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Birth control.

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Michie

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and then you say that our witness sucks? Mike is right, you promote feelgoodolgy. That is not Catholic. so do not say I am a bad witness when I tell people the truth and the reality.
You were not here when I said that so that's impossible. The witness here does stink most of the time in favor of arguments. I didn't not mention you.
 
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Michie

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I'll own what I said.

I don't believe some of the more outlandish "visions" of some of the saints. If they say stuff that clearly goes against the Bible, or Tradition, then I don't see much use for it. Doesn't mean that the saint didn't live a godly and holy life. Just means that I'll stick to the spirituality that moves me.
You must be some sort of heretic.
 
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Gwendolyn

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The reality is that every Catholic experiences things differently. Some people find faith and are filled with love and peace and charity. For others, faith comes at a hefty price, full of suffering and sadness. I guess the only important thing is that you are faithful in the end. Don't discount some people's experiences just because yours have been relatively happy.

I started out with great joy. I was a teen feeling neglected and so lonely I felt a physical ache for camaraderie. I found a companion in Christ. I studied the faith. I got a BA in theology. Eventually I couldn't handle the burden of knowledge. I was happy when I was ignorant, and I was happy even when I began to learn more and had the ability to correct myself. Somewhere along the line it just became too much. My mental health collapsed and with it my faith disappeared.

Suffering is part of faith. I don't share my experiences to say, "stay away from Christ, it's all awful". I share them to say that you can be miserable, suffering, and in pain but still have some vague desire to seek God. Even if that pain never goes away, you still have to be faithful to what you know to be right. And doing the right thing is often painful because we are fallen and we want all the wrong things.

Even though I find myself without faith now, I want it to come back. That's why I hang around. But I'm not going to whitewash what I've gone through just because it doesn't sound very nice. Some people just don't have an easy time with faith and that's the truth.
 
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Michie

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The reality is that every Catholic experiences things differently. Some people find faith and are filled with love and peace and charity. For others, faith comes at a hefty price, full of suffering and sadness. I guess the only important thing is that you are faithful in the end. Don't discount some people's experiences just because yours have been relatively happy.

I started out with great joy. I was a teen feeling neglected and so lonely I felt a physical ache for camaraderie. I found a companion in Christ. I studied the faith. I got a BA in theology. Eventually I couldn't handle the burden of knowledge. I was happy when I was ignorant, and I was happy even when I began to learn more and had the ability to correct myself. Somewhere along the line it just became too much. My mental health collapsed and with it my faith disappeared.

Suffering is part of faith. I don't share my experiences to say, "stay away from Christ, it's all awful". I share them to say that you can be miserable, suffering, and in pain but still have some vague desire to seek God. Even if that pain never goes away, you still have to be faithful to what you know to be right. And doing the right thing is often painful because we are fallen and we want all the wrong things.

Even though I find myself without faith now, I want it to come back. That's why I hang around. But I'm not going to whitewash what I've gone through just because it doesn't sound very nice. Some people just don't have an easy time with faith and that's the truth.
But that's the thing Gwen, nobody said otherwise. This thread was about a seeker asking about BC. Thee thread is on some weird tangent now. *shrug* BTW, my prayers for you & your strength & healing. I hope you are delivered from this dark night of the soul you've been experiencing for so long.
 
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Brooklyn Knight

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Even though I find myself without faith now, I want it to come back. That's why I hang around. But I'm not going to whitewash what I've gone through just because it doesn't sound very nice. Some people just don't have an easy time with faith and that's the truth.

If I may inquire, what caused you to lose your faith?
 
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MikeK

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Man, some of the reasons people remain Catholic is just sad and depressing. At least it's not as bad as someone else who said they are Catholic just for the sole fact to irritate other Catholics.

I did not create this system of rules, rewards and punishments. I'm just doing my best to navigate through it.
 
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Irenaeus

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I did not create this system of rules, rewards and punishments. I'm just doing my best to navigate through it.

