you are not ready to take a chance on pregnancy that month. That's where NFP comes into the picture.

This is true, but I think the discussion is beginning to shift because biologically speaking (not to be graphic) there is pre-[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] which carries with it some sperm. I'm not so sure in this case that oral sex even can be said to be OK.

 

[Michie]

Michie,



This is true, but I think the discussion is beginning to shift because biologically speaking (not to be graphic) there is pre-[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] which carries with it some sperm. I'm not so sure in this case that oral sex even can be said to be OK.

I was told it was if it is not taken too far with the male. I even had a priest tell me one time that some women cannot [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] any other way. Without some manual stimulation. It can even be done during intercourse. But it must end where the couple is open to life.

 

[Irenaeus]

Ok, that makes sense.

 

[Michie]

I'm curious, those past child bearing years or are infertile... do these rules still apply? We never discussed that.

 

[MikeK]

I'm curious, those past child bearing years or are infertile... do these rules still apply? We never discussed that.

Yes. There is no escaping THE RULES.

 

[Rhamiel]

But there is some Biblical foundation to this issue, is there not? The story of Onan?

very good, Onan is a good place to start with the understanding of why contraception is bad

another way to do is to compare sex to eating
we can just live on bread and water and a multivitamen pill, but that is borring, so it is not wrong to enjoy good food
just as it is not wrong to enjoy sex

but both of them should be properly ordered

contraception, even just condoms, is like bulimeia, you enjoy the act but you are not getting the natural good that comes from the act

 

[The Fire Rises]

I'm very glad that the Church accepts NFP, but frankly I still don't see how using a system to deliberately avoid pregnancy does not qualify as another "obstacle" that is put in the way of creating life?

Condoms and pills are bad because they are deliberate means of reducing the possibility of life, right? But NFP's one and only goal is just that, to significantly decrease the possiblity of creating life, as in you are deliberately following a "monthly plan" to make sure that you can satisfy your desires without the possibility of having a child. The method is different, but the motive is the exact same, is it not?

Again, I'm not against NFP, but part of me thinks, "If the Church allows and promotes a program that shows people how to avoid creating life, how is simply using a condom any different?"

Maybe I'm just confused : l

 

[Michie]

I'm very glad that the Church accepts NFP, but frankly I still don't see how using a system to deliberately avoid pregnancy does not qualify as another "obstacle" that is put in the way of creating life?

Condoms and pills are bad because they are deliberate means of reducing the possibility of life, right? But NFP's one and only goal is just that, to significantly decrease the possiblity of creating life, as in you are deliberately following a "monthly plan" to make sure that you can satisfy your desires without the possibility of having a child. The method is different, but the motive is the exact same, is it not?

Again, I'm not against NFP, but part of me thinks, "If the Church allows and promotes a program that shows people how to avoid creating life, how is simply using a condom any different?"

Maybe I'm just confused : l

I think it is more about taking a natural route & being open to God's will at all times. Even when we are trying to avoid it. It's just about being open to His will. Not purposely blocking it through unnatural means. There have been many people here that followed NFP & became pregnant anyway. Not exactly what they wanted but they were faithful to what was expected of them.

I have fertility issues & I'm only familiar with the flip side of the coin. Trying to get pregnant. I think your best bet is calling a priest & having him refer you to an NFP instructor.

 

[Rhamiel]

I'm curious, those past child bearing years or are infertile... do these rules still apply? We never discussed that.

well if they weren't followed, we would never had St.John the Baptist or Issac

 

[Rhamiel]

I'm very glad that the Church accepts NFP, but frankly I still don't see how using a system to deliberately avoid pregnancy does not qualify as another "obstacle" that is put in the way of creating life?

Condoms and pills are bad because they are deliberate means of reducing the possibility of life, right? But NFP's one and only goal is just that, to significantly decrease the possiblity of creating life, as in you are deliberately following a "monthly plan" to make sure that you can satisfy your desires without the possibility of having a child. The method is different, but the motive is the exact same, is it not?

Again, I'm not against NFP, but part of me thinks, "If the Church allows and promotes a program that shows people how to avoid creating life, how is simply using a condom any different?"

Maybe I'm just confused : l

a lot of people agree with you
this is NOT a popular teaching in the Catholic Church
a lot of married Catholics ignore it all together

I would compare NFP to a diet
and condoms to bulemia

both are too loose weight
one is healthy and natural
the other is destructive and unnatural

 

[Michie]

a lot of people agree with you
this is NOT a popular teaching in the Catholic Church
a lot of married Catholics ignore it all together

I would compare NFP to a diet
and condoms to bulemia

both are too loose weight
one is healthy and natural
the other is destructive and unnatural

Interesting analogy.

 

[The Fire Rises]

a lot of people agree with you
this is NOT a popular teaching in the Catholic Church
a lot of married Catholics ignore it all together

I would compare NFP to a diet
and condoms to bulemia

both are too loose weight
one is healthy and natural
the other is destructive and unnatural

In what way do they disagree with the teaching?

Do they think they should be able to used contraceptives as well, or do they think that even NFP should not be allowed?

 

[The Fire Rises]

Also, if practicing Catholics blatantly disregard a teaching set forth by the Church, are they still considered to be "practicing Catholics"? What would be the point of rules if members can pick and choose which ones they happen to agree with?

 

[Michie]

In what way do they disagree with the teaching?

Do they think they should be able to used contraceptives as well, or do they think that even NFP should not be allowed?

I think some see it as hypocritical. Allowing NFP & not allowing condoms. Most understand not taking the pill, etc.

 

[Michie]

Also, if practicing Catholics blatantly disregard a teaching set forth by the Church, are they still considered to be "practicing Catholics"?

No not sincere ones anyway. That's where the term Cafeteria catholic originated I think.

What would be the point of rules if members can pick and choose which ones they happen to agree with?

As Scripture states, wheat grows with the chaff. The Lord is the one that will separate. Just because people do not follow the teachings of the Church it does not give one reason to take the truth of the table. We hear about those that do not follow more than those that actually do.

 

[The Fire Rises]

I think some see it as hypocritical. Allowing NFP & not allowing condoms. Most understand not taking the pill, etc.

Right, taking the pill is just a pretty bad idea all around, whether you're part of the Church or not. It can lead to many health complications for the female, leaving permanent damage, even cancer.

Here is how one of the popes described NFP:

“The choice of the natural rhythms involves accepting the cycle of the person, that is, the woman, and thereby accepting dialogue, reciprocal respect, shared responsibility and self-control…. In this context the couple comes to experience how conjugal communion is enriched with those values of tenderness and affection which constitute the inner soul of human sexuality, in its physical dimension also. In this way sexuality is respected and promoted in its truly and fully human dimension”(Pope John Paul II, Familiaris consortio, 32).


I think this is a pretty solid explanation. A big reason is that often when contraceptives become a part of the marriage, it becomes terribly easy for someone to view their spouse as little more than a sex toy. In a video I watched, it said the divorce rate for those who use contraceptives is roughly 50%, while the rate of those who use NFP is less than 2%.