From the Brothers Karamazov:

Conversations and Exhortations of Father Zossima

(i) Of Hell and Hell Fire, a Mystic Reflection.

Fathers and teachers, I ponder, "What is hell?" I maintain that it is the suffering of being unable to love. Once in infinite existence, immeasurable in time and space, a spiritual creature was given on his coming to earth the power of saying, "I am and I love." Once, only once, there was given him a moment of active lifting love, and for that was earthly life given him, and with it times and seasons. And that happy creature rejected the priceless gift, prized it and loved it not, scorned it and remained callous. Such a one, having left the earth, sees Abraham's bosom and talks with Abraham as we are told in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, and beholds heaven and can go up to the Lord. But that is just his torment, to rise up to the Lord without ever having loved, to be brought close to those who have loved when he has despised their love. For he sees clearly and says to himself, "Now I have understanding, and though I now thirst to love, there will be nothing great, no sacrifice in my love, for my earthly life is over, and Abraham will not come even with a drop of living water (that is the gift of earthly active life) to cool the fiery thirst of spiritual love which burns in me now, though I despised it on earth; there is no more life for me and will be no more time! Even though I would gladly give my life for others, it can never be, for that life is passed which can be sacrificed for love, and now there is a gulf fixed between that life and this existence."

They talk of hell fire in the material sense. I don't go into that mystery and I shun it. But I think if there were fire in material sense, they would be glad of it, for I imagine that in material agony, their still greater spiritual agony would be forgotten for a moment. Moreover, that spiritual agony cannot be taken from them, for that suffering is not external but within them. And if it could be taken from them, I think it would be bitterer still for the unhappy creatures. For even if the righteous in Paradise forgave them, beholding their torments, and called them up to heaven in their infinite love, they would only multiply their torments, for they would arouse in them still more keenly a flaming thirst for responsive, active and grateful love which is now impossible. In the timidity of my heart I imagine, however, that the very recognition of this impossibility would serve at last to console them. For accepting the love of the righteous together with the impossibility of repaying it, by this submissiveness and the effect of this humility, they will attain at last, as it were, to a certain semblance of that active love which they scorned in life, to something like its outward expression... I am sorry, friends and brothers, that I cannot express this clearly....

Oh, there are some who remain proud and fierce even in hell, in spite of their certain knowledge and contemplation of the absolute truth; there are some fearful ones who have given themselves over to Satan and his proud spirit entirely. For such, hell is voluntary and ever consuming; they are tortured by their own choice. For they have cursed themselves, cursing God and life. They live upon their vindictive pride like a starving man in the desert sucking blood out of his own body. But they are never satisfied, and they refuse forgiveness, they curse God Who calls them. They cannot behold the living God without hatred, and they cry out that the God of life should be annihilated, that God should destroy Himself and His own creation. And they will burn in the fire of their own wrath for ever and yearn for death and annihilation. But they will not attain to death...

I highly recommend if you get a chance to study "Participated Theonomy". I highly recommend the "Path to Freedom: Christian Experiences in the Bible" by Jean Corbon, and also an Ignatian Retreat.

I say this because if you want to come to an understanding of how the rules aren't something external which are then imposed on you by God, it's important to have a wider vision of the universe and of all reality as something which fundamentally is ruled by God's love and wisdom. God forbids certain things because these will make us "hard of hearing" to divine love, and unable to give and receive it.

At the risk of sounding mystical, it is based in our interconnectedness in God (because no one can exist without being in his mind, and in his heart). I'm convinced, and it's in the Catholic Tradition, that a soul who dies in mortal sin without repenting has put himself in a state that when God draws him to eternity, he cannot bear the glory and the goodness.

To use a metaphor from being on earth, a cynic is a perfect image of someone who is in a mental "state of hell." They have to some extent despaired of truth and good, and so when they do truly encounter it, they are incensed or reject it instinctively because they are inured to it.
 
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benedictaoo

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The reality is that every Catholic experiences things differently. Some people find faith and are filled with love and peace and charity. For others, faith comes at a hefty price, full of suffering and sadness. I guess the only important thing is that you are faithful in the end. Don't discount some people's experiences just because yours have been relatively happy.

I started out with great joy. I was a teen feeling neglected and so lonely I felt a physical ache for camaraderie. I found a companion in Christ. I studied the faith. I got a BA in theology. Eventually I couldn't handle the burden of knowledge. I was happy when I was ignorant, and I was happy even when I began to learn more and had the ability to correct myself. Somewhere along the line it just became too much. My mental health collapsed and with it my faith disappeared.

Suffering is part of faith. I don't share my experiences to say, "stay away from Christ, it's all awful". I share them to say that you can be miserable, suffering, and in pain but still have some vague desire to seek God. Even if that pain never goes away, you still have to be faithful to what you know to be right. And doing the right thing is often painful because we are fallen and we want all the wrong things.

Even though I find myself without faith now, I want it to come back. That's why I hang around. But I'm not going to whitewash what I've gone through just because it doesn't sound very nice. Some people just don't have an easy time with faith and that's the truth.

Thank you Gwen. I appreciate your post.
 
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MikeK

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If the agony of hell is at all similar to whatever agony I feel today, I would accept it happily. I have it pretty good, and I'm generally happy most of the time - except when I'm fretting about the terrors of hell that have been described in detail by Saints who claim to have been shown it.


From the Brothers Karamazov:



I highly recommend if you get a chance to study "Participated Theonomy". I highly recommend the "Path to Freedom: Christian Experiences in the Bible" by Jean Corbon, and also an Ignatian Retreat.

I say this because if you want to come to an understanding of how the rules aren't something external which are then imposed on you by God, it's important to have a wider vision of the universe and of all reality as something which fundamentally is ruled by God's love and wisdom. God forbids certain things because these will make us "hard of hearing" to divine love, and unable to give and receive it.

At the risk of sounding mystical, it is based in our interconnectedness in God (because no one can exist without being in his mind, and in his heart). I'm convinced, and it's in the Catholic Tradition, that a soul who dies in mortal sin without repenting has put himself in a state that when God draws him to eternity, he cannot bear the glory and the goodness.

To use a metaphor from being on earth, a cynic is a perfect image of someone who is in a mental "state of hell." They have to some extent despaired of truth and good, and so when they do truly encounter it, they are incensed or reject it instinctively because they are inured to it.
 
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benedictaoo

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But that's the thing Gwen, nobody said otherwise. This thread was about a seeker asking about BC. Thee thread is on some weird tangent now. *shrug* BTW, my prayers for you & your strength & healing. I hope you are delivered from this dark night of the soul you've been experiencing for so long.

Its on a tangent because a different non Catholic person seeking to learn came in and was shocked and not in a good way to hear about a few Saints visions, examples, what ever, so you felt the need to water it down for the person instead of standing up for your faith and explain it to them straight forwardly.
 
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benedictaoo

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If the agony of hell is at all similar to whatever agony I feel today, I would accept it happily. I have it pretty good, and I'm generally happy most of the time - except when I'm fretting about the terrors of hell that have been described in detail by Saints who claim to have been shown it.

So you have that fear of hell... this is good. That is what we are trying to do right? Scare the hell out of people.

Look Mike, I'm not an expert theologian but personally, I don't get the fear of hell thing. yeah, God must warn us like the way you must warn your son not to break the law when he grows up or he'll go to jail and there will be little you can do to get him out other then hiring him a good lawyer or bribing a judge... Should your son live in constant fear? No, he just needs to stay out of trouble which for a basically normal person should not be that difficult a task.
 
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Irenaeus

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Your comment reminds me somehow also of these remarks by Soren Kierkegaard, in his Sickness Unto Death:

And, oh, when the hour-glass has run out, the hourglass of time, when the noise of worldliness is silenced, and the restless or the ineffectual busyness comes to an end, when everything is still about thee as it is in eternity -- whether thou wast man or woman, rich or poor, dependent or independent, fortunate or unfortunate, whether thou didst bear the splendor of the crown in a lofty station, or didst bear only the labor and heat of the day in an inconspicuous lot; whether thy name shall be remembered as long as the world stands (and so was remembered as long as the world stood), or without a name thou didst cohere as nameless with the countless multitude; whether the glory which surrounded thee surpassed all human description, or the judgment passed upon thee was the most severe and dishonoring human judgement can pass -- eternity asks of thee and of every individual among these million millions only one question, whether thou hast lived in despair or not, whether thou wast in despair in such a way that thou didst not know thou wast in despair, or in such a way that thou didst hiddenly carry this sickness in thine inward parts as thy gnawing secret, carry it under thy heart as the fruit of a sinful love, or in such a way that thou, a horror to others, didst rave in despair. And if so, if thou hast lived in despair (whether for the rest thou didst win or lose), then for thee all is lost, eternity knows thee not, it never knew thee, or (even more dreadful) it knows thee as thou art known, it puts thee under arrest by thyself in despair.
 
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benedictaoo

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anyway. I do not know why people have difficulties with hell. I do know its hard to reconcile what the mystics says about it and how hard core some/ most of them were. However, if we use ourselves as an analogy and our own children who we love imperfectly and only a tenth of compare to how much God loves us, we should all have enough sense to know God does not send us there out of some punishment. We go there because we choose it. Would we send our kids to some torture that they can never come back from? No. But sometimes in life, we can not control them 100% and they may do something real dumb to put themselves there and we can do nothing to help them.
 
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Michie

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Its on a tangent because a different non Catholic person seeking to learn came in and was shocked and not in a good way to hear about a few Saints visions, examples, what ever, so you felt the need to water it down for the person instead of standing up for your faith and explain it to them straight forwardly.
I didn't water it down. There is no obligation to follow an example of a Saint that let themselves be raped or take their personal revelations as Gospel. Simple as that.
 
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Rhamiel

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I didn't water it down. There is no obligation to follow an example of a Saint that let themselves be raped or take their personal revelations as Gospel. Simple as that.
that is true, we do not have to believe in the personal visions of saints

but I do think that is a good source for information, especially about hell
as long as it does not contradict Catholic doctrine
 
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Michie

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LOL. You are quoting the mystics and Michie and tallguy says we do not have to believe them... like, what do they know? Some medieval stuff meant for their ears only that prove nothing, do nothing. Follow Jesus, he is enough.
Bene I don't know what you aren't getting here. It just seems you want to argue for it's own sake. Nobody else has accused me of saying thing untrue or promoting a watered down version.

I read the writings of the Saints & mystics but their writings & reflections are a bit different than what I was talking about.
 
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Michie

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that is true, we do not have to believe in the personal visions of saints

but I do think that is a good source for information, especially about hell
as long as it does not contradict Catholic doctrine
That's right & I never said any different.
 
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Irenaeus

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LOL. You are quoting the mystics and Michie and tallguy says we do not have to believe them... like, what do they know? Some medieval stuff meant for their ears only that prove nothing, do nothing. Follow Jesus, he is enough.

Are you speaking to me? Because Kierkegaard is a 19th century author and philosopher, and Dostoyvesky was a 20th century author. I'm not so sure that's "medieval," (which generally is considered under most liberal estimates to exist from about 529-1453) but I am sure that literature, like much of culture, helps us to understand the subjective side of spiritual experiences, because they are human beings with hearts, minds, and memories.

I like a phrase by St. Francis de Sales that I regularly repeat about the saints: some saints are supposed to be admired, others to be imitated.

The saints that we admire are ones that do fantastical things. Sometimes their visions aren't meant for us. Some are passed down to us with an admixture of superstition. But we can see in many saints at the same time their humanity touched by grace. It is that which is supposed to inspire us to imitate them, as they imitated Christ. St. Paul said something similar about his own life experience and actions.
 
